Why is it worth fighting over?

[Iconoclast]

Reynolds,

While Arminians and Calvinists both are motivated to preach the Gospel, it is the theological understanding of both groups that provides their motivation. Their respective theological understanding effects the manner in which the Gospel is presented. Even the content of the message may be different. Let me give you just one example.

Under the Arminian schema the pivotal character in the Gospel presentation is the sinner. Finneyism (named after the 19th century evangelist, Charles Finney) still is the majority position held by Arminians today when it comes to evangelism methods. The Gospel is presented and, to differing degrees, pressure is put on the sinner to make a decision. Whenever you see a church that plays multiple stanzas of "Just as I am" during an altar call, you are witnessing some form or Finneyism at work. Billy Sunday, Billy Graham and Jack Wyrtzen were Finneyistic evangelists (I used the past tense with Billy Graham because his days of public ministry are over due to his age and health).

Under the Reformed Calvinistic schema the pivotal character in the Gospel presentation is Jesus Christ. At its core the Gospel is the proclamation of the Word of God. Whenever the Word of God is proclaimed God is the central character. God is glorified regardless of whether a sinner is converted during a Gospel message. That does mean the Gospel is preached through dry rote. The Gospel still is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes (Romans 1:16). As such it should be preached in power and in truth. Very seldom will you see an altar call in Reformed Calvinistic churches. Why? Because the working of the Holy Spirit in calling sinners to repentance has nothing at all to do with playing on people's emotions. There is no need to give the Holy Spirit some extra time to work. You may see Finneyistic methods used in some neo-Calvinistic churches, but they are not in keeping with the Reformed understanding of biblical evangelism.

:thumbs::wavey::thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

I believe God "tries" to save all sinners.

Gos has never "tried" to do anything. He just flat out accomplishes it. Just like salvation. He has never "tried" to save one single solitary sinner. He saves them...period...

 

[Revmitchell]

Reynolds,

While Arminians and Calvinists both are motivated to preach the Gospel, it is the theological understanding of both groups that provides their motivation. Their respective theological understanding effects the manner in which the Gospel is presented. Even the content of the message may be different. Let me give you just one example.

This could not be more wrong. A very sad and juvenile characterization.

 

[kyredneck]

So, what number is that one on your long list of jerk quips and insults? You're the one that is very sad and juvenile.

Reformed was pretty much spot on. I grew up in a SB church that gave that same wearisome extended appeal to the emotions invitation he described every single time they met, EVEN WHEN IT WAS ONLY MEMBERS PRESENT. RIDICULOUS! It's sickening and ultimately repulses more sheep than it appeals to.

The church is a sheep feeding institution, NOT a sheep manufacturer.

Soooo many of His little lambs have no choice but to eat that which you've fouled with your feet and drink that which you've muddied.

Now THAT'S sad.

 

[Rippon]

This could not be more wrong. A very sad and juvenile characterization.

You are entirely at liberty to disagree with Reformed's post. But to demean it as sad and juvenile it certainly is not. I don't see you rebuking the constant stream vile things that winman and van post --- what's that called? Oh yeah -- hypocrisy.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Gos has never "tried" to do anything. He just flat out accomplishes it. Just like salvation. He has never "tried" to save one single solitary sinner. He saves them...period...

Exactly right.
He wanted to save those whom He foreordained to eternal life, BEFORE Adam's fall, He went and did it, no thanks to anybody but Himself.
He wanted to create a national israel for Himself out of the loins of one man, He went and did it, no thanks to Abraham's willingness and cooperation, either.
He wanted to show He was above death, He went and tasted it, then spewed it out at the grave, no thanks to anybody but Himself.
He wanted to show to His people that He has come, and gone, and is coming back again, He went and did it, through 12 unschooled men, and one converted Pharisee.
He wanted His word preserved for the benefit of His people, He did it, and nothing Satan can do can destroy it while He wants it on this world.
God is NOT a God of plans, He is a God of PURPOSE.

 

[kyredneck]

Amen pinoy!!

 

[Yeshua1]

And which Gospel shall be preached? Limited Atonement or Unlimited Atonement? Irresistible grace or resistible grace? Faith is the gift of God or salvation is the gift of God? Regeneration precedes faith or faith precedes regeneration?

It makes a difference.

A preacher/teacher of the word of God would not be addressing those issues, at least not in giving out the Gospel itself,as the sinner needs to hear the Cross of Christ and His resurrection, and let the Holy Spirit do his work to save those whom God intends to save!

Once saved, then they can go into what the Bible states on atonement/grace/etc!

