I know little about music. Doesn't all music have a beat?
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Why Is There Such a Battle OVER MUSIC??
- Thread starter calebreedgordon
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glfredrick
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The music you grew up with in church was most likely written in the 1920s and beyond and was in a good number of cases the product of evangelistic crusades from the likes of Billy Sunday, Dwight L. Moody, and later, Billy Graham. (Who now used/s "rock" music, by the way. I served on his evangelistic campaign when he came to Louisville and he had all the CURRENT modern CCM stars with him.)
Here is a cassette recording of songs used by Billy Sunday. Bet a lot of them are your favorites:
Moody, slightly before Sunday, had Ira Sankey and Fanny Crosby as his chief music people.
My point is that all of that music was a 20th century invention! There is no way that people in your youth sang those same songs for 100 years. They were NEW.
Just for fun, crack open your hymnal next Sunday and check out the dates of the hymns in there. I'm betting that you will be surprised to discover that some of your favorites are not even as old as you (and I'm not calling you old as a perjorative). Gaither's classics, “Because He Lives,” “The King Is Coming,” “Something Beautiful,” “He Touched Me,” “It Is Finished,” “There’s Something About That Name,” “Let’s Just Praise The Lord,” and “Loving God, Loving Each Other." all seem like they are ancient hymns of the faith, but they are all "modern" in that they have all been penned since the time of Elvis!
The truth is, every generation writes a new song of praise and a hymn of faith to Almighty God -- largely inspired by the same Scripture and the similar testimony of the grace and power of God working to redeem lost souls -- the writers express themselves in ways that match their culture and like it or not, culture drifts and changes with time. The TIMELESS TRUTHS that people sing to God, however, do not change.
Interesting you mentioned the Beatles.
Do you know that John (or Paul I don't recall which in my old age) actually went to California to learn how to write songs from Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys.
It was after that trip that the Beatles began to overlay their music using the Beach Boy techniques.
The Beatles returned from the US to find the Beach Boys had actually become more popular in England than they were.
Walking through the store, I occasionally still hear an old Beach Boy tune.
I grew up on ...
Let's me think back....
off the top of my head.....
Donna,
Tammy,
Tennessee Waltz,
Blue Moon,
I Saw the Light,
Earth Angel...
Actually most of the gospel music of the evangelical era of Moody through Sunday were written before the turn of the 20th century.
You actually agree with Gaither!!!!?????
This is the guy that states his music as inspired as the Scriptures??????
What would we do with a preacher or theologian who made such a claim?????
Certainly, he has some good music, but I would not consider much that he wrote as worthy to be classified as a Hymn. Spiritual song, maybe.
I would agree.
There is something touching about hearing the folks of Kenya singing God's praise, especially when a hymn is used. The weird looks when one joins in using English are somewhat comical.
I believe it does...
There is a great number of church songs born out of the need to engage folks in the camp meeting era. A part of the reason the typical Baptist church continues to have an alter call comes from that time.
Most of the true hymns of the church are ancient - written by Watts, Newton, Cowper,...
Those songs were born from a time when music was also a way to instill sound doctrine. For instance, when Issac Watts was a young teen the church generally sang the songs straight out of the psalms. One Sunday, he shared a "revision" of a psalm in verse, and the people were so interested they actually required that he bring a new one each week. So, most of his early work are straight out of the Scriptures.
When "hymnals" were first printed, they were only words with no musical indications. The tunes were generally well known and sung to many different lyrics.
Then, the printing of actual music (think in the times of Philip Bliss) was begun and publishers would higher "teachers" to travel about the countryside teaching note reading (sometimes in the form of shaped notes) to the common folk.
So, as the practice grew, the pamphlets handed out in the camp meetings soon found their way into the church, and eventually the old and new became one.
Unfortunately, unlike the older doctrinally sound words, the new began a trend of "trendy." It wasn't much to think about, but as the decades passed and the roaring twenties came crashing down into depression and WWII, the trendy, soon became more and more what was sung to the neglect of doctrinally sound.
