Why man hates the Gospel Truth of Election !

[robustheologian]

Just like we are saved by grace through the means of faith, that faith is by means of the Word. So we are saved by grace, through faith (Eph. 2:8-9) by hearing the word of God (Rom. 10:17).

 

[The Archangel]

1Pe 1:23

(ESV) since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

"Born Again" in this passage is a passive participle. Passive, again, means that the subject is not acting and cannot be acting upon himself. The action discussed is done to the subject.

There is, in fact, the discussion of the "Divine Passive" where God is doing the action because the subject is acted upon from the outside.

So, you can't argue for what you're arguing for using this verse. The Greek simply doesn't allow for your conclusion.

The Archangel

 

[convicted1]

DHK,

being begotten again, not out of seed corruptible, but incorruptible, through a word of God -- living and remaining -- to the age;(1 Peter 1:23 YLT)

Say you preach the most Christ-exhalting you've ever been blessed to preach in front of 75 lost people. Three come forth proclaiming that Christ saved them. What caused them to be born again via you message? Was it:

--They weren't as bad a sinner as the others?
--Their hearts weren't as hard as the others?
--Were they smarter and understood the message better?
--The others were deaf and no translator was there?

Bump...so it doesn't get overlooked...

 

[convicted1]

You had zero to do with your natural birth...

You had zero to do with your Spiritual birth...

Bumping...

 

[robustheologian]

You had zero to do with your natural birth...

You had zero to do with your Spiritual birth...

Also, 'born again' is 'born from above'. Ye must be born from above is the better translation. None can be 'born from above' by their own doing...

This is great!! :applause:

 

[PreachTony]

You had zero to do with your natural birth...

You had zero to do with your Spiritual birth...

And yet, in the scriptures we are told:

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

All of these seem to indicate some action taken by man, which is why I'm not like some of these intense literalists who believe even believing is a work of man. It, to my understanding, cannot be held as a work because we are told also

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

To say calling on God is a work (as detailed in Romans 10:13) makes the scripture in Ephesians either outright wrong or contradictory.

 

[convicted1]

Brother Tony,


Those verses have to do with man after being given life...the ability to respond..

Could Lazarus have come forth prior to hearing Jesus' voice calling him out of the tomb?

We were dead, in a spiritual tomb, with no ability to seek, knock, believe or ask. God calling us and us responding shows God already at work...

--for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.(Phpps. 2:13 YLT)

 

[convicted1]

This is great!! :applause:

At first you called me 'sir' and then edited it. LOL J/K :laugh:

 

[Van]

1) False assertion - man hates election. Truth, non-Cals love conditional election.
2) False assertion - being saved by grace through faith means saved by grace and then given faith. Truth, if God alone credits our worthless filthy rag faith as righteousness, He alone saves us by setting us apart spiritually in Christ.

 

[PreachTony]

Those verses have to do with man after being given life...the ability to respond..

Could Lazarus have come forth prior to hearing Jesus' voice calling him out of the tomb?

We were dead, in a spiritual tomb, with no ability to seek, knock, believe or ask. God calling us and us responding shows God already at work...

--for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.(Phpps. 2:13 YLT)

Question, then, and please consider my point of view as a non-Cal who does not hold to the Calvinist 5-point definition of Irresistible Grace:

If God gives a member of the Elect the "gift of repentance" and they do NOT repent, they do not confess the Lord with their mouth, are they still Elect?

I only ask because it seems like, in the effort to proclaim that God does everything for man in salvation (which is not something I disagree with, only with the process surrounding it) some of us seem willing to overlook scriptural evidence in order to maintain the dictates of a man who lived 1500 years after the Resurrection.

 

[robustheologian]

Question, then, and please consider my point of view as a non-Cal who does not hold to the Calvinist 5-point definition of Irresistible Grace:

If God gives a member of the Elect the "gift of repentance" and they do NOT repent, they do not confess the Lord with their mouth, are they still Elect?

