Why James White Is Sick of The Calvinist Club

[Reynolds]

Hmmmm. Isn't that the opposite of an oxymoron?

When you say "extreme sovereignty" doesn't that presuppose a "partial sovereignty" which seems to me to be a contradiction in term?

God is either sovereign or He is not. There is no "extreme" or "partial." There is only His Sovereignty. Is He all powerful (Omnipotent) or not?

Extreme being how one views His exercise of Sovereignty. God being sovereign does not mean He chooses to control every minute detail in His creation.

 

[InTheLight]

The part that I bolded was the part where Satan was allowed to do whatever he wanted to do except touch Jobs life. God controlled the events, Satan did what he wanted to do......do you think killing his family was a good deed?

The part I underlined in the quote by John Calvin is where he says God commands evil to happen. Commands it to happen. That is a step beyond simply controlling it. Or as you Calvinists like to say, this is God's decretive will, not simply his permissive will.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[Iconoclast]

The part I underlined in the quote by John Calvin is where he says God commands evil to happen. Commands it to happen. That is a step beyond simply controlling it. Or as you Calvinists like to say, this is God's decretive will, not simply his permissive will.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

I believe you are not understanding the quote correctly...God is in complete control of even the evil acts of evil men...acts2:23

 

[InTheLight]

I believe you are not understanding the quote correctly...God is in complete control of even the evil acts of evil men...acts2:23

The quote by John Calvin says these evils acts do not occur unless God commands them. I think it is you that does not understand.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[thatbrian]

As usual...you have no idea what you are talking about

Yup.

 

[thatbrian]

Why James White Is Sick of The Calvinist Club

If the "Calvinist club" is what ignorant Pelagians and Semi-Pelagians use to bash Calvinists over the head with, I'm sick of it too.

 

[JonC]

The part I underlined in the quote by John Calvin is where he says God commands evil to happen. Commands it to happen. That is a step beyond simply controlling it. Or as you Calvinists like to say, this is God's decretive will, not simply his permissive will.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

I also see Calvin as making God the ultimate source of evil as he denies, on no uncertain terms, a divine permissive will. That said, the Canons of Dort (which most here have accepted as defining "Calvinism" across denominations) also address the issue and denies (again, on no uncertain terms) that God authors evil.

The reason I source the Canons rather than the Institutes is that (from what I gather on this forum) Calvinists here do not view Calvin as an authority when it comes to their faith, but they do view the five points as expressed at the Synod as descriptive of what they believe.

 

[thatbrian]

I also see Calvin as making God the ultimate source of evil as he denies, on no uncertain terms, a divine permissive will. That said, the Canons of Dort (which most here have accepted as defining "Calvinism" across denominations) also address the issue and denies (again, on no uncertain terms) that God authors evil.

The reason I source the Canons rather than the Institutes is that (from what I gather on this forum) Calvinists here do not view Calvin as an authority when it comes to their faith, but they do view the five points as expressed at the Synod as descriptive of what they believe.

The question of why there is evil is a very difficult one to wrestle with. Why and how did beings which were created perfectly, become evil?

Regarding mankind, I don't think a reasonable person would argue that God knew that what happened in the Garden before He created it. That pushes beyond the definition of "allow", but it also does not get anywhere near, "cause".

 

[JonC]

The question of why there is evil is a very difficult one to wrestle with. Why and how did beings which were created perfectly, become evil?

Regarding mankind, I don't think a reasonable person would argue that God knew that what happened in the Garden before He created it. That pushes beyond the definition of "allow", but it also does not get anywhere near, "cause".

Another interesting idea is Christ as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8) and that all things were created for God's own glory. This seems to imply that man was created, in one sense, to fall (as it is through this that God would ultimately be glorified and Christ given a name above every name).

My argument would be that men were created as men. The command which Adam transgressed was akin to the Law which Israel transgressed. It demonstrated man's own sinfulness. The is not whether Adam was created as a perfect being (he was) but a matter of the will (Adam chose, and men choose, to place their desires - their will - over God's will). I say this because Eve desired the fruit before she ate and Adam was tempted prior to acting on that temptation. In this way, I think it reasonable to consider that the Fall evidenced man's state rather than, or at least just as much as, creating it.

