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Why Jesus Said "I Never Knew You"?

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Hark

Well-Known Member
I think your making it way more complicated than it needs to be. There are two types of people in the world. Those who are obedient and those who are disobedient. That's it. The obedient follow the commands of Christ. They are the mourners, the merciful, the meek, etc etc

Can you explain how this reference does not apply to those looking to themselves to finish His works by the religious flesh like keeping a commitment or promises to do His work in us to do good?

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage....5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
 

Bob Hope

Member
Actually, Jesus was noting what little faith they had since they were not applying that faith in areas of their concern.



A lot of religious people do good works and they are the ones that usually get praises from men and not God the Father.

So it is about seeing the light of Christ in us by our works, and they can't see that unless we declare our faith in Him as our Good Shepherd as to why and how we are doing good works which is by His power & love.



One tried to use that reference as meaning that these believers thought they were justified by doing all of these works in His name as a way of saying that they were not saved, but that was not what Jesus was talking about either. You have to read Matthew 7:13-27 & Luke 13:24-30 in context with each other to see the message and warning given to saved believers about false prophets coming in to lead others astray.

He has led me to discern that He was talking about all of these "movement of the Spirit" where wayward believers seek to receive the Holy Ghost again after a sensational sign in the flesh, even tongues that comes with no interpretation which is not of Him at all. In these movements, many houses have fallen.

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: ........



Note the term "reward" in the scriptural reference of your quote above.



You bold the word "works, but fail to heed what Jesus is asking for us to do: and that is to believe in Him because of those works.



Again, James was not talking about the saving faith in Jesus Christ. By one of the examples by referring to Abraham, we can see this by the event of his offering up his son as a sacrifice. Let every one know now what faith James was referring to as this was about God's Providence.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.......
13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

James being once of the Jews, knew what he was referring to the O.T. that was widely known by all Jews was to Abraham's faith in His Providence.

Thus James was rebuking the church verbalizing their faith in God's providence in getting out of helping the poor from the bounty collected after church service. James was not talking about any other kind of faith in regard to his rebuke to the church's actions towards the poor starting at the beginning of chapter 2.
Can you explain how this reference does not apply to those looking to themselves to finish His works by the religious flesh like keeping a commitment or promises to do His work in us to do good?

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage....5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.




What did Christ tell the Pharisees?

He said if they were the sons of Abraham they would do the works of Abraham. Now I'm sure we will both agree that the Pharisees made sure they had works for all to see but that's not what Christ was talking about. Pure works. What's the difference between an obedient child and a disobedient child? You seem quick to explain away the verses on works yet the bible says we will be tried on those works. It says that the unprofitable servant will be cast into hell. I'm not sure how much clearer it can be???
 

Hark

Well-Known Member
Nobody can take us away from Jesus but He does not hold us there against our will. That's why there is such a thing as apostasy.

Pre-trib is not 'hidden', it is non-existent and based on wild escapist assumptions. All animals are averse to pain and this is why it has gained currency, but it is a total fabrication.

You really think believers during the great tribulation will have temptations that we find in daily life now as a snare when they need the mark of the beast to buy and sell to survive?

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So there is an escape and it is to stand before the Son of man in Heaven where Jesus is now. John 14:1-3

Jesus warned about how the snares of this life can make a believer excuse himself from attending the King's supper. Luke 14:15-24

Luke testified that Jesus expounded on that snare on what discipleship will cost a saved believer and that is to be prepared to leave this life down here by not loving anything nor any one more than Him in Luke 14:25-33.

There is more if the Lord is ministering for you to see.
 

Hark

Well-Known Member
What did Christ tell the Pharisees?

He said if they were the sons of Abraham they would do the works of Abraham. Now I'm sure we will both agree that the Pharisees made sure they had works for all to see but that's not what Christ was talking about. Pure works. What's the difference between an obedient child and a disobedient child? You seem quick to explain away the verses on works yet the bible says we will be tried on those works. It says that the unprofitable servant will be cast into hell. I'm not sure how much clearer it can be???

