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- Thread starter Rhetorician
- Start date
UZThD,
In #7 above could we say something about "regeneration" and that "faith and repentance" are both gifts given by a "Grace Gift" of God @ regeneration.
It seems to me to imply that faith actually attains the salvation. I don't want this to be too Calvinistic--BUT! If you read it you will see what I mean. Sometimes it is hard to critique our own work.
Thanks for the time and effort put in.
This is not a "hill I want to 'die for,'" but it might just be "my thang" and no one else's.
Whatdayathink?
Please advise by post, email, or PM.
sdg!
rd
UZThD,
I am satisfied with your refinements on #7.
PRINT IT!!!!!!!!!!
I would be interested to know who wanted the revisions on #1 & #9?
Let me know if I can help. There is always a problem with a SOF, it has to be broad in some areas and narrow in others. It is hard to please everyone. You have made a good and earnest try.
Keep up the good work.
sdg!
rd
I am satisfied with your refinements on #7.
PRINT IT!!!!!!!!!!
I would be interested to know who wanted the revisions on #1 & #9?
Let me know if I can help. There is always a problem with a SOF, it has to be broad in some areas and narrow in others. It is hard to please everyone. You have made a good and earnest try.
Keep up the good work.
sdg!
rd
Plain Old Bill
New Member
1 & 9, that would be me. By the way UZThd I think the redraw is excellant,there is nothing in the SOF that I am the least bit uncomfortable with.
My reasons for 1 & 9 are to keep To eliminate the question right off the bat in plain language about the KJVO policy. The second part or 9 is to verify that we do have standards, we know we are to live separated lives,but we are not to be modern day pharisees. I wanted that out front and public.We are to hate the sin and love the sinner.I also wanted to preclude comments and thoughts reflecting that we stand for nothing.In this manner we are up front from the beginning removing all doubt from the beginning.
My reasons for 1 & 9 are to keep To eliminate the question right off the bat in plain language about the KJVO policy. The second part or 9 is to verify that we do have standards, we know we are to live separated lives,but we are not to be modern day pharisees. I wanted that out front and public.We are to hate the sin and love the sinner.I also wanted to preclude comments and thoughts reflecting that we stand for nothing.In this manner we are up front from the beginning removing all doubt from the beginning.
Plain Old Bill
New Member
Sorry for the short note, I'm on my way to work see you all in about 10 hours.
UZThD,
You are the theologian and have the new "paperwork" to prove it. Let me offer one observation that has come up time and again in the SBC Conservative Resurgence.
The moderates have always accused us, the fundamentalists, for a lack of a better term for being creedalist.
We have maintained that there is a big difference between a "creed" and a "confession of faith."
A creed is something that one must believe in order to be a part of the particular group. It is exclusionary. Believe the jots and tittles the way we do or your not orthodox "like us."
A "confession" on the other hand (what we are doing) is not a one time, for all, believe it or get out type of thing. It is inclusionary. All who adhere to it are in good standing or stead. It is agreed upon at a particular time, place, by a certain group by the confessing groups mutual consent. This can be seen by the Second London Confession, The Philadelphia Confession, the New Hampshire Confession, and the SBC 1925 Faith and Message and the 1963. They were are parsed and rewritten when needed by the said groups.
Having said all of this, I would hesitate to call what we (you) have done a "creed." I creed would be something like Nicea. Something you have to believe/hold in order for a point of orthodoxy to be held.
This may be just the pet peave of one who has just come through the fray of a fight to regain their major denomination.
sdg!
FYI!
rd
You are the theologian and have the new "paperwork" to prove it. Let me offer one observation that has come up time and again in the SBC Conservative Resurgence.
The moderates have always accused us, the fundamentalists, for a lack of a better term for being creedalist.
We have maintained that there is a big difference between a "creed" and a "confession of faith."
A creed is something that one must believe in order to be a part of the particular group. It is exclusionary. Believe the jots and tittles the way we do or your not orthodox "like us."
