Romans nine: says it was clearly before they were born Jacob have I loved Esau have I hated just while twins in the womb neither having done any good or evil at the purpose of God according to election might stand:thumbsup:
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Why man hates the Gospel Truth of Election !
- Thread starter savedbymercy
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Romans nine: says it was clearly before they were born Jacob have I loved Esau have I hated just while twins in the womb neither having done any good or evil at the purpose of God according to election might stand:thumbsup:
Then my conclusion is correct, but you call it absurd. Calvinist have God hating a great portion of His Creation before He ever created it, and for no reason whatsoever. But the Scripture states God created and seen His Creation as very good.
Padre, that was my very first thought when I read the OP.
Salty
PS but you were "elected" in Post # 953
your conclusion is wrong because you keep ascribing to Calvinist what the Scripture itself says and Calvinists are the ones that believe it if you don't like what God has decided to do that's between you and God
I will answer more in detail in a couple of hours when I stop driving
pd, I do not agree with sbm, but the boast of election is not as you present it. 1 Corinthians 1:31 says, "so that, just as it is written, "Let Him Who Boasts, Boast In The Lord."" sbm is anything but your typical Calvinist. He is off in left field someplace. Please do not paint all of us with such a wide brush. All Christians are chosen by God as an act of his grace and mercy and none of us deserve it.
What God created is very good...what creation has become is far from very good. God does not necessarily hate creation. Romans 9:11-13 shows the disparity between God's general love for all his creation and God's special love for his elect.
The purpose of election is to give God glory for the grace given to those He has chosen. Like Reformed said by quoting 1 Cor. 1:31...boasting is in the Lord and about what he has done....which is his election.
savedbymercy
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People always say that they are not boasting when they say that their freewill accepting is what makes the difference between saved and lost, but it is boasting by default, whether they confess it or not ! The denial of it is false humility !
To extend your metaphor of the brush, if I may, let me explain my objection to the thesis of the OP. As we mature in the Christian faith many of us define and refine our understanding what the Bible says. Points of doctrine are accepted and rejected through Bible study, the influence of others and -prayerfully- the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The broad brush, as it were, becomes refined to the point where it becomes a pin striping brush. These fine brushes make a clear line as thin as a thread as need be, never once deviating from the intended course.
The OP gave us two choices. Actually it gave us one: believe in the "Gospel Truth of Election" or you are a boastful, arrogant and possibly unsaved lout. What if the OP had started with, "I am a Knight Sword No. 2 Pin Striping Brush. How dare the rest of you call yourselves brushes at all? If you are not as I am you are no more than the horse's tail from whence you came." Wouldn't you conclude that you were hearing from a proud, boastful, arrogant little pin striping brush? Enough about brushes.
Unfortunately, the merit of Election can never be discussed when the thesis is flawed. This is the passage that first came to mind:
Luke 18:11-12 NAS77
11 "The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, 'God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer.
12 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
12 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
SBM, I am not calling you a Pharisee. I am highlighting the attitude of this man who boasted of how humble he was. Later you said, "People always say that they are not boasting when they say that their freewill accepting is what makes the difference between saved and lost, but it is boasting by default, whether they confess it or not ! The denial of it is false humility !"
Nobody has said here that their free will saved anything. Did you read my testimony (post # 11 I believe)? Did you read the quote I posted from the prince of Arminians John Wesley? It is obvious that you don't understand what Free Will means only that someone told you it was bad and therefore you must rail against it.
Probably one of the more sophomoric things said on this board.
savedbymercy
New Member
That's my point, no one says it, but it's true none the same, it is True by default !
savedbymercy
New Member
No such thing as God's General Love, God has One Love, and it's that which is found in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39 ! In the original it's "the love of God " with the definite article ! God has no Love outside of Christ Jesus, and that Love is Redemptive !
savedbymercy
New Member
That's right and to say otherwise is calling God's word a LIE ! If God Elected based upon something He foresaw man would do, then He did indeed consider them having been already born, for who can do something for Him to foresee before they are born ?
savedbymercy
New Member
That's what people think who want to evade and excuse the consequences of their freewill thinking which results in boasting ! It's no way around it, either Christ Crucified for one makes the difference in being saved or lost, or something else besides that, whatever that something else may be, that is their boast and savior !
steaver;
I believe this is a more sincere question and it will get a more sincere answer, lets look; your original question was this
1]
Scripture gives the timeline. Calvin did not write it, the Apostle by the Spirit writes it.
2]neither having done any good or evil,
both Jacob and Esau and all men will be born and commit their own personal sin, and do some good works. The text is saying before they did anything, or any good work.....God saw them , or considered them as dead in Adam...
rom3:23,5:12...do not disappear because we are in chapters 8/9...
they were guilty and in Adam at conception.....
so what that means is when you and others say did God love/ or hate before birth is assuming they are neutral and they are not...they are considered as fallen.