This isn't to say that all the trendy wasn't doctrinally sound, but the depth of When I Survey the Wondrous Cross is far greater than There is NO Secret, and I Shall Know Him is in deep water compared to I'll Fly Away.
I dont know as its a secondary issue in my eyes.
Not being sarcastic at all. The question was not if all music has a beat. The question was "Isn't all music beat driven?".
All music has a beat. The beat should be in support of the song and its message. In the contemporary, LOUD, beat driven music, the beat does not support the song, but drives and dominates it. The LOUD, beat driven sound encourages the "rock and roll" type emotional response, and hinders real worship.
glfredrick
New Member
I've already mentioned Sojourn music in this thread. They did a two CD project where they took Issac Watts hymns and set them to rearranged melodies. The old becomes new again, and is just as powerful.
I should toss out the caveat here about hymns... I am definitly not against hymns. Love 'em!
But, I am against a church that remains locked into a culture that no longer exists when they neither have to nor is it any longer profitable to do so (and I'm talking about kingdom work, not money-making). Just as ALL hymns were once new, so too is a new generation of hymns, spiritual songs, and Scripture set to music.
We're talking PREFERENCE here, not gospel, for many of the newer hymns of faith are as much or more gospel than older varieties, especially those that tend to be anthropologically centered instead of centering on God.
I should toss out the caveat here about hymns... I am definitly not against hymns. Love 'em!
But, I am against a church that remains locked into a culture that no longer exists when they neither have to nor is it any longer profitable to do so (and I'm talking about kingdom work, not money-making). Just as ALL hymns were once new, so too is a new generation of hymns, spiritual songs, and Scripture set to music.
We're talking PREFERENCE here, not gospel, for many of the newer hymns of faith are as much or more gospel than older varieties, especially those that tend to be anthropologically centered instead of centering on God.
Ok, then the question becomes (and it seem like a lot of this is opinionated), what is "LOUD"? Many would state that "LOUD" is a matter of opinion, i.e. what you would consider LOUD I might not consider LOUD, and what I consider LOUD someone else might not consider LOUD.
So would you say that a song that has a beat that a person wants to tap their foot, or clap their hands to would be encouraging the "rock and roll" type of emotional response, and thus hindering real worship?
seekingthetruth
New Member
If a church is using pop themed music to lure people in then i think it is wrong.
Alot of our hymns were derived from pop music in the past, i realise that. But today our pop music is so filled with sex that we associate pop music with sex.
I have been to a couple of churches that actually have a "grundge" or "hard rock" band as their music venue. Do the kids come to hear the Word of God, or just the music?
One megachurch in Cal has venues for worship like heavy metal, yoga, cabaret, nightclub, or pop. Where does it stop?
I am not saying that new music is bad, but when it includes a grundge band with hard rock guitars, tattoos, and mulitple body piersings, then it is a little over the top.
John
Alot of our hymns were derived from pop music in the past, i realise that. But today our pop music is so filled with sex that we associate pop music with sex.
I have been to a couple of churches that actually have a "grundge" or "hard rock" band as their music venue. Do the kids come to hear the Word of God, or just the music?
One megachurch in Cal has venues for worship like heavy metal, yoga, cabaret, nightclub, or pop. Where does it stop?
I am not saying that new music is bad, but when it includes a grundge band with hard rock guitars, tattoos, and mulitple body piersings, then it is a little over the top.
John
Woody writes:
"So would you say that a song that has a beat that a person wants to tap their foot, or clap their hands to would be encouraging the "rock and roll" type of emotional response, and thus hindering real worship?"
Of course not. Apparently you did not carefully read my post about what beat driven music is; or you have not been in a church that has loud, beat driven music.
Beat Driven Music - All music has a beat. The beat should be in support of the song and its message. In the contemporary, LOUD, beat driven music, the beat does not support the song, but drives and dominates it. The LOUD, beat driven sound encourages the "rock and roll" type emotional response, and hinders real worship.
