Why man hates the Gospel Truth of Election !

[DHK]

I posted this earlier...

A person is saved through the preaching of the Word.
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

When the gospel is understood, and then received (not all men receive it), the person admitting that he is a sinner (not all are humble enough to admit this) then, the Holy Spirit is able to work through the Word to bring him to salvation. It is still a work of the Spirit.

There is a hundred different reasons why a group of 75 would refuse the gospel. Ask them. However, it is up to them to receive or reject it. There are some that will sit under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and resist with tears. It is an act of sheer rebellion. Why did Adam rebel against God. You give me the answer why?

 

[DHK]

I don't spiritualize the whole word. But metaphors, allegories, types display Spiritual truths..

But sometimes we try and squeeze out truths where there aren't any.
The truth to look at in the raising of Lazarus is not the new birth, but the obvious resurrection of Christ.

 

[thatbrian]

Jesus was a very great communicator. That is why he didn't need Calvin to come 1500 years later and tell people how to interpret that which was so obvious to everyone before his time.
Jesus carefully explained everything to Nicodemus without allegorizing any of it.
The he applied an OT illustration--the serpent in the wilderness.
If they wanted to be healed they had to look in faith to that serpent.
In application to himself Nicodemus was to look to Christ. Christ was to be the object of his faith.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
--The meaning is clear and need not to be looked at through Calvinism's eyes.

You've skirted the issue.

 

[DHK]

You've skirted the issue.

You said:

You don't come to salvation. Salvation comes to you.

The gospel comes to you (the way of salvation).
It is up to you to receive it.

We are not as those eastern religions are:
Sitting in meditation awaiting like a clueless zombie who having never heard the gospel, not knowing anything about the gospel, suddenly has a mysterious, metaphysical experience, some inner change that cannot be described--very mystical takes place from within.
That is the new version of new birth.

 

[thatbrian]

You said:

The gospel comes to you (the way of salvation).
It is up to you to receive it.

We are not as those eastern religions are:
Sitting in meditation awaiting like a clueless zombie who having never heard the gospel, not knowing anything about the gospel, suddenly has a mysterious, metaphysical experience, some inner change that cannot be described--very mystical takes place from within.
That is the new version of new birth.

Still avoiding Jesus words and my explanation of them.

Also, this is not a game. Rolling eyes is for 12 year old girls, so if you want me to treat you like a man, start acting like one.

 

[Iconoclast]

Still avoiding Jesus words, and my explanation of them.

Also, this is not a game. Rolling eyes is for 12 year old girls, so if you want me to treat you like a man, start acting like one.

He isavoiding the issue because he has not much to say on it

:thumbs::applause::thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

A person is saved through the preaching of the Word.
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

No disagreement here.

When the gospel is understood, and then received (not all men receive it), the person admitting that he is a sinner (not all are humble enough to admit this) then, the Holy Spirit is able to work through the Word to bring him to salvation. It is still a work of the Spirit.

They receive not the word because...1) it has no place in them(John 8:37), 2) they are not His sheep. Jesus said He lost none, save the son of perdition, so if others die lost, how did He not lose them?

There is a hundred different reasons why a group of 75 would refuse the gospel. Ask them. However, it is up to them to receive or reject it. There are some that will sit under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and resist with tears. It is an act of sheer rebellion. Why did Adam rebel against God. You give me the answer why?

It all stems from deafened ears, hardened hearts, blinded eyes, and a spiritually dead soul. Unless God overcomes this for them, they will never truly hear the gospel. It's God's power to save people, not potentially save or save if they allow it to. The gospel saves lost peoples...

 

[convicted1]

But sometimes we try and squeeze out truths where there aren't any.
The truth to look at in the raising of Lazarus is not the new birth, but the obvious resurrection of Christ.

It is the perfect allegory of salvation...

Someone dead in sins and trespasses...no way of their own volition to come out. Jesus calling to them, then coming forth. Perfect picture, image of salvation. The truth...Christ is the Way, the Truth, the Life, and the Truth..Christ...sets people free...and if freed, they're free indeed...

 

[InTheLight]

It is the perfect allegory of salvation...

Someone dead in sins and trespasses...no way of their own volition to come out. Jesus calling to them, then coming forth. Perfect picture, image of salvation. The truth...Christ is the Way, the Truth, the Life, and the Truth..Christ...sets people free...and if freed, they're free indeed...

