Why Sunday can NOT be the Lord's Day

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Gerhard,

Maybe this will help:

go here: http://www.present-truth.org/br/brcontents.htm

scroll down to:

Section 8 - THE LAW OF GOD

Claudia,
The SDA's are ever prepared to "help", but never to be helped. They claim themselves to be the Church of the 7th Letter which John wrote to the Laodeceans, but refuses to admit they are poor in spiritual / biblical knowledge and understanding. I know every bit of the doctrines promoted through the website you referred to, and assure you there's about nothing in it of 'substance' for the seeker after Gospel Truth. The Sabbath-doctrine is most disappointing. Again the SDA's and their prophetess promised great improvements and "more light" on the subject of the Sabbath-truth, yet consistently and the later the more vehemently resist to development or improvement on it. They have been presented with one specific adjustment on the Sabbath-doctrine now for about twenty years, but it has so succesful been hushed that scarsely any ordinary memeber would be able to obtain information about it. Then the mainstream folk are also so indoctrinated they point blank refuse to hear - even though for just a minute. And that 'adjustment' is the basic truth of the Gospel that lends all worth to the Sabbath and to Sabbath-doctrine, namely, the Divine fact of Jesus' resurrection "ON the Sabbath" (and NOT, "ON the First Day of the week".
It was upon this principle truth that Paul based his entire argumentation in Colossians 2:16-17 in favour of the Church and against its attacker the 'world'. Which says that Paul speaks of Sabbath here, being observed by the Church and condemned by the 'world'. What a 'pro' for the Sabbath! But the SDA's? They are first and foremost to reject and then to deny it!

73. The Two Laws
74. The End of the Law

 

[wopik]

FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY:
A HISTORICAL INVESTIGATION OF THE RISE OF SUNDAY OBSERVANCE IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY

http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/sabbath_to_sunday/3.html

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Seth3:
Bob says,

But HIS sovereign appointment of His Seventh day Sabbath "remains".

Seth3 replies

Yes Bob in relation to this day there REMAINS a SABBATH REST (A DAY SEEN AS THE SEVENTH) which some have NOT ENTERED=REST and have not Ceased from their Labor "under the Law" into the Faith of Christ and His finished work.

I see it literally spiritual you see it literally natural. We are free to see it differently and we must each give an account to the Lord who judges us.

God Bless

Seth3

Dear Seth3,
Are we 'free' to see it any which way we like? I think we are free to see it Scripturally. One thing is Scripturally sure, that the Bible itself, knows NO "literally spiritual" 'Sabbath'; the Bible doesn't know the concept of 'the eighth day', and it doesn't know the whim of a 'seventh period' or anything of the kind. The Bible has "literally natural" Sabbath - 'ceremonial' or the 'creation'- Sabbath. And they ALL, in Christ and through Christ, came be fulfilment in this ONE EVENT: His resurrection from the dead "In Sabbath's-time" - that is, in literally natural Sabbath Day's-time, for it is written: "In the Sabbath's fulness of light's splendour", when descended an angel and opened the grave of Jesus who at that moment had risen from the dead. OF THIS THE BIBLE-SABBATHS SPOKE AND PROMISED THROUGH ALL THE MILLENNIA SINCE CREATION TO CHRIST. The First Day of the week has had NOTHING OF THIS.
Gerhard

 

[Johnv]

Seven pages... is the "sunday" issue not a dead horse that has been thoroughly beaten?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Seven pages... is the "sunday" issue not a dead horse that has been thoroughly beaten?

Not at all, for as long as that beaten horse lives and thrives on the claimed fact of the resurrection of LIFE from the dead "on the First Day of the week", giving it the only and every reason for being the Christian day of Worship-Rest.
Unless and untill the LIE of this claim for Sunday stays alive, the Sabbath will stay deprived and robbed of its very life-principle - God's ending and finishing and completing and perfecting of His creation and redemption "ON THE SEVENTH DAY" - "thus spoken" of -Hb.4:4, and awaited from the beginning when it "was made" -Mk.2:27 - yet ridiculed through "unbelief" and disobedience.
Gerhard Ebersoehn

 

[Johnv]

Okay, show me in scripture where the day we refer to as Saturday is the actual day of the scriptural "seventh day". While you're at it, show me where the Sabbath Day that the OT Jews observed was the actual day of the genesis 1 "seventh day".

You won't find it. Do you know why? Because people began observing the seven day calendar week long after Genesis 1. The last day of the week REPRESENTS the seventh day of Genesis 1, and that's all. Making this representational observance into more that it is comes from a heart of legalism, which perverts scripture in intent and message.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Seven pages... is the "sunday" issue not a dead horse that has been thoroughly beaten?