Here are the works of Abraham which was believing God. Paul had understood this, and had written of this too.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
 

Bob Hope

Member
W
Here are the works of Abraham which was believing God. Paul had understood this, and had written of this too.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


Why does everyone run to Paul's verses to try to explain what Christ, James and John said so plainly? It's very very simple. Be righteous. Do good. Stay away from sin. Shun evil. Repent of sins.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Again, Paul is pointing out the consequence for that saved believer in being overcome with sin in this life; not the next.

2 Peter 3:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

A dog can't return to his vomit in hell. Paul is addressing a carnal believer in how he was before he had gotten saved to the latter end when overcome in this life.

He is still saved as that would be akin to just putting wood, stubble, and hay on that foundation as 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 testifies in verse 15.

He would be the prodigal son that gave up the first inheritance of being that vessel unto honor in His House for wild living into becoming a vessel unto dishonor in His House for not looking to Him for help to depart from iniquity, but he is still son.



Note how “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” is testifying to that they are still His people.

Also FYI in context, Hebrews 10th chapter's sinning willfully part is about after having the knowledge that there is no more sacrifice for sins. The sin is believing and practicing that believers need another continual sacrifice for sins, thus treating the Son's blood of the New Covenant on par with the blood of goats and bulls that bears repeating.

So basically, those who partake of the Mass and communion thinking they are actually receiving that same one time sacrifice for sins "again" is going to get it, unless they repent, but they are still His people.



The thing is; Paul was warning Galatians that they will not inherit the kingdom of God as vessels unto honor in His House, and be left behind as castaway and thus becoming vessel unto dishonors, BUT they are still in His House. Paul explains this better below.

2 Timothy 2: 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So what is a vessel unto dishonor that is in His House? A saved believer having His seal that did not depart from iniquity, and that includes former believers that have erred from the truth and had their faith overthrown.

The call to depart from iniquity still goes to former believers to go before that throne of grace for help in discernment and wisdom to believe again.



The problem with Judas Isacriot was that he had never believed in the first place.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

It was because of what Simon Peter had said in speaking for the remaining disciples that Jesus pointed out that one of them did not believe in Him and would betray him.

Also; The rest of the disciples were not officially saved until Pentecost when Jesus was no longer present with them but at the right hand of God the Father as a condition for receiving the promise from the Father of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost as discussed in John 14th chapter.


Concerning Judas.

There are separate requirements to being a Apostle, Bishop and Disciple. All of which would have to be met so that Jesus would not commit a sacrilege of putting a child of Satan in the highest office.

Acts1
20For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Acts 1
25to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”

He can't dump it or fall if he never had it. If he never had it why do they even speak of REPLACING Judas when they are not replacing anything at all?

1 Timothy 3
1This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.



Judas was INDEED a APOSTLE. Notice below it doesn't say here the names of the Eleven apostles and a TRAITOR.

Matthew 10
2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


Judas had the Spirit of HIS FATHER, GOD ALMIGHTY, speak through him.

20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

The apostles are WARNED of things and only those who ENDURE shall be saved.

22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

I wonder if one of them did not endure to the end......


5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them

Shouldn't it say These Eleven?


Matthew 19
27Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” 28And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29“And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. 30“But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.

Jesus talking to his Eleven, I mean Twelve Apostles. He promises them in the regeneration Eleven, I mean Twelve Thrones.Biggrin
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Again focusing on the word BETRAYAL and TRAITOR. Implies he was actually on the same team. When Jesus quotes
18“I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.’
What scripture is being fulfilled here? Jesus is quoting psalms:
PSALM 41: 9Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
Jesus did not befriend a Child of Satan. One time Judas was GOOD. FRIEND, TRUSTED FRIEND.
We see all these warnings about the devil.
1 peter 5
8Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Peter ought to know he saw it happen. If the saved are saved PERIOD, there is no point in giving warnings.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Concerning Judas.