 

[The Archangel]

Regarding mankind, I don't think a reasonable person would argue that God knew that what happened in the Garden before He created it. That pushes beyond the definition of "allow", but it also does not get anywhere near, "cause".

Can you explain this further? I agree that the Fall was somewhere between "allow" and "cause," but I would have to argue that God does indeed know that Man will sin.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Reynolds]

The quote by John Calvin says these evils acts do not occur unless God commands them. I think it is you that does not understand.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Calvinists are experts at word games. Reminds me of Bill Clinton and the "definition of is."

 

[Reynolds]

The question of why there is evil is a very difficult one to wrestle with. Why and how did beings which were created perfectly, become evil?

Regarding mankind, I don't think a reasonable person would argue that God knew that what happened in the Garden before He created it. That pushes beyond the definition of "allow", but it also does not get anywhere near, "cause".

Did God create everything that was created?
Can created Lucifer have the ability to do evil without God creating that ability in him?
Can created man have the ability to do evil without Sovereign God creating that ability in him?
God gave Adam a free choice as to whether or not He would sin?
God will not give man a free choice as to whether or not he will be saved?

 

[Reynolds]

Another interesting idea is Christ as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8) and that all things were created for God's own glory. This seems to imply that man was created, in one sense, to fall (as it is through this that God would ultimately be glorified and Christ given a name above every name).

My argument would be that men were created as men. The command which Adam transgressed was akin to the Law which Israel transgressed. It demonstrated man's own sinfulness. The is not whether Adam was created as a perfect being (he was) but a matter of the will (Adam chose, and men choose, to place their desires - their will - over God's will). I say this because Eve desired the fruit before she ate and Adam was tempted prior to acting on that temptation. In this way, I think it reasonable to consider that the Fall evidenced man's state rather than, or at least just as much as, creating it.

That would mean God created man in a sinful state?

 

[Reynolds]

I believe you are not understanding the quote correctly...God is in complete control of even the evil acts of evil men...acts2:23

If God is in "complete control of the evil acts of men," then that logically makes man a mere puppet. "Complete control" would be puppet master.

 

[The Archangel]

If God is in "complete control of the evil acts of men," then that logically makes man a mere puppet. "Complete control" would be puppet master.

Well, if He's not in complete control of the evil acts of men, then you must--at some point--become an Open Theist.

Of course, God is in control of even the sin done by men. We see this in Genesis 50 where Joseph tells his brothers: What you intended for evil, God intended for good. The brothers intend evil toward Joseph of their own free will, yet they do exactly as God has intended for them to do. God super-intends the free and sometimes sinful actions of man for His glory and our good.

The Archangel

 

[JonC]

That would mean God created man in a sinful state?

No, not at all. We are tempted by our desires. When we give in to our desires over God's will this gives birth to sin.

Adam was tempted and carried away by His own lust, which once conceived gave birth to sin and brought forth death.

In other words, Adam sinned in his given nature. He did not fall and then sin, but through his sin death entered the world. Scripture does not present Adam's nature as changing before he sinned (the change afterwards was a knowledge of good and evil).

 

[delizzle]

Yes, but I must have missed that part where God commands Satan to do evil. Can you point that out?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Job?

 

[Yeshua1]

Some calvies claim God is the author of evil.

ONLY Hyper calvinists, and they would not even be regarded as being real calvinists!

 

[Yeshua1]

there have been a number of them on this board over the years. Further, it is far more likely that a calvy will hold to God authors evil then it is anyone else holding to open theism. One is very common the other is not.

I have NEVER read anyone who claimed that God was the cause/author of sin, have you?

 

[Yeshua1]

He said it's more likely that a Calvinist believe God the author of evil than a non-Cal hold to open theism. But "more likely", even if true, doesn't justify attributing that idea to the whole. For example, I could say that a non-Calvinist is more likely to reject Penal Substitution Atonement (which is true). But I would be wrong to act as if non-Calvinists as a whole do so.

Even if 95% of Calvinists believed God authored evil (which I doubt is true), the fact that Calvinistic doctrine (the Canons of Dort) teaches otherwise negates such a claim. @Revmitchell is right that some Calvinists demonize non-Calvinists. But he is wrong to go beyond Calvinistic doctrine (which specifically states that God is in no way the author of sin) in order to demonize Calvinism.

I do not know any of the "official" Confessions of reformed faith that tell us that God authored Sin, is there one that does?