"So would you say that a song that has a beat that a person wants to tap their foot, or clap their hands to would be encouraging the "rock and roll" type of emotional response, and thus hindering real worship?"
Of course not. Apparently you did not carefully read my post about what beat driven music is; or you have not been in a church that has loud, beat driven music.
Beat Driven Music - All music has a beat. The beat should be in support of the song and its message. In the contemporary, LOUD, beat driven music, the beat does not support the song, but drives and dominates it. The LOUD, beat driven sound encourages the "rock and roll" type emotional response, and hinders real worship.
Is it true that a lot of African music is what you describe as beat driven? When they come to America they are shocked at such a weak church. I do not see any connection with "beat driven music" and lack of drive and commitment to Christ.
There was a time when women could not wear pants and a dress must not show her ankles.
America is one of the leaders in pornography. It is also one of the leaders in church attendance rates. Any correlation between chruch attendance and pornography?
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seekingthetruth
New Member
That is the region where early Christianity was. However I am talking about today, such places as Ethiopia.
seekingthetruth
New Member
Somalia is right next to Ethiopia, and we have about 5500 somilians here in the town i live in.....I dont know any who are Christian, though I am sure some are. They are for the most part die-hard muslims.
They pretty much hate Christians here...they just want our money
John
There is a difference between Islam and Christianity. It would help if you were study early church history. Study some of the early church pastors and notice where they lived. What you are saying in essence that Mexico is the same as the U.S.
Then we're back to the earlier question.
What is LOUD? At what point (perhaps a certain decibel range) does music become LOUD and change from music with a beat, to beat driven music?
A second question would be; what would you say to those who continue to worship even with LOUD, beat driven sound?
And another question comes to mind. Is worship supposed to be a
non-emotional thing? Do we not go through a range of emotions when we worship?
First of all, I wanted to quote this well stated statement.
Worship music is about worship. Worship music is about worshiping God. So often we focus on ourselves instead of God. Here's how I approach a song.
First, look at the words. Do they glorify God or man? I've heard "good" Christian songs that are in some hymnbooks that glorify man and not God. They have become accepted over time and no one things about it. And really, that's a major issue today in that people don't pay attention to the songs, specifically the words. Are the words shallow words? I'm not speaking of simple. Some songs have a very simple message. I'm speaking of shallow. (Yes, I know that's subjective) What I'm mainly speaking of is the "Jesus is my boyfriend" type of songs. Obviously, do the songs have correct doctrine? If a song teaches incorrect doctrine, it shouldn't be sung in your church.
Once the words are considered good, then does the music help uplift the words? The words are the primary part of a worship song. Does the music help that or distract from the words and their message? This will be more subjective the the first section on words.
Lastly, style. This will be very subjective, but obviously we want a style that we believe will honor our Lord Jesus Christ. We don't want to pick a style simply because it's popular or we like it. It's about God, and not man.
Worship music is about worship. Worship music is about worshiping God. So often we focus on ourselves instead of God. Here's how I approach a song.
First, look at the words. Do they glorify God or man? I've heard "good" Christian songs that are in some hymnbooks that glorify man and not God. They have become accepted over time and no one things about it. And really, that's a major issue today in that people don't pay attention to the songs, specifically the words. Are the words shallow words? I'm not speaking of simple. Some songs have a very simple message. I'm speaking of shallow. (Yes, I know that's subjective) What I'm mainly speaking of is the "Jesus is my boyfriend" type of songs. Obviously, do the songs have correct doctrine? If a song teaches incorrect doctrine, it shouldn't be sung in your church.
Once the words are considered good, then does the music help uplift the words? The words are the primary part of a worship song. Does the music help that or distract from the words and their message? This will be more subjective the the first section on words.
Lastly, style. This will be very subjective, but obviously we want a style that we believe will honor our Lord Jesus Christ. We don't want to pick a style simply because it's popular or we like it. It's about God, and not man.
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