There are separate requirements to being a Apostle, Bishop and Disciple. All of which would have to be met so that Jesus would not commit a sacrilege of putting a child of Satan in the highest office.
Two points: firstly, Judas was the 'son of perdition' (John 17:12, NKJV) or 'doomed to destruction' (NIV). He 'by transgression fell that he might go to his own place.' (Acts 1:25). He was indeed a child of Satan.
Secondly, consider 1 John 2:19. 'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.' The Lord Jesus Christ will not lose even one of those whom the Father has given Him (John 6:37-39), therefore if someone who has made a Christian profession is lost, it is because his profession was false.
utilyan said:
If the saved are saved PERIOD, there is no point in giving warnings.
This is a misunderstanding. All the elect of God will be saved (eg. John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:38), but they will only be saved as they follow Christ and heed the warnings of the Bible. If they fail to do these things it is because they are not born of the Spirit and therefore not of the elect.
 
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Hark

Well-Known Member
Why does everyone run to Paul's verses to try to explain what Christ, James and John said so plainly? It's very very simple. Be righteous. Do good. Stay away from sin. Shun evil. Repent of sins.

Not for salvation, but for being His disciple by abiding in Him to bear fruit.

That is why we go to others because people can get lost in the meaning of His words, thinking it is about how we save ourselves when it is about running that race by faith in Jesus Christ to finish by helping us to live as His disciple.

Jesus said many times how we are saved which is by simply believing in Him; and He told us how we are not saved which is by NOT believing in Him.

Therefore without being contrary to the Good News to man, you have to discern that all His teachings on how to live as His is for being His disciple... not for earning salvation or keeping it. If one works for salvation or runs to keep their salvation, then they are denying Him as their Saviour when they are saved simply for believing in Him.
 

vooks

Active Member
You really think believers during the great tribulation will have temptations that we find in daily life now as a snare when they need the mark of the beast to buy and sell to survive?

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So there is an escape and it is to stand before the Son of man in Heaven where Jesus is now. John 14:1-3

Jesus warned about how the snares of this life can make a believer excuse himself from attending the King's supper. Luke 14:15-24

Luke testified that Jesus expounded on that snare on what discipleship will cost a saved believer and that is to be prepared to leave this life down here by not loving anything nor any one more than Him in Luke 14:25-33.

There is more if the Lord is ministering for you to see.

Pre-trib is a hollow concoction with zero basis in the scriptures. It is escapist at its core.

Little wonder it was non-existent until the turn of 20th century.

It is unfortunate that you confuse theories and modern traditions of God with God ministering. Sad.

Do me a favor and show me rapture/resurrection of the saints from Revelation. Where is this most glorious event captured in the last book?
 

Hark

Well-Known Member
Concerning Judas.

There are separate requirements to being a Apostle, Bishop and Disciple. All of which would have to be met so that Jesus would not commit a sacrilege of putting a child of Satan in the highest office.

Acts1
20For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Acts 1
25to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”

He can't dump it or fall if he never had it. If he never had it why do they even speak of REPLACING Judas when they are not replacing anything at all?

1 Timothy 3
1This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Do note one of the requirements in your quote above was not to be greedy of filthy lucre.

John 12:4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

Therefore Judas falls under as a false apostle.


2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Judas was INDEED a APOSTLE. Notice below it doesn't say here the names of the Eleven apostles and a TRAITOR.

Matthew 10
2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

You did not read verse 4 all the way.

Mathew 10:4Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Judas had the Spirit of HIS FATHER, GOD ALMIGHTY, speak through him.

20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

The apostles are WARNED of things and only those who ENDURE shall be saved.

22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

I wonder if one of them did not endure to the end......


5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them

Shouldn't it say These Eleven?

Matthew 19
27Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” 28And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29“And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. 30“But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.

Jesus talking to his Eleven, I mean Twelve Apostles. He promises them in the regeneration Eleven, I mean Twelve Thrones.Biggrin

Pay attention to verse 28.

Matthew 19:28And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas in his heart was not following Jesus. He was just there for the money, because he was a thief.