Allegory fails. Lazarus was sick, not dead. So he's not yet (metaphorically) dead in his sins, he's injured in his sins. His sisters send a message to God begging Him to heal Lazarus. Jesus deliberately waits 2 days so Lazarus will be dead--in your analogy, "become a sinner."

Jesus tells the disciples Lazarus is asleep and they think he means he's sleeping (even the disciples didn't see the dead in sins) analogy!

Jesus tells them that He let Lazarus die so that they would believe. Thomas, who apparently wants to believe also, says let's all die so we can believe. OK, believe what? Not believe that being dead is a metaphor for being a sinner, but that Jesus had literal power over death through resurrection.

The whole reason Jesus delayed going to Lazarus when he was yet living was so he could say "I am the resurrection and the life" and raise Lazarus from the dead.

In your metaphor what are the grave clothes that Jesus commands others take off our bodies when we are regenerated?

 

[convicted1]

Fair points...:thumbsup:

Allegory fails. Lazarus was sick, not dead. So he's not yet (metaphorically) dead in his sins, he's injured in his sins. His sisters send a message to God begging Him to heal Lazarus. Jesus deliberately waits 2 days so Lazarus will be dead--in your analogy, "become a sinner."

Jesus tells the disciples Lazarus is asleep and they think he means he's sleeping (even the disciples didn't see the dead in sins) analogy!

Jesus tells them that He let Lazarus die so that they would believe. Thomas, who apparently wants to believe also, says let's all die so we can believe. OK, believe what? Not believe that being dead is a metaphor for being a sinner, but that Jesus had literal power over death through resurrection.

The whole reason Jesus delayed going to Lazarus when he was yet living was so he could say "I am the resurrection and the life" and raise Lazarus from the dead.

In your metaphor what are the grave clothes that Jesus commands others take off our bodies when we are regenerated?

I was addressing the resurrection part. He was dead and had no way of coming out on his own. But you made some valid points. Kudos and touche'!! :thumbsup:


I will study this better and try to get back 2 u...

 

[robustheologian]

Just like we are saved by grace through the means of faith, that faith is by means of the Word. So we are saved by grace, through faith (Eph. 2:8-9) by hearing the word of God (Rom. 10:17).

BY grace THROUGH faith THROUGH the preaching and hearing of the word of God.

 

[DHK]

It is the perfect allegory of salvation...

Someone dead in sins and trespasses...no way of their own volition to come out. Jesus calling to them, then coming forth. Perfect picture, image of salvation. The truth...Christ is the Way, the Truth, the Life, and the Truth..Christ...sets people free...and if freed, they're free indeed...

The premises of Calvinism may fit your analogy, but that is also why they are false.
First, God doesn't command "all men everywhere" to do things that "Calvin" says they cannot do. If God commands men to repent then they have the innate ability to repent regardless of the false premises of Calvinism.
I believe in the depravity of man, but not the Total Inability of man, which is biblically erroneous. Unsaved man is separated from God by sin. That is what makes him dead. He is not dead as in a corpse like Lazarus. The comparison isn't there.
--The definition of death is wrong.
--The definition of depravity is wrong.
--And thus the analogy of the new birth is wrong.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
--At the conclusion of Paul's sermon to these Athenian idolaters, some believed and some didn't. It was the fruit of the preaching of the Word. God did not force anyone to be saved. It was their choice. There is no magic here.

Act 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
Act 17:33 So Paul departed from among them.
Act 17:34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed:
--Almost always in NT preaching it is the doctrine of the resurrection that divided and even angered people. (It either made you mad or glad).
They understood. Some in abject disgust rejected that message.
Others "clave to him," and believed. They "affectionately united with him." They were one with Christ. The gospel had changed them, as it had changed Paul. That is what the new birth is all about.

 

[robustheologian]

The premises of Calvinism may fit your analogy, but that is also why they are false.
First, God doesn't command "all men everywhere" to do things that "Calvin" says they cannot do. If God commands men to repent then they have the innate ability to repent regardless of the false premises of Calvinism.
I believe in the depravity of man, but not the Total Inability of man, which is biblically erroneous. Unsaved man is separated from God by sin. That is what makes him dead. He is not dead as in a corpse like Lazarus. The comparison isn't there.
--The definition of death is wrong.
--The definition of depravity is wrong.
--And thus the analogy of the new birth is wrong.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
--At the conclusion of Paul's sermon to these Athenian idolaters, some believed and some didn't. It was the fruit of the preaching of the Word. God did not force anyone to be saved. It was their choice. There is no magic here.