Truly the Sabbath had been beaten to death by the same stick - the "LAW"!
Gerhard

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Okay, show me in scripture where the day we refer to as Saturday is the actual day of the scriptural "seventh day". While you're at it, show me where the Sabbath Day that the OT Jews observed was the actual day of the genesis 1 "seventh day".

You won't find it. Do you know why? Because people began observing the seven day calendar week long after Genesis 1. The last day of the week REPRESENTS the seventh day of Genesis 1, and that's all. Making this representational observance into more that it is comes from a heart of legalism, which perverts scripture in intent and message.

First a small correction: Not "by" the same stick, but "with" it. Thanks.

Now for this post of yours, Johnv,
I as everybody else have only one resource that leads back to the beginnings of God's creation, and that is its Creator, who happened to come and visit us here on earth two thousand years ago, and He had no doubts about which day was the Seventh Day of the week! Then after He had left, His Church became the guardian of that Day, and God's own jealousy - His providential CARE for this Day - for HE of course pronounced Himself "Lord of the Sabbath Day". Now also since nobody ever has a problem with knowing which day is the First Day of (creation) week, how come they have difficulty with knowing which day is the Seventh Day? That to me sounds rather stupid.
Gerhard

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Okay, show me in scripture where the day we refer to as Saturday is the actual day of the scriptural "seventh day". While you're at it, show me where the Sabbath Day that the OT Jews observed was the actual day of the genesis 1 "seventh day".

You won't find it. Do you know why? Because people began observing the seven day calendar week long after Genesis 1. The last day of the week REPRESENTS the seventh day of Genesis 1, and that's all. Making this representational observance into more that it is comes from a heart of legalism, which perverts scripture in intent and message.

Then again I may return your question, and ask, show me in scripture where the day we refer to as Saturday is NOT the actual scriptural "seventh day"; show me where the Sabbath Day that the OT Jews observed was NOT the actual day of the genesis 1 "seventh day".
And then I could answer with your own conclusion: You won't find it. Do you know why? Because people began observing the seven day calendar week long after Genesis 1. They had to have known al along! And therefore the last day of the week REPRESENTS the seventh day of Genesis 1, and that's a fact. Making this representational observance into more than it is - a non-entity - comes from a heart of legalism, which perverts scripture in intent and message. (A good definition of 'legalism'!)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Johnv:
Seven pages... is the "sunday" issue not a dead horse that has been thoroughly beaten?

Truly the Sabbath had been beaten to death by the same stick - the "LAW"!
Gerhard </font>[/QUOTE]But in a more serious strain, dear Johnv,
God Tri-Une so well knew which day was the Seventh Day Sabbath "concerning the which He spake in this way: God on the Seventh Day rested from ALL His works" (Hb4:4-5), that he DESTINED or "appointed" IT, and no other day, for "the third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" (1Cor.5): THAT IT HAD TO BE THE DAY OF JESUS' RESURRECTION! It was the third day of the Passover, that had to be the Sabbath, that had to be the Day of the First Sheaf Wave Offering "Before the LORD". On the Sabbath it had to be that Christ would appear before the throne of His Father in heavenly spheres through the exaltation of Him in resurrection from the dead. For the reality and truth of THIS, Christ's Body the Church would every Sabbath Day worship Him as Lord and Saviour Head and King.
Gerhard

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
for HE of course pronounced Himself "Lord of the Sabbath Day".

Ahhh, yes, the same Lord who is the Lord of every day. The same Lord who proclaimed that the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for it. That, plus the fact that we're told in the epistles that we're not to allow anyone to judge us in how we keep the sabbath. Add to that the fact that the day we call Saturday today is not the same day as the seventh day of the week then. The calendar has been shifted and altered, abandoned and reinstituted, several times since then.

Now also since nobody ever has a problem with knowing which day is the First Day of (creation) week, how come they have difficulty with knowing which day is the Seventh Day? That to me sounds rather stupid.

For the same reason that we dont know which day of our week corresponds to the actual first day, and the observance of the first day is a representation, and nothing more, of the first day.

... show me in scripture where the day we refer to as Saturday is NOT the actual scriptural "seventh day"; show me where the Sabbath Day that the OT Jews observed was NOT the actual day of the genesis 1 "seventh day".

Sorry, but that's the same mentality of arguement that the KJVOists use to spew their manmade doctrine. Like KJVOism, the day-of-week doctrine is also a false doctrine. It's not biblically supportable. Like the KJVOists, it is up to YOU to show scriptural proof for your claim, and, lacking scriptural support, you haven't a scriptural leg to stand on, lest you add to scripture.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Ahhh, yes, the same Lord who is the Lord of every day. The same Lord who proclaimed that the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for it.