Did not Jesus testify that one of them believed not and would betray Him? That was before Judas had done it. Jesus knew Judas was a traitor before he did it.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Yes... Judas was one of the twelve disciples and one of the twelve apostles chosen by Jesus but still Jesus knew Judas did not believe in Him, nor did he cared about the poor because he was a thief holding the bag for the collection of the poor, and was of the devil as Jesus said.

Do note that the remaining disciples were not saved until Pentecost, therefore what they and Judas had received was a temporary indwelling Holy Ghost. The promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost was not given until Jesus was glorified when He had ascended above.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
 

Hark

Well-Known Member
Again focusing on the word BETRAYAL and TRAITOR. Implies he was actually on the same team. When Jesus quotes
18“I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.’
What scripture is being fulfilled here? Jesus is quoting psalms:
PSALM 41: 9Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
Jesus did not befriend a Child of Satan. One time Judas was GOOD. FRIEND, TRUSTED FRIEND.
We see all these warnings about the devil.
1 peter 5
8Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Peter ought to know he saw it happen. If the saved are saved PERIOD, there is no point in giving warnings.

The warnings from Jesus is about the cost of discipleship. It cannot be about salvation.

If you are not saved yet or that you might lose your salvation, then Jesus Christ cannot be the Good News to man nor can any one claim Him as their Saviour yet if it is only a possibility.

Can you hear the preaching now?

"Hey? Have you heard the Good News? Well, it might be a good news. Then again, you will not know until you are in Heaven. You know what? Never mind."

I doubt the church would have gotten far preaching the gospel like that.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Two points: firstly, Judas was the 'son of perdition' (John 17:12, NKJV) or 'doomed to destruction' (NIV). He 'by transgression fell that he might go to his own place.' (Acts 1:25). He was indeed a child of Satan.
Secondly, consider 1 John 2:19. 'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.' The Lord Jesus Christ will not lose even one of those whom the Father has given Him (John 6:37-39), therefore if someone who has made a Christian profession is lost, it is because his profession was false.

This is a misunderstanding. All the elect of God will be saved (eg. John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:38), but they will only be saved as they follow Christ and heed the warnings of the Bible. If they fail to do these things it is because they are not born of the Spirit and therefore not of the elect.


God's forgiveness only falls on the elect? God's forgiveness only falls on the saved?

Satan is not very creative, best he can do is run whatever God does backwards.
One of these verses below is absolutely true, One is backwards.

Matthew 6
14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

OR

14For if heavenly Father forgive your trespasses, you will also forgive their trespasses: 15But if Father doesn't forgive not your trespasses, neither will you forgive men their trespasses.

^Pick one.


One of these is from mouth of Christ and God-breathed scripture. The other is BACKWARDS and false.

Edit: When I hear a boo-hoo I'm saved Testimony I expect to hear how God forgave you allowed you to be born again...........AFTER you forgave everyone else.
 
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Bob Hope

Member
Not for salvation, but for being His disciple by abiding in Him to bear fruit.

That is why we go to others because people can get lost in the meaning of His words, thinking it is about how we save ourselves when it is about running that race by faith in Jesus Christ to finish by helping us to live as His disciple.

Jesus said many times how we are saved which is by simply believing in Him; and He told us how we are not saved which is by NOT believing in Him.

Therefore without being contrary to the Good News to man, you have to discern that all His teachings on how to live as His is for being His disciple... not for earning salvation or keeping it. If one works for salvation or runs to keep their salvation, then they are denying Him as their Saviour when they are saved simply for believing in Him.
 

Hark

Well-Known Member
Two points: firstly, Judas was the 'son of perdition' (John 17:12, NKJV) or 'doomed to destruction' (NIV). He 'by transgression fell that he might go to his own place.' (Acts 1:25). He was indeed a child of Satan.
Secondly, consider 1 John 2:19. 'They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.' The Lord Jesus Christ will not lose even one of those whom the Father has given Him (John 6:37-39), therefore if someone who has made a Christian profession is lost, it is because his profession was false.