Most errors occur when failing to grasp the horrible reality of Romans 5, not romans 9
3]that the purpose of God according to election might stand,
God has a Divine ,Holy ,and perfectly wise plan in all He does. I believe that and trust that God does all His good pleasure. I never doubt or question what He declares.
I understand it as best I can until I get additional light from scripture by prayerful study, sermons, teaching of trained Godly men.
None of these means avails anything unless the Spirit of God allows a person to welcome the word, to receive it meekly.
4]not of works,
obviously we are passive in this election, that is why he stresses not having DONE ANY GOOD OR EVIL....it does not influence God's Holy wise Choice.
5]but of him that calleth
It is the work of God....that is why we are 'called" out, called to be saints.
the others are left in their condition . Both groups are responsible.
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
God considered mankind as fallen, yet in mercy saves a multitude in His Son.
The world of the ungodly destroyed by the flood did not surprise God.
To preserve the Godly line they were cut off.....men women and children.
It was Holy and just for God to do so:thumbs:
The scripture no where teaches that God does anything for"no reason whatsoever"
sorry but I must point out the objection that Paul raises as I see you and others offering that same objection;
These questions make no sense if the Cal teaching is not accurate.
Everytime you or DHk, or Van offer this kind of objection , it strengthens our belief as it is just as Paul said.
Sure it does...that was before sin and death entered in real-time:thumbs:
yes..he leaves them as they are;
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice. ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto. ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )
I believe this is a more sincere question and it will get a more sincere answer, lets look; your original question was this
My answer directed you to romans 9 because it uses the exact language you are asking about.
1]
This directly answers your question as it speaks before the twins were born.
Scripture gives the timeline. Calvin did not write it, the Apostle by the Spirit writes it.
2]neither having done any good or evil,
both Jacob and Esau and all men will be born and commit their own personal sin, and do some good works. The text is saying before they did anything, or any good work.....God saw them , or considered them as dead in Adam...
rom3:23,5:12...do not disappear because we are in chapters 8/9...
they were guilty and in Adam at conception.....
so what that means is when you and others say did God love/ or hate before birth is assuming they are neutral and they are not...they are considered as fallen.
Most errors occur when failing to grasp the horrible reality of Romans 5, not romans 9
3]that the purpose of God according to election might stand,
God has a Divine ,Holy ,and perfectly wise plan in all He does. I believe that and trust that God does all His good pleasure. I never doubt or question what He declares.
I understand it as best I can until I get additional light from scripture by prayerful study, sermons, teaching of trained Godly men.
None of these means avails anything unless the Spirit of God allows a person to welcome the word, to receive it meekly.
4]not of works,
obviously we are passive in this election, that is why he stresses not having DONE ANY GOOD OR EVIL....it does not influence God's Holy wise Choice.
5]but of him that calleth
It is the work of God....that is why we are 'called" out, called to be saints.
the others are left in their condition . Both groups are responsible.
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
God considered mankind as fallen, yet in mercy saves a multitude in His Son.
The world of the ungodly destroyed by the flood did not surprise God.
To preserve the Godly line they were cut off.....men women and children.
It was Holy and just for God to do so:thumbs:
The scripture no where teaches that God does anything for"no reason whatsoever"
sorry but I must point out the objection that Paul raises as I see you and others offering that same objection;
These questions make no sense if the Cal teaching is not accurate.
Everytime you or DHk, or Van offer this kind of objection , it strengthens our belief as it is just as Paul said.
Sure it does...that was before sin and death entered in real-time:thumbs:
yes..he leaves them as they are;
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice. ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4. These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto. ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )
How many times have we seen this fallacy presented? 10, 100, 1000?
1) People make decisions based on what they think is best. If a person was raised in a Christian home, so they learned of the love and kindness of God, and the snares of the devil, they are more likely to choose to love Jesus with all their heart. Thus, as ambassadors, we are not only to plant, but also to cultivate, to water, and to walk the talk so we lead others to Christ as best we can.
2) Note the repeat of the claim non-Cal's do not believe in Election. Utter nonsense, we do not believe in Unconditional Election. Calvinists just repeat their mantra.
3) Who makes the difference in being saved or lost? Do non-Cal's say we saved ourselves? Yes some do, but others do not. I believe God, when He accepts our worthless filthy rag faith, and credits it as righteousness or not, makes the actual difference in being saved or not. Anyone can believe till the cows come home, if God does not credit it as righteousness, no salvation occurs. Thus we boast in the Lord and not in ourselves.
savedbymercy
New Member
And that is "your boast".
savedbymercy
New Member
While it is good we can agree on some verses, unless you study and repent of these false ideas I think we are NOT on the same page..
it was you who posted these falsehoods that need to be repented of as they are not believing thought as posted;
These evil misguided posts are found in this thread. Unless they have been repented of I can not agree with you on anything os substance as these as written are blasphemous.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=97225
savedbymercy
New Member
Lol, I can care less if you agree with me !
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