Your talking in circles; all the while you pre-suppose a specific day, the Sabbath!

That, plus the fact that we're told in the epistles that we're not to allow anyone to judge us in how we keep the sabbath.
Now who would judge another person if that other person wasn't keeping a specific day 'the Sabbath'- in this case of course the Seventh Day of the week as we all know it?
Besides, dear Johnv, Paul then clearly SUPPORTS the Church here in her keeping of the Sabbath Days AGAINST the 'wolrd' that denounced and judged her for doing so! Surely no reason or instruction that the Christian should not observe the Sabbath!

Add to that the fact that the day we call Saturday today is not the same day as the seventh day of the week then. The calendar has been shifted and altered, abandoned and reinstituted, several times since then.
Sorry to sound rude, dear Johnv, but with this remark of yours you show gross ignorance. Historical facts do not support one word of yours.

... that's the same mentality of arguement that the KJVOists ...
Again sorry to disappoint you, I'm not a 'KJVOist'. I like the KJV very much though, and has the greatest respect for it, for the one reason that it at least tries to be true to the Greek. You know that Tyndale - whose Translation formed the basis for the KJV - said that may his part in Christ be taken away if he translated one word against his concience.

... the day-of-week doctrine is also a false doctrine. It's not biblically supportable. Like the KJVOists, it is up to YOU to show scriptural proof for your claim, and, lacking scriptural support, you haven't a scriptural leg to stand on, lest you add to scripture. [/QB]

The best way of defense is attack. A fighting dog will bite his own master if interfered with. Yes, maybe the doctrine of the Seventh day-of-week doctrine is a false doctrine, but the Day cannot be false, "for GOD thus concerning (it) spoke" - I shall always remember. And remeber I shall always that God thus concerning the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ, "concerning the Seventh Day spoke". He in fact "spoke" in and through and by Jesus Christ the Living Person and personal Saviour of every Elect: "concerning the Seventh Day". How in particular: As in verses 8 and 10 of Hebrews 4 specifically: through and by and in Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead, "THUS" referring to "having entered into His Own Rest as God from His", and, "If Jesus had given them rest", then, "THEREFORE there remains (valid) a keeping of the Sabbath Day for the People of God. Jesus BECAME, "Lord of the Sabbath Day indeed" by having risen from the dead. No other way? THAT"S WHY, dear friend, the Church kept on keeping the Sabbath but for this absolutely NEW reason.
That is my "scriptural support" and "leg to stand on as far as the Sabbath is concerned. If you regarded it as "adding to the scriptures", I would not be able to prevent.
Gerhard

 

[Seth3]

Gerhard Ebersoehn says

Now Seth3, I appreciate what you write here, but you should follow through your own thinking : Where, ultimately, is the End or Fulfilment of all the works of God? Not in the death of Christ, but in the resurrection of Him from the dead. This is absolutely clear from the language of Eph.1:19f. If this is so - and it is so - then your arguments here quoted should apply to Christ in His resurrection from the dead, and that happened, precisely "In the Sabbath's fulness being the very light (of day) towards the First Day of the week" - Mt.28:1

Seth3 Replies,

Absolutely thats why He is the BEGINING and THE END HE IS THE FIRST AND THE LAST THE ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING.

First and Seventh both seen in the gospels as in Christ. Us in Him and Him in us. The True Light shining in our hearts is seen even in Genesis' first day.

So I see the Cross of Christ(Seventh day =Its finished) which is God resting from His work. Believing the Word is in our hearts I believe is the making of all things new until the day dawns within. God thus works in hearts through faith in His work. Walking in the Light(Spirit) of the first day I am walking in the Liberty of Christ.

Actually not quibling just sharing as I see it. We both have the completed book its God who teaches and thats how He is showing me this as He is showing you yours right?


