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Why The RCC Is A Cult

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lakeside

New Member
OldRegular, { Heb.7:25 } - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.

Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23).
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
OldRegular, { Heb.7:25 } - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.
No he did not.
He died once and redeemed all who by grace through faith believe on him, without doing any works at all. Salvation is not by works. (Eph.2:8,9)
Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23).
This passage is speaking of the nation of Israel and the Gentiles relation to it. You are not properly exegeting it, but rather butchering it for your own ends. It remains obvious you don't know what the Scripture teaches. Paul makes no reference here to John 15, nor is teaching on that subject.

Salvation is by faith and by faith alone.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 4:1-5
(1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
(2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
(3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In verses 1-3 Paul takes great pains to show that Abraham was justified or made righteous by faith alone and not by any works at all.

Then in verse 4 he states that works is opposite of grace. Works demands a reward, just like a man who works all day long demands his "reward" or wage at the end of the day. He deserves it. It is not a gift, but a reward for his work.
But grace is freely given. Grace is a gift.

In verse 5, Paul states that Justification comes to those that do not works at all but simply to those that believe. That person's faith is counted for righteousness.
Faith without works is that faith that justifies. No work can be done in order to be justified. Faith alone is what is required. Paul makes this very clear in this passage. If one adds works he is condemned, not condoned.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
OldRegular, { Heb.7:25 } - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.

Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23).

Aren't you violating the canons of Trent and disobeying the the teaching magisterium and the pope by attempting to exegete Scripture? From my post #188:

In fact according to Trent you are not allowed to interpret Scripture any way but that approved by the RCCult!

Furthermore, in order to restrain petulant spirits, It decrees, that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,--in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, --wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,--hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established.http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct04.html
 

lakeside

New Member
Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone ( Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.
 

lakeside

New Member
You Protestants say I'm wrong in my interpretation of my previous verses/passages. How can you prove it? You mean you think Jesus left a loose-knit church and to each his own on interpretating the scriptures? Far from it! Apparently you haven't read the Bible as well as you think.
Again,who is to say your understandings of the scripture is correct? The Lutheran,Methodist,Baptist, Presbyterian,1st Baptist,etc,etc all claim their's is the correct individual interpretation. Who has the correct understanding? How about the Church that selected the correct Canonical Books,and that was the Catholic Church, right, RIGHT. Where do you turn when you cannot see eye-to-eye on a certain scriptural verse? The Bible? What does the Bible say?
You think of the Bible as the 'only' source of God's revelation or authority,but no where does Scripture teach such a notion or doctrine.
You have also missed the message from the scriptures. How could 36,400 sects all have the same understanding? If the truth is one and you claim you comprehend, then why the need to have new churches?
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone ( Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation.

I'm not sure at the end of the day if there's much difference in saying "good works are necessary for salvation" and "good works flow necessarily from a true and lively faith" as long as by the first one doesn't mean that our works are somehow part of the meritorious ground of our salvation. Works are necesseary in the sense that they are the evidentiary proof of a lively faith by which we comprehend Christ and HIS Merits. Classical Protestants can affirm the latter but not the former.

Now, of course, if folks don't continue to actively abide in Christ (by a faith which works through love), they are cast off as branches and no longer have HIS Righteousness imputed to them, but that's a whole other discussion...
:smilewinkgrin:

Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.

I don't know, man, Jesus said by their fruits you would know them. And also, although we are not justified upon the meritorius ground of our own works, but only by His imputed righteousness, He also stated in John 5:28-29 that those who have done good will partake in the resurrection of life, and does that have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
You Protestants say I'm wrong in my interpretation of my previous verses/passages. How can you prove it? You mean you think Jesus left a loose-knit church and to each his own on interpretating the scriptures? Far from it! Apparently you haven't read the Bible as well as you think.
Again,who is to say your understandings of the scripture is correct? The Lutheran,Methodist,Baptist, Presbyterian,1st Baptist,etc,etc all claim their's is the correct individual interpretation. Who has the correct understanding? How about the Church that selected the correct Canonical Books,and that was the Catholic Church, right, RIGHT. Where do you turn when you cannot see eye-to-eye on a certain scriptural verse? The Bible? What does the Bible say?
You think of the Bible as the 'only' source of God's revelation or authority,but no where does Scripture teach such a notion or doctrine.
You have also missed the message from the scriptures. How could 36,400 sects all have the same understanding? If the truth is one and you claim you comprehend, then why the need to have new churches?

You have a pathetic salvation lakeside, never knowing when death will come and where your eternal abode will be, heaven or hell!

Scripture tells us if you are allowed to believe it by your "puppet masters":

John 6:37-40
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Philippians 1:6
6. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

John 10:27-31
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.
31. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.