Act 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
Act 17:33 So Paul departed from among them.
Act 17:34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed:
--Almost always in NT preaching it is the doctrine of the resurrection that divided and even angered people. (It either made you mad or glad).
They understood. Some in abject disgust rejected that message.
Others "clave to him," and believed. They "affectionately united with him." They were one with Christ. The gospel had changed them, as it had changed Paul. That is what the new birth is all about.

While it is true that responsibility involves choices, it doesn't mean that fallen man is neutral when faced with that choice. God gives man His Law, and says, “I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live” (Deut. 30:19). Calvinists believe that fallen man is always prone to choose what leads to death and the curse since he is already spiritually dead. One's will always acts in accordance to his nature. Man is spiritually dead and therefore he always chooses the way of death.

 

[PreachTony]

While it is true that responsibility involves choices, it doesn't mean that fallen man is neutral when faced with that choice. God gives man His Law, and says, “I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live” (Deut. 30:19). Calvinists believe that fallen man is always prone to choose what leads to death and the curse since he is already spiritually dead. One's will always acts in accordance to his nature. Man is spiritually dead and therefore he always chooses the way of death.

If fallen man is so far gone that he cannot possibly choose God, then how did Job happen? We're told from the very beginning that

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

The Bible tells us nothing about God regenerating Job prior to this book. It is silent on the Holy Ghost moving in Job's life. And yet, here is Job, perfect and upright.

Or this...In 2 Samuel 22, David sings a song of praise for the Lord, and says:

22 For I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
23 For all his judgments were before me: and as for his statutes, I did not depart from them.
24 I was also upright before him, and have kept myself from mine iniquity.
25 Therefore the Lord hath recompensed me according to my righteousness; according to my cleanness in his eye sight.

If man can only choose ways that lead unto death, then how did David accomplish what he praises God for? How could someone who is supposedly a member of a fallen, wicked race, "not depart" from His commandments? How could he be "upright" before God? After all, the Bible does not state that David was regenerated her... Just curious.

 

[convicted1]

If fallen man is so far gone that he cannot possibly choose God, then how did Job happen? We're told from the very beginning that

The Bible tells us nothing about God regenerating Job prior to this book. It is silent on the Holy Ghost moving in Job's life. And yet, here is Job, perfect and upright.

And yet God avers unto Satan, "Hast thou set thy heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?'(vs 8)...and then we can find Job doing this..."Job doth send and sanctify them, and hath risen early in the morning, and caused to ascend burnt-offerings -- the number of them all -- for Job said, `Perhaps my sons have sinned, yet blessed God in their heart.' Thus doth Job all the days.(vs 3)

God called Job 'My servant' and Job acted in the seat of the High Priest. Oh yes, Job was regenerated and converted.

Or this...In 2 Samuel 22, David sings a song of praise for the Lord, and says:
If man can only choose ways that lead unto death, then how did David accomplish what he praises God for? How could someone who is supposedly a member of a fallen, wicked race, "not depart" from His commandments? How could he be "upright" before God? After all, the Bible does not state that David was regenerated her... Just curious.

David did many ungodly things, yet it's evident he was one of God's elect. In 2 Samuel 12, Nathan tells him that God took that sin of adultery w/Bathsheba away from him...(Romans 4:8 & 2 Samuel 12:13)...

 

[steaver]

If fallen man is so far gone that he cannot possibly choose God, then how did Job happen? We're told from the very beginning that

The Bible tells us nothing about God regenerating Job prior to this book. It is silent on the Holy Ghost moving in Job's life. And yet, here is Job, perfect and upright.

Or this...In 2 Samuel 22, David sings a song of praise for the Lord, and says:
If man can only choose ways that lead unto death, then how did David accomplish what he praises God for? How could someone who is supposedly a member of a fallen, wicked race, "not depart" from His commandments? How could he be "upright" before God? After all, the Bible does not state that David was regenerated her... Just curious.

The Spirit is working in you brother! :thumbsup: Regeneration is a NT implementation only. There was no "new creation" until after the death, burial and glorification of Jesus Christ.