God Bless

Seth3

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by wopik:
FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY:
A HISTORICAL INVESTIGATION OF THE RISE OF SUNDAY OBSERVANCE IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY

http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/sabbath_to_sunday/3.html

Dear Wopik,
By now I almost know that book (and how many others of the same author) by heart. I disagree with Bacchiocchi mainly with regard to his stance that Matthew uses the morning as day's beginning. He point blank refuses to answer my criticism. Then I also disagree with him as to the origin of Sunday observance - which he maintains resulted from various factors active during the late second to about the fourth century. I say, no, Sunday "observation" - mark the word - as early as when he wrote to the Galatians was rife in the pagan world, and only in the late second century succesfully convinced the Christian writer Justin Martyr. Bacchiocchi's main defect in Sabbath-doctrine is obvious: that he argues all Jesus' miracles as boosting the Sabbath, one could say; but stops dead before he would admit the greatest of all Jesus' miracles, - His resurrection from the dead - to be of value for the Sabbath Day.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Correction:

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
... as when he wrote to the Galatians [/QB]

,
should be: PAUL wrote, Apologies!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Seth3:
Gerhard Ebersoehn says

Now Seth3, I appreciate what you write here, but you should follow through your own thinking : Where, ultimately, is the End or Fulfilment of all the works of God? Not in the death of Christ, but in the resurrection of Him from the dead. This is absolutely clear from the language of Eph.1:19f. If this is so - and it is so - then your arguments here quoted should apply to Christ in His resurrection from the dead, and that happened, precisely "In the Sabbath's fulness being the very light (of day) towards the First Day of the week" - Mt.28:1

Seth3 Replies,

Absolutely thats why He is the BEGINING and THE END HE IS THE FIRST AND THE LAST THE ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING.

First and Seventh both seen in the gospels as in Christ. Us in Him and Him in us. The True Light shining in our hearts is seen even in Genesis' first day.

So I see the Cross of Christ(Seventh day =Its finished) which is God resting from His work. Believing the Word is in our hearts I believe is the making of all things new until the day dawns within. God thus works in hearts through faith in His work. Walking in the Light(Spirit) of the first day I am walking in the Liberty of Christ.

Actually not quibling just sharing as I see it. We both have the completed book its God who teaches and thats how He is showing me this as He is showing you yours right?


God Bless

Seth3

I at first said I liked your 'eschatology' before having given more attention. Now I must say I much more dislike your allegory. Frankly, I don't believe you know what you are saying yourself. You have NO historicity left, and your reasoning in the end makes of your inner experiences your Christ.

 

[wopik]

"we can indicate with reasons that the justification for Sunday on the basis of the resurrection of Jesus, does not appear until the second century and even then very timidly" - C. S. Mosna, Storia della domenica, p. 357; W. Rordorf, Sabbat (texts), p. xvi.


the appearance by the lake of Tiberias reported by John (21 :1-19) also occurred on the first day of the week "since it took place after a day of rest (John 21:1-3)." Granting such an hypothesis, which is not altogether unlikely, it would mean, however, that Peter and several of the disciples went fishing Saturday night (note they spent the night fishing, John 21:3) after having observed the Sabbath. Fishing on Sunday can hardly be regarded as intentional observance of the day - Pacifico Massi, La Domenica, p. 40.

 

[Seth3]

Gerhard says,

I at first said I liked your 'eschatology' before having given more attention. Now I must say I much more dislike your allegory. Frankly, I don't believe you know what you are saying yourself. You have NO historicity left, and your reasoning in the end makes of your inner experiences your Christ.


Seth3 replies,

I have believed what it says and now I'm hopefully going to walk in the fulfilment of all that is written by the Spirit. All things are SUMMED UP IN CHRIST, Yet* its Christ IN US our hope of Glory. Entering the Seventh Day Rest (Cross of Christ) into the First Day The True Light of all men shed abroad in our hearts. I'll take the reality within the History over the just the History alone any day. Or rather the inner fulfillment of Spirit and Life. Is this not what we are meant to walk in?

Let there be (History) and there WAS (Reality)

God Bless

Seth3

 

[wopik]

BobRyan

In the end - the question of the 4th commandment comes down to the Ten Commandments. What did you do with them?

Abolish them?

Quite the opposite.

Faith in JESUS establishes the Law (Rom 3:31).

http://intercontinentalcog.org/ICGCC/Lesson_Seven.shtml

***************************************

The most important New Testament statement on the Sabbath was spoken by Jesus Christ as quoted in Mark 2:27-28. Jesus not only affirms the Sabbath command, He also instructs us about its purpose.

In the Hebrew, Genesis 2:2 literally says that God "sabbathed"—ceased or rested — on the seventh day from all His work.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07673&version=kjv

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed - God never commands rebellion against His authority, His Government or His Laws.

Christ said "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments".

And as you point out - Paul argues in Romans 3:31 "We do NOT abolish the Law of God by our faith rather we Establish the Law".

It is obedience and harmony with God that is the result of the Gospel work on the heart - not rebellion against Him.

This is why James can say "So live and act as those who are to be judged BY the Law of Liberty" after giving a few examples.

In Christ,

Bob