A "confession" on the other hand (what we are doing) is not a one time, for all, believe it or get out type of thing. It is inclusionary. All who adhere to it are in good standing or stead. It is agreed upon at a particular time, place, by a certain group by the confessing groups mutual consent. This can be seen by the Second London Confession, The Philadelphia Confession, the New Hampshire Confession, and the SBC 1925 Faith and Message and the 1963. They were are parsed and rewritten when needed by the said groups.
Having said all of this, I would hesitate to call what we (you) have done a "creed." I creed would be something like Nicea. Something you have to believe/hold in order for a point of orthodoxy to be held.
This may be just the pet peave of one who has just come through the fray of a fight to regain their major denomination.
sdg!
FYI!
rd
===
If you and the others are agreeable, I think we should reflect on the statement of faith for a couple of days before declaring it official.
I understand it could be later modified even after we several affirmed it, but let's not trip over our own feet too early.
Possibly others will chime in with suggestions if we allow a couple of days for that to happen .
Here's an attempt to incorporate the suggestions by Rhet and POB. Wording is slightly different than previous.
We believe:
1. The 66 Books of the Bible in their wording in the originals are inspired and inerrant and are the final authority over belief and practice. While many versions or translations faithfully reproduce ,in the main, the ideas of the originals, and so are ample for the knowledge of salvation and Christian growth, only the autographa are inspired and inerrant. The final authority over belief and practice therefore is what is best evidenced to be the true text in the Biblical languages when correctly interpreted.
2. There is only one GOD, who eternally exists in three Persons , Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which Persons are perfectly equal in nature, attributes, power, and glory. God is creator of man and the universe.
3. Man is born a sinner, thus in need of salvation, because of the transgression of Adam, and consequently man is unable except by grace to choose and love God .
4. God the Father loves man so greatly that He gave His only Son to save man by the Son's vicarious death, and the salvific merits of this death are applied only to those who believe and accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
5. God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who , by His virginal conception, became true man remains ever also true God. Christ has both a complete human nature , though ever sinless, and a complete divine nature. He nevertheless exists as one Person with neither a diminuation of His deity or His humanity nor with a blending of these two natures or the attributes of each . Christ died a redeeming, substitutionary death for our sin , was bodily resurrected , ascended , now intercedes for us as our High Priest, and will personally and physically return to earth.
6. God the the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and applies to individuals, who only are saved by grace through faith, the salvation merited by the redeeming death of Jesus Christ. This salvation is made possible by the sacrificial, propitiatory death of Christ, and not by what we do!
7) Salvation is received through faith, not earned by works, by those subjects of God's grace-- which grace leads to repentance . This salvation, freely given in love by God , includes a new birth or a regeneration , a forgiveness of sins, a new nature and giftedness for service. These graces are accomplished by the Holy Spirit who indwells all Christians. By this newness of life, we are enabled to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Him and are to be progressively sanctified as we yield to Him. Salvation also includes , at physical death, being in a literal place eternally in the presence of God Himself instead of in a literal place of eternal punishment and separation from God which is reserved for the devil, his angels, and the lost. It also includes a resurrected and glorified body at the time of Christ's second coming .
8. The Church is the body of Christ and members of local churches should be baptised in water by immersion , not to save, but because this is commanded by Christ and exemplified by the apostolic churches. Christians also should regularly participate in the Lord's Supper as a memory of His death and next coming. The local church has offices as elders (pastors, bishops) and deacons. The church exists to worship God, edify the saints, and reach the lost.
9. Christians are to consistently grow in grace through prayer, worship, service, witnessing, learning, fellowship, and an increased surrender to God. We believe the Scriptures require a moral life of Christans. While we do not approve of the legalism of some, we do feel the need to condemn some practices in our society as abortion and marriage between those of the same gender.
10. We recognize that indivuals connected with our Academy may hold beliefs which are more comprehensive and more particularized than are these.
We believe:
1. The 66 Books of the Bible in their wording in the originals are inspired and inerrant and are the final authority over belief and practice. While many versions or translations faithfully reproduce ,in the main, the ideas of the originals, and so are ample for the knowledge of salvation and Christian growth, only the autographa are inspired and inerrant. The final authority over belief and practice therefore is what is best evidenced to be the true text in the Biblical languages when correctly interpreted.
2. There is only one GOD, who eternally exists in three Persons , Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which Persons are perfectly equal in nature, attributes, power, and glory. God is creator of man and the universe.