 

[Yeshua1]

The doctrines of grace are to be used at all times and not hidden under a bushel.This idea is not correct.

the Gospel message would be that Jesus died for sinners, died as our substitute, an that we are justified by his death/resurrection , and that ONLY receiving him thru faith saved us...

DoG important, but are to be seen as important after salvation!

 

[Revmitchell]

You are entirely at liberty to disagree with Reformed's post. But to demean it as sad and juvenile it certainly is not. I don't see you rebuking the constant stream vile things that winman and van post --- what's that called? Oh yeah -- hypocrisy.

Yea it is. It is also blatantly false. He chose to speak for others and place the emphasis in their mind for them. He doesn't know that nor can he. As far as what winman and van post I have commented on them. Van holds to heresy (open theism) and I do not give him the time of day. Winman and I have had several discussions about his posts and his unorthodox views.

I guarantee you even Icon will tell you I do not play favorites.


Anyway reformed's post was just mean spirited and untrue.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is not an accurate statement.

Calvinists believe that the Gospel is the means of salvation. In other words, God has ordained the means by which a person comes to faith in Christ. That means is the preaching of the Gospel. Now, to simplify things let me state that there are two categories of Calvinists. The first are Reformed or Reformed-leaning Calvinists. The second category are mainline, evangelical Calvinists. These are often times called neo-Calvinists because they tend to blend contemporary evangelical praxis with Calvinist theology. The former category see the emphasis on fulfilling the Great Commission, not "we must preach The Gospel to The World." The Great Commission's emphasis is on making disciples, not on decisions for Christ. Disciples do have a moment-in-time conversion, but that is not an end to itself. Reformed Calvinists are concerned about disciple making; maturing in Christ in all aspects. So, it is more than just preaching the Gospel so that a person gets saved.

Agreed, as there are within the church reformed baptists, who hold to the entire Covenant system of theology, and others who would hold to it being mainly regarding Sotierology...

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you believe it is good to go around teaching people that God chooses to pass by a great many people and let them go to hell, and that God does this because it pleases him and brings him glory? Because that is what Calvinists believe, that quote was from the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Maybe you think that is OK, but it is not OK with me at all.

Do you think that you can stand upon judging God as to how he decided to have salvation offerred to lost sinners?
Think paul would agree with me that we cannot do that!

 

[Reformed]

You are entirely at liberty to disagree with Reformed's post. But to demean it as sad and juvenile it certainly is not. I don't see you rebuking the constant stream vile things that winman and van post --- what's that called? Oh yeah -- hypocrisy.

Rippon, it's okay. Really. I knew my post was not going to be well-received by some. I was surprised the esteemed Rev. actually read it. He announced that he blocked me last year. I'm sorry he views my post as sad and juvenile, but that is because I stepped on his presuppositional toes.

 

[kyredneck]

Rippon, it's okay. Really. I knew my post was not going to be well-received by some. I was surprised the esteemed Rev. actually read it. He announced that he blocked me last year. I'm sorry he views my post as sad and juvenile, but that is because I stepped on his presuppositional toes.

'The esteemed Rev'? In his own mind maybe. Specializing in jerk quips and insults does not make one 'esteemed', it reveals their true colors.

 

[InTheLight]

'The esteemed Rev'? In his own mind maybe. Specializing in jerk quips and insults does not make one 'esteemed', it reveals their true colors.

Pot meet kettle.

 

[Revmitchell]

'The esteemed Rev'? In his own mind maybe. Specializing in jerk quips and insults does not make one 'esteemed', it reveals their true colors.

The so called "quirps" are in response to the hate filled mischaracterizations of non cals positions. If you do not like the fact that I call them out then too bad.

 

[Reynolds]

I am quite new to this board and not very familiar with the ins and outs, but my initial observation is that much of the "discussion" on here contains much more venom than brotherly love.

 

[Winman]

Do you think that you can stand upon judging God as to how he decided to have salvation offerred to lost sinners?
Think paul would agree with me that we cannot do that!

My judgment of God is much better than yours. I believe God loves everyone and desires to save everyone. You believe God passes by billions of persons he could save and lets them perish because it pleases him and brings him glory!

And I think you are going to be in for a real shock someday when you find out Paul doesn't agree with your views at all!

 

[kyredneck]

The so called "quirps" are in response to the hate filled mischaracterizations of non cals positions......

Where exactly did Reformed mischaracterize anything? Point it out specifically esteemed one.

 

[Rippon]

The so called "quirps"

He said "quips" not your neologism.

are in response to the hate filled mischaracterizations of non cals positions. If you do not like the fact that I call them out then too bad.

I sense a great deal of hate coming from you. Again, why the hypocrisy?