I have no doubt that if the pope and teaching magisterium heard Jesus Christ speak the above words they would do as the Jews did "take up stones to stone Him" for the above Scripture destroys the hold the "puppet masters" have over those within the RCCult. But that is the nature of a Cult.

Remember the Branch Davidians in Waco. http://www.npr.org/2013/04/20/178063471/two-decades-later-some-branch-davidians-still-believe

Remember the tragedy of Jim Jones and the hundreds in South America. http://history1900s.about.com/od/1970s/p/jonestown.htm
 

lakeside

New Member
I attempt to be saved by the Bible along with the direct Divine Teachings as applied by the Teacher [ Our Lord and Savior/ God Jesus the Christ ] to His apostles and since Jesus wants all generations saved, not just the 1St Century Christians but all generations of Christians, so He commanded His Apostles to ordain Successors, as per bible.

I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am " working out my salvation in fear and trembling" { Phil. 2: 12 }, knowing that it is a gift of grace that is working in me.
 

BrotherJoseph

Well-Known Member
I attempt to be saved by the Bible along with the direct Divine Teachings as applied by the Teacher [ Our Lord and Savior/ God Jesus the Christ ] to His apostles and since Jesus wants all generations saved, not just the 1St Century Christians but all generations of Christians, so He commanded His Apostles to ordain Successors, as per bible.

After the time of Paul, scripture teaches wolves infiltrated the church with a false gospel. "29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." (Acts 20:29-30)
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I attempt to be saved
Then you are not saved. I don't attempt to be saved.
I am saved. Either you are or you are not.
John in his first epistle said:
"He that has the Son has life; he that has not the Son has not life."
--It is that simple. You either have the Son of God dwelling in you or you don't. You either have eternal life or you don't. There is no sitting on the fence here. There is no such thing as "attempting."
by the Bible along with the direct Divine Teachings as applied by the Teacher [ Our Lord and Savior/ God Jesus the Christ ] to His apostles
The Bible alone was inspired. It was settled by the end of the first century. We have 66 books, written by about 40 authors over a period of 1500 years all covering the same theme--redemption through Jesus Christ. Concerning the NT we have over 5,000 MSS attesting to its veracity none of which contradict any doctrine. There is more reliable documentation to prove the trustworthiness and veracity of the Bible than there is to prove the works of Shakespeare.
and since Jesus wants all generations saved, not just the 1St Century Christians but all generations of Christians, so He commanded His Apostles to ordain Successors, as per bible.
No such command was ever given. That is a lie, at the least, or perhaps an inference read into the Scripture through a gross misinterpretation given to you by a Catholic apologist who doesn't know how to use the Bible but does know how to pervert it.
I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am " working out my salvation in fear and trembling" { Phil. 2: 12 }, knowing that it is a gift of grace that is working in me.
No one is redeemed by works. One is redeemed by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, and never by works.
 

Walter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Then you are not saved. I don't attempt to be saved.

Here is what the bible actually says about being saved:

"The Bible says, I am already saved Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8, but I’m also being saved 1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12, and I have the hope that I will be saved Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15. St. Paul said: 'I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling' Phil. 2:12, 'with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ' Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13."
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
After the time of Paul, scripture teaches wolves infiltrated the church with a false gospel. "29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." (Acts 20:29-30)

Very timely response BJ. However, rescuing someone from the RCCult is apparently far more difficult than rescuing someone from the "Moonies" of several years ago!
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Here is what the bible actually says about being saved:

"The Bible says, I am already saved Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8, but I’m also being saved 1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12, and I have the hope that I will be saved Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15. St. Paul said: 'I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling' Phil. 2:12, 'with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ' Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13."

This is what Jesus Christ says about being saved:

John 3:14-18
14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Notice the only requirement for Salvation; FAITH! Just as DHK has stated frequently. And as a refugee from Roman Catholicism he knows!

And as I posted earlier:

John 6:37-40
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:27-31
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30. I and my Father are one.
31. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

By believing what the pope and teaching magisterium teach rather than believing what Jesus Christ teaches you are just like the Jews who wanted to stone Jesus Christ and in time did Crucify Him. Sorry, you of the RCCult do worse than stone Him, you Crucify Him continually, each and every time you participate in the mass!
 

lakeside

New Member
But OldRegular, "The Bible says, { NEW TESTAMENT, it contains the Teachings of Jesus }just as Walter wrote in his previous post----" I am already saved Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8, but I’m also being saved 1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12, and I have the hope that I will be saved Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15. St. Paul said: 'I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling' Phil. 2:12, 'with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ' Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13." Why do you question the Teachings of Jesus ?
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
But OldRegular, "The Bible says, { NEW TESTAMENT, it contains the Teachings of Jesus }just as Walter wrote in his previous post----" I am already saved Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8, but I’m also being saved 1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12, and I have the hope that I will be saved Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15. St. Paul said: 'I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling' Phil. 2:12, 'with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ' Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13." Why do you question the Teachings of Jesus ?