I only ask because it seems like, in the effort to proclaim that God does everything for man in salvation (which is not something I disagree with, only with the process surrounding it) some of us seem willing to overlook scriptural evidence in order to maintain the dictates of a man who lived 1500 years after the Resurrection.

Well Scripture says salvation is with confession of the mouth. No one who has been given the gift of repentance will not repent. It is irresistible.

 

[convicted1]

Question, then, and please consider my point of view as a non-Cal who does not hold to the Calvinist 5-point definition of Irresistible Grace:

If God gives a member of the Elect the "gift of repentance" and they do NOT repent, they do not confess the Lord with their mouth, are they still Elect?

I only ask because it seems like, in the effort to proclaim that God does everything for man in salvation (which is not something I disagree with, only with the process surrounding it) some of us seem willing to overlook scriptural evidence in order to maintain the dictates of a man who lived 1500 years after the Resurrection.

If God grants repentance, they will repent...

If God grants faith, they will exercise it and believe...

If God gives life, they live...

God moves upon sinners and they move. His gifts and callings are w/o repentance...

Again, when Jesus called to Lazarus, could he have refused to come out of the tomb?

 

[robustheologian]

If God grants repentance, they will repent...

If God grants faith, they will exercise it and believe...

If God gives life, they live...

God moves upon sinners and they move. His gifts and callings are w/o repentance...

Again, when Jesus called to Lazarus, could he have refused to come out of the tomb?

:applause:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

The new birth takes place by the Word of God. That is what it says.
The Word comes first. The reception and understanding of the Word must come second. Then the new birth can take place. It must be in that order.

You get it wrong over and over. You are exposed over and over. Do you take the help offered you, NO you refuse it.

Exhibit one;

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK View Post
You misunderstand what Jesus was talking about and are stretching the analogy too far. Jesus said to Nidocemus (and he said three times). You must be born again. As in, Nicodemus this is something you must do.

This is absolutely wrong. In the Greek, "born again" is not an imperative. In fact, the verb is passive, which--by definition--means the subject is not and cannot be acting upon himself. By definition the passive verb is something done to you, not by you.

This is clear as a bell. Do you thank AA for correcting your error.....no

you respond here;

Yes. God changes me WHEN I believe on HimYou cannot chuck 1Pet.1:23 out of your Bible.

AA catches you.... and responds-

...he said to avoid his own error which was pointed out to him......

The Archangel

and again;
And... what exactly do you mean by this, other than an attempt to obfuscate.

Where does 1 Peter 1:23 say anything about "God changes me when I believe on him?" Do you not know, have you not heard that "born again" in 1 Peter 1:23 is also passive, meaning that something had been done to Peter's recipients, not done by them?
The Archangel


Someone have mercy and throw in the towel for DHK:laugh:

Your man centered error shows once again.
exhibit 2;

Con 1 offers this;
Also, 'born again' is 'born from above'. Ye must be born from above is the better translation. None can be 'born from above' by their own doing

Do you thank Con 1......no..here is your response to correct teaching;

And so?????
__________________
DHK

SO??? you should repent and thank these men saying...I see my error and will take steps to correct what I have taught in error to those who sit under my teaching as it is wrong...I see that now!

No, you persist in your error as usual:laugh: Oh the humanity:laugh:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK View Post

1Pe 1:23

(ESV) since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

"Born Again" in this passage is a passive participle. Passive, again, means that the subject is not acting and cannot be acting upon himself. The action discussed is done to the subject.

There is, in fact, the discussion of the "Divine Passive" where God is doing the action because the subject is acted upon from the outside.

So, you can't argue for what you're arguing for using this verse. The Greek simply doesn't allow for your conclusion.

The Archangel

 

[thatbrian]

You misunderstand what Jesus was talking about and are stretching the analogy too far. Jesus said to Nidocemus (and he said three times). You must be born again. As in, Nicodemus this is something you must do.