3. Man is born a sinner, thus in need of salvation, because of the transgression of Adam, and consequently man is unable except by grace to choose and love God .
4. God the Father loves man so greatly that He gave His only Son to save man by the Son's vicarious death, and the salvific merits of this death are applied only to those who believe and accept Christ as Lord and Savior.
5. God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who , by His virginal conception, became true man remains ever also true God. Christ has both a complete human nature , though ever sinless, and a complete divine nature. He nevertheless exists as one Person with neither a diminuation of His deity or His humanity nor with a blending of these two natures or the attributes of each . Christ died a redeeming, substitutionary death for our sin , was bodily resurrected , ascended , now intercedes for us as our High Priest, and will personally and physically return to earth.
6. God the the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and applies to individuals, who only are saved by grace through faith, the salvation merited by the redeeming death of Jesus Christ. This salvation is made possible by the sacrificial, propitiatory death of Christ, and not by what we do!
7) Salvation is received through faith, not earned by works, by those subjects of God's grace-- which grace leads to repentance . This salvation, freely given in love by God , includes a new birth or a regeneration , a forgiveness of sins, a new nature and giftedness for service. These graces are accomplished by the Holy Spirit who indwells all Christians. By this newness of life, we are enabled to grow in grace and in the knowledge of Him and are to be progressively sanctified as we yield to Him. Salvation also includes , at physical death, being in a literal place eternally in the presence of God Himself instead of in a literal place of eternal punishment and separation from God which is reserved for the devil, his angels, and the lost. It also includes a resurrected and glorified body at the time of Christ's second coming .
8. The Church is the body of Christ and members of local churches should be baptised in water by immersion , not to save, but because this is commanded by Christ and exemplified by the apostolic churches. Christians also should regularly participate in the Lord's Supper as a memory of His death and next coming. The local church has offices as elders (pastors, bishops) and deacons. The church exists to worship God, edify the saints, and reach the lost.
9. Christians are to consistently grow in grace through prayer, worship, service, witnessing, learning, fellowship, and an increased surrender to God. We believe the Scriptures require a moral life of Christans. While we do not approve of the legalism of some, we do feel the need to condemn some practices in our society as abortion and marriage between those of the same gender.
10. We recognize that indivuals connected with our Academy may hold beliefs which are more comprehensive and more particularized than are these.
HZThD,
Here is one of those "reflections."
In #3 above, do we need to say anything about "The Fall?"
Just an observation. I can live with it either way.
sdg!
rd
Here is one of those "reflections."
In #3 above, do we need to say anything about "The Fall?"
Just an observation. I can live with it either way.
sdg!
rd
To all who are interested in the BB Academy.
If there is any more "reflections" on the COF or SOF, please send them to one of us who are involved so we can keep the ball rolling.
sdg!
rd
If there is any more "reflections" on the COF or SOF, please send them to one of us who are involved so we can keep the ball rolling.
sdg!
rd
Some spelling and grammar fixed , some rewording, and added ideation. Let me know your thoughts:
We believe:
1. The 66 Books of the Bible in their wording in the originals only are inspired and infallible or inerrant. Yet many versions or translations are thought to faithfully reproduce ,in the main, the ideas of the originals. These are quite ample for the knowledge of salvation and for Christian growth. The final authority over belief and practice , however, is not a translation, but is what is best evidenced to be the true text in the Biblical languages when correctly interpreted by a grammatical-historical method.
2. There is only one GOD, who eternally exists in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These Persons are perfectly equal in nature, attributes, power, and glory. God is creator of man and the universe.
3. The first man, Adam, transgressed, and in Adam's fall all are made sinners. Thus every man and woman is born with a sinful nature and is unable without grace to choose God.
4. God the Father loves man so greatly that He gave His only Son to save man by the Son's vicarious, redeeming, and substitutionary death. The salvific merits of this death are applied to those who have reached an age of accountability when they believe and accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Those who die before reaching that age of accountability are thought to be among the saved.