I don't question the teachings of Jesus Christ. God is not the author of confusion. God does not contradict Himself. You just need to understand how to interpret Scripture.

So why not present the above Scripture and then show how you arrive at your erroneous interpretation; assuming you can get permission from the "puppet masters"!
 

lakeside

New Member
OldRegular, of course God is not the author of confusion, just take a look in the telephone yellow pages under Christian churches , you will then see who the many authors of confusion really are; the result of just many conflicting, confused interpretations of mere-men.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
OldRegular, of course God is not the author of confusion, just take a look in the telephone yellow pages under Christian churches , you will then see who the many authors of confusion really are; the result of just many conflicting, confused interpretations of mere-men.
For the apparent differences that you see among Evangelical Christianity it pales in comparison to the differences among the various sects of Catholicism. The RCC is like a chameleon blending in with different pagan religions even absorbing some of their various pagan practices.

A missionary from Mexico used to post here and tell how in Mexico they would bow down before idols there and offer sacrifices to idols. Pure paganism.
Then you probably know about Charismatic Catholics.
Old Rite Catholics.
You have your liberal wing that is pushing for female priests.

Some examples:
A Holocaust-denying Catholic bishop who made headlines in 2009 when Pope Benedict XVI rehabilitated him and members of his breakaway traditionalist society is heading for new trouble with the Vatican.

Vatican crisis over bishop who denies the Holocaust
Bishop Richard Williamson is planning to consecrate a new bishop on Thursday in Brazil without Pope Francis’s consent – a church crime punishable by excommunication.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/18/vatican-bishop-consecration-without-pope-approval
Or
Pope Francis prays alongside Grand Mufti in Istanbul’s Blue Mosque
Pope treads carefully in footsteps of predecessor in ‘moment of silent adoration’ to mark religious cooperation during Turkey visit
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/29/pope-francis-turkey-pray-blue-mosque-islam-cooperation
It is not hard to find things that cause dissension in the ranks.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
OldRegular, of course God is not the author of confusion, just take a look in the telephone yellow pages under Christian churches , you will then see who the many authors of confusion really are; the result of just many conflicting, confused interpretations of mere-men.

These mere men you mention have not deliberately and with malice corrupted the inspired Word of God one tenth of one percent as much as your "puppet masters" and that is the truth. The Roman Catholic Cult is no more Christian than the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses, or the Unitarians, or any other so-called Christian Cult.

The pope and teaching Magisterium have added heretical canons and infallible papal declarations to the teaching of Scripture which sadly take precedence over the written Word of God, the Bible. Rome has taken the Jewish sacrificial system and substituted the doctrine of transubstantiation with its continual blood re-sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the sacrifice of animals.

Considering the whole of what the pope, pagan or not, and the teaching magisterium has done to the Christian Faith is blasphemy and not of God but of Satan. There is without doubt a movement within Roman Catholicism to make Mary co-redeemer with Jesus Christ. It has already been proclaimed but not with the force of an infallible decree from the pope. If the LORD delays His return long enough Mary will be named co-redeemer. Perhaps that is what He is waiting for, the final apostasy!

Following is brief history, presented earlier, of the progressive movement to make Mary co-redeemer. This is not the work of God but of Satan.

THE VIRGIN MARY AS CO-REDEMPTRIX, MEDIATRIX AND ADVOCATE

Current status of Mary:

From: http://www.religioustolerance.org/mary_cor.htm

Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status.

The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:

1. Mary is the Mother of God.

2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life.

Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19th and 20th centuries:

3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE.

4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1

1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. 1

1964-NOV-21: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II, and "Solemnly promulgated by Holiness Pope Paul VI" states, in part:

"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" 2

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." 3

"...the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator."

"For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source." (Footnotes deleted) 7

1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." 4

1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." 1

1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." 1

Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.


Petition drive to promote an infallible statement:

Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." 3 Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:

Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.
Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.
Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.

If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. 5,6


References:

1. "Rome says Mary is Co-redeemer, mediator, advocate," Way of Life, at: http://www.whidbey.net/~dcloud/fbns/marycoredeemer.htm

2. Vatican II, "Lumen Gentium: Dogmatic Constitution of the Church," Chapter 8, The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of god in the mystery of Christ and the Church, II, 56, Pages 380 & 381. Online at: http://www.cin.org/v2church.html

3. Ibid II, 62, Pages 382 & 383.

4. "Inside the Vatican," 1997-JUL, Page 23; as cited in Reference 3.

5. J.J. Russell, "Millions petition pontiff to give Mary new status," The Toronto Star, 2000-DEC-23, Page A20.

6. "The meaning of Mary: A struggle over her role grows within the church," Newsweek cover story, 1997-AUG-25.

7. Vatican II, "Lumen