You are adding a, "do" where there is no do. . .but, so did Nicodemus.

I think that we would all agree that Jesus was a great communicator. He crafted his words to each situation and person perfectly. He very carefully and skillfully used this analogy for the VERY reason we are having this debate. He told Nicodemus something that he couldn't DO. Nicodemus was certain that he could DO. Jesus, through this amnalogy shattered his worldview. Jesus knew exactly what he was doing when he chose his words.

You don't come to salvation. Salvation comes to you.

 

[savedbymercy]

I think we all agree that salvation is all of God. Who said anything about "your own doing." That is simple ignorance of salvation.
It is a misunderstanding of "faith." Romans 4:1-5 teaches that faith is not a work. So does Eph.2:8,9 as well as many other passages. Salvation is to be received as a gift. It is not to be worked for. Why are these concepts so difficult to grasp.
Since when did "Refomers," so-called, stop believing in sola fide?

There is no scripture that says that Faith is not a work, not one ! Eph 2:8,9 doesnt say Faith is not a work, neither is that phrase found in Rom 4:1-5 !

You are falsifying scripture.

To top that off, you are being contrary to scripture, For Jesus says that Faith is a work of the Law that ought to be done Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Also the very definition of a work demands that believing is a work, an act done , accomplished with the mind/heart. The word work is ergon and means:


I.business, employment, that which any one is occupied

A.that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking



II.any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind


III.an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So you are making a false statement and invalid, without a shred of scripture to back you up !

 

[savedbymercy]

The new birth takes place by the Word of God. That is what it says.
The Word comes first. The reception and understanding of the Word must come second. Then the new birth can take place. It must be in that order.

A person who has not been born anew of God, is in the flesh, and unfortunately, those who are in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 which Faith/believing does please God Heb 11:6.

So there is no spiritual hearing, reception, understanding, and believing before New Birth !

We must be OF GOD to Hear God's Words Jn 8:47 ! Your beliefs are unbiblical and totally of the flesh and pride of man !

 

[DHK]

You are adding a, "do" where there is no do. . .but, so did Nicodemus.

I think that we would all agree that Jesus was a great communicator. He crafted his words to each situation and person perfectly. He very carefully and skillfully used this analogy for the VERY reason we are having this debate. He told Nicodemus something that he couldn't DO. Nicodemus was certain that he could DO. Jesus, through this amnalogy shattered his worldview. Jesus knew exactly what he was doing when he chose his words.

You don't come to salvation. Salvation comes to you.

Jesus was a very great communicator. That is why he didn't need Calvin to come 1500 years later and tell people how to interpret that which was so obvious to everyone before his time.
Jesus carefully explained everything to Nicodemus without allegorizing any of it.
The he applied an OT illustration--the serpent in the wilderness.
If they wanted to be healed they had to look in faith to that serpent.
In application to himself Nicodemus was to look to Christ. Christ was to be the object of his faith.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
--The meaning is clear and need not to be looked at through Calvinism's eyes.

 

[convicted1]

Jesus was a very great communicator. That is why he didn't need Calvin to come 1500 years later and tell people how to interpret that which was so obvious to everyone before his time.
Jesus carefully explained everything to Nicodemus without allegorizing any of it.
The he applied an OT illustration--the serpent in the wilderness.
If they wanted to be healed they had to look in faith to that serpent.
In application to himself Nicodemus was to look to Christ. Christ was to be the object of his faith.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
--The meaning is clear and need not to be looked at through Calvinism's eyes.

So Lazarus could come forth all by himself?

Jesus called out to him and he came out...

When God speaks, those He speak to, will respond.

 

[DHK]

A person who has not been born anew of God, is in the flesh, and unfortunately, those who are in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 which Faith/believing does please God Heb 11:6.

So there is no spiritual hearing, reception, understanding, and believing before New Birth !

We must be OF GOD to Hear God's Words Jn 8:47 ! Your beliefs are unbiblical and totally of the flesh and pride of man !

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.