5. God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who , by His virginal conception, became true man remains also true God. Christ has both a complete human nature which neither was affected by a sin nature nor committed an actual sin , and also has a complete divine nature which is equal to and one in essence with God the Father and the God Holy Spirit. Christ nevertheless exists as one Person without either a diminution of His deity or of His humanity. Nor is there a sharing or a blending of essence or powers or attributes between these two natures. Christ died a redeeming, substitutionary death for our sin , was bodily resurrected , ascended , now intercedes for us as our High Priest, and will personally and physically return to earth.
6. God the the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and applies to individuals the salvation merited by the redeeming, substitutionary death of Jesus Christ.
7) Salvation is received through faith, not earned by works, by those subjects of God's grace-- which grace leads to repentance . This salvation, freely given in love by God , includes a new birth or a regeneration , a forgiveness of sins, a new nature, and a giftedness for service. These graces are accomplished by the Holy Spirit who indwells all Christians. By these works of the Spirit we are enabled to grow in grace and in the knowledge of God , and we are to be progressively sanctified as we yield to Him. Salvation also includes , at physical death, being in a literal place eternally in the presence of God Himself instead of in a literal place of eternal punishment and separation from God. That place of eternal separation from God is reserved for the devil, his angels, and the lost. Salvation also includes a resurrected and glorified body at the time of Christ's second coming .
8. The Church is the body of Christ and members of local churches should be baptised in water by immersion , not to save, but because this is commanded by Christ and exemplified by the apostolic churches. Christians also should regularly participate in the Lord's Supper as a memory of His death and next coming. The local church has offices as elders (pastors, bishops) and deacons. The church exists to worship and glorify God, edify the saints, and reach the lost.
9. Christians are to consistently grow in grace through prayer, worship, service, witnessing, learning Scripture, fellowship, and an increased surrender to God. We believe the Scriptures require a moral life of Christans. While we do not approve of the legalism of some, we do feel the need to condemn some practices in our society as abortion and marriage between those of the same gender.
10. We recognize that indivuals connected with our Academy may hold beliefs which are more comprehensive and more particularized than are these.
[ July 30, 2005, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: UZThD ]
We believe:
1. The 66 Books of the Bible in their wording in the originals only are inspired and infallible or inerrant. Yet many versions or translations are thought to faithfully reproduce ,in the main, the ideas of the originals. These are quite ample for the knowledge of salvation and for Christian growth. The final authority over belief and practice , however, is not a translation, but is what is best evidenced to be the true text in the Biblical languages when correctly interpreted by a grammatical-historical method.
2. There is only one GOD, who eternally exists in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These Persons are perfectly equal in nature, attributes, power, and glory. God is creator of man and the universe.
3. The first man, Adam, transgressed, and in Adam's fall all are made sinners. Thus every man and woman is born with a sinful nature and is unable without grace to choose God.
4. God the Father loves man so greatly that He gave His only Son to save man by the Son's vicarious, redeeming, and substitutionary death. The salvific merits of this death are applied to those who have reached an age of accountability when they believe and accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Those who die before reaching that age of accountability are thought to be among the saved.
5. God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who , by His virginal conception, became true man remains also true God. Christ has both a complete human nature which neither was affected by a sin nature nor committed an actual sin , and also has a complete divine nature which is equal to and one in essence with God the Father and the God Holy Spirit. Christ nevertheless exists as one Person without either a diminution of His deity or of His humanity. Nor is there a sharing or a blending of essence or powers or attributes between these two natures. Christ died a redeeming, substitutionary death for our sin , was bodily resurrected , ascended , now intercedes for us as our High Priest, and will personally and physically return to earth.
6. God the the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and applies to individuals the salvation merited by the redeeming, substitutionary death of Jesus Christ.
7) Salvation is received through faith, not earned by works, by those subjects of God's grace-- which grace leads to repentance . This salvation, freely given in love by God , includes a new birth or a regeneration , a forgiveness of sins, a new nature, and a giftedness for service. These graces are accomplished by the Holy Spirit who indwells all Christians. By these works of the Spirit we are enabled to grow in grace and in the knowledge of God , and we are to be progressively sanctified as we yield to Him. Salvation also includes , at physical death, being in a literal place eternally in the presence of God Himself instead of in a literal place of eternal punishment and separation from God. That place of eternal separation from God is reserved for the devil, his angels, and the lost. Salvation also includes a resurrected and glorified body at the time of Christ's second coming .