John 7 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

David cried out in the Pslam for this new heart that was to come....

Psalm 51:10 - "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me."

Nicodemus was scolded for being a teacher of the Law and not knowing these things were coming....

John 3 - Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things

Hebrews 10 is an excellent portion of scripture explaining the new birth that has arrived in Christ...

Hebrews 10:16 - This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.

Calvinism needs there to be an OT regeneration in place so it can sustain it's claim that no one can believe God unless God first regenerates them. You won't find any expression of regeneration happening in the OT or even the NT until after Jesus Christ is glorified, even the disciples had to wait to be converted and we see Jesus breathing on them, saying receive ye the Holy Spirit.

The argument you will get from the Cals to point towards someone in the OT having the Spirit living within is those who "spake" by the Holy Ghost. This does not connote having a rebirth, if it would, then the dumb ass speaking to Balaam was a born-again ass. :laugh:

The new birth message explodes with Jesus Christ coming in the flesh, for it is near and about to happen.

Mark1:14-15 - Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

What of all those who died believing before regeneration? How were they able to enter into heaven in the presence of God? They had to wait in Paradise until Jesus was glorified, at which time he went to them and led them out. They would have been regenerated at that time.

 

[convicted1]

The Spirit is working in you brother! :thumbsup: Regeneration is a NT implementation only. There was no "new creation" until after the death, burial and glorification of Jesus Christ.



David cried out in the Pslam for this new heart that was to come....



Nicodemus was scolded for being a teacher of the Law and not knowing these things were coming....



Hebrews 10 is an excellent portion of scripture explaining the new birth that has arrived in Christ...



Calvinism needs there to be an OT regeneration in place so it can sustain it's claim that no one can believe God unless God first regenerates them. You won't find any expression of regeneration happening in the OT or even the NT until after Jesus Christ is glorified, even the disciples had to wait to be converted and we see Jesus breathing on them, saying receive ye the Holy Spirit.

The argument you will get from the Cals to point towards someone in the OT having the Spirit living within is those who "spake" by the Holy Ghost. This does not connote having a rebirth, if it would, then the dumb ass speaking to Balaam was a born-again ass. :laugh:

The new birth message explodes with Jesus Christ coming in the flesh, for it is near and about to happen.



What of all those who died believing before regeneration? How were they able to enter into heaven in the presence of God? They had to wait in Paradise until Jesus was glorified, at which time he went to them and led them out. They would have been regenerated at that time.

Job wasn't regenerated and yet God called him "My servant"??

 

[steaver]

Job wasn't regenerated and yet God called him "My servant"??

Why does he have to be regenerated to be God's servant? God spoke to these men, worked with them to cooperate with Him, even when many of them didn't want to do what God was telling them to do. God had to deal with them, convince them. Also remember, God knows all. God knew Moses would eventually submit, even though he argued and did not want to be God's servant, and God also knew Judas would turn on Him, even though He chose Judas to experience miracles, even gave Judas power to cast out devils, but knew Judas would ultimately reject Him.

 

[convicted1]

Why does he have to be regenerated to be God's servant? God spoke to these men, worked with them to cooperate with Him, even when many of them didn't want to do what God was telling them to do. God had to deal with them, convince them. Also remember, God knows all. God knew Moses would eventually submit, even though he argued and did not want to be God's servant, and God also knew Judas would turn on Him, even though He chose Judas to experience miracles, even gave Judas power to cast out devils, but knew Judas would ultimately reject Him.

These men were regenerated. Why kick against the goads? All who are saved are saved by faith through grace. It has never changed. They had the Spirit within them, see Daniel 6 for starters..."Then this Daniel hath been overseer over the presidents and satraps, because that an excellent spirit [is] in him, and the king hath thought to establish him over the whole kingdom."(vs 3)

 

[steaver]

These men were regenerated. Why kick against the goads? All who are saved are saved by faith through grace. It has never changed. They had the Spirit within them, see Daniel 6 for starters..."Then this Daniel hath been overseer over the presidents and satraps, because that an excellent spirit [is] in him, and the king hath thought to establish him over the whole kingdom."(vs 3)

Well if you interpret this as regeneration, then you have a lot of scripture conflicting against itself. Scripture makes it pretty clear God said He was going to do a "New Thing". You believe it is the same old thing??