This is a misunderstanding. All the elect of God will be saved (eg. John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:38), but they will only be saved as they follow Christ and heed the warnings of the Bible. If they fail to do these things it is because they are not born of the Spirit and therefore not of the elect.

I think it is important to note when the remaining disciples were saved, and that was at Pentecost when Jesus was no longer among them in sending the promise of the Father from above.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Judas never had that promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost prophesied about in John 14th chapter because Jesus was present when they had received this temporary dwelling of the Holy Ghost in Matthew 10 and more importantly, Judas Iscariot was never a believer.
 

Hark

Well-Known Member
Pre-trib is a hollow concoction with zero basis in the scriptures. It is escapist at its core.

Little wonder it was non-existent until the turn of 20th century.

It is unfortunate that you confuse theories and modern traditions of God with God ministering. Sad.

Just pointing out why it is hidden as you say there is nothing hidden, and why we need His help to see it. Feel free to explain Matthew 13:33 then.

Do me a favor and show me rapture/resurrection of the saints from Revelation. Where is this most glorious event captured in the last book?

Revelation 14 testify to a special choir that was a part of the pre trib rapture where 144,000 virgin men that were redeemed from the earth shall perform in as they will follow Jesus everywhere. There are others, of course, but this reference is significant.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

What follows is the 3 angels setting up the hour of trial that shall try all remaining on the earth.

To confirm the firstfruits as the pre trib saints; again I reference;

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

So saints will be made alive every one in his own order; Christ the firstfruits and THEN the next order... they that be Christ's at His coming.

That is what the Book of Revelation is about, calling the bride by addressing each of the seven churches to get ready to go because the Bridegroom is coming.
 

Hark

Well-Known Member
God's forgiveness only falls on the elect? God's forgiveness only falls on the saved?

Satan is not very creative, best he can do is run whatever God does backwards.
One of these verses below is absolutely true, One is backwards.

Matthew 6
14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

OR

14For if heavenly Father forgive your trespasses, you will also forgive their trespasses: 15But if Father doesn't forgive not your trespasses, neither will you forgive men their trespasses.

^Pick one.


One of these is from mouth of Christ and God-breathed scripture. The other is BACKWARDS and false.

Edit: When I hear a boo-hoo I'm saved Testimony I expect to hear how God forgave you allowed you to be born again...........AFTER you forgave everyone else.

Any saved believer in iniquity, can be left behind unless they repent.

If you please... please take note of how one becomes a vessel unto honor in His House by purging himself of iniquity, then it stands to reasons that the vessel unto dishonor are the ones that did not depart from iniquity even though they are saved as they are still in His House to be received later on after the great tribulation.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Explain these passages if you believe I am applying this wrong.
 

Hark

Well-Known Member
What did Christ tell the Pharisees?

He said if they were the sons of Abraham they would do the works of Abraham. Now I'm sure we will both agree that the Pharisees made sure they had works for all to see but that's not what Christ was talking about. Pure works. What's the difference between an obedient child and a disobedient child? You seem quick to explain away the verses on works yet the bible says we will be tried on those works. It says that the unprofitable servant will be cast into hell. I'm not sure how much clearer it can be???

I hope the truth in this song will be clearer to you. This is to His glory.

 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Matthew 6
14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

OR

14For if heavenly Father forgive your trespasses, you will also forgive their trespasses: 15But if Father doesn't forgive not your trespasses, neither will you forgive men their trespasses.

^Pick one.
I pick both, for both are true. The second does not appear in the Bible in so many words, but it is there for those who have eyes to see.

'I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My commandments and do them' (Ezek. 36:26-27).

'I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing' (John 15:5).

'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast. For we are Christ's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them' (Eph. 2:8-10).

Now the point is not to say, "Here are 100 texts that say salvation by works and only 75 that say salvation by grace" or vice versa. The point is to reconcile God's perfect infallible word and see how it doesn't contradict itself. The devil himself can quote Scripture (Matthew 3:6) and the truth of the Bible is not found in 'it is written' but in 'It is written again' (Matthew 3:7).
 
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