8. The Church is the body of Christ and members of local churches should be baptised in water by immersion , not to save, but because this is commanded by Christ and exemplified by the apostolic churches. Christians also should regularly participate in the Lord's Supper as a memory of His death and next coming. The local church has offices as elders (pastors, bishops) and deacons. The church exists to worship and glorify God, edify the saints, and reach the lost.
9. Christians are to consistently grow in grace through prayer, worship, service, witnessing, learning Scripture, fellowship, and an increased surrender to God. We believe the Scriptures require a moral life of Christans. While we do not approve of the legalism of some, we do feel the need to condemn some practices in our society as abortion and marriage between those of the same gender.
10. We recognize that indivuals connected with our Academy may hold beliefs which are more comprehensive and more particularized than are these.
[ July 30, 2005, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: UZThD ]
Just my impressions.
Realizing I am not part of this yet, and that I am not aquainted with Southern Baptist statements, it seems generic and possibly laced with unnecessary detail while leaving out other needed detail.
I can see an arminian, a calvinist, a dispy and a covey, as well as amill, pretrib and all between feeling warm and fuzzy under this umbrella. If the faculty is that varied how will the new student sort through all the varied positions, thoughts and doctrines they are going to be subjected to? Confusion seems to be the likely outcome. For the trained student the mental gymnastics might be an advantage.
If a wide and varied faculty is desired then it is probably about what you want.
Point one seems to overdo on the originals and almost detracts from what we do have in the Word today - the protected Word of God.
Realizing I am not part of this yet, and that I am not aquainted with Southern Baptist statements, it seems generic and possibly laced with unnecessary detail while leaving out other needed detail.
I can see an arminian, a calvinist, a dispy and a covey, as well as amill, pretrib and all between feeling warm and fuzzy under this umbrella. If the faculty is that varied how will the new student sort through all the varied positions, thoughts and doctrines they are going to be subjected to? Confusion seems to be the likely outcome.
For the trained student the mental gymnastics might be an advantage.
If a wide and varied faculty is desired then it is probably about what you want.
Point one seems to overdo on the originals and almost detracts from what we do have in the Word today - the protected Word of God.
HZThD & Exs.,
I would personally prefer to opt for the Calvinistic side; BUT not all are Calvinists. We may loose some very good students and faculty as well if we lean too far in that direction. I can work well with an Arminian who "believes all are saved by grace!"
We may have some "loud discussions" off line about what "real grace" is and means. But, that is to be handled when and if it comes up.
I would vote for "inclusionary" rather than "exclusionary" especially for the project at hand.
I use to be a "High Calvinist" and was hard. I wanted to make "Calvinist disciples" rather than "Christ's Disciples." I believe like I always have believed--I am just not "mad about it" any longer.
I would rather have a "generic SOF" for which Exs argues and have a "big tent" in order to draw students and have a greater ministry focus.
Many (I suppose) will be coming to the programs with little or no theology; the very SOF could be a "teaching tool."
HZThD,
I would go for the modified Calvinistic stance--one that would not be offensive to the "thinking Arminian."
Whatdayathink?
sdg!
rd
I would personally prefer to opt for the Calvinistic side; BUT not all are Calvinists. We may loose some very good students and faculty as well if we lean too far in that direction. I can work well with an Arminian who "believes all are saved by grace!"
We may have some "loud discussions" off line about what "real grace" is and means. But, that is to be handled when and if it comes up.
I would vote for "inclusionary" rather than "exclusionary" especially for the project at hand.
I use to be a "High Calvinist" and was hard. I wanted to make "Calvinist disciples" rather than "Christ's Disciples." I believe like I always have believed--I am just not "mad about it" any longer.
I would rather have a "generic SOF" for which Exs argues and have a "big tent" in order to draw students and have a greater ministry focus.
Many (I suppose) will be coming to the programs with little or no theology; the very SOF could be a "teaching tool."
HZThD,
I would go for the modified Calvinistic stance--one that would not be offensive to the "thinking Arminian."
Whatdayathink?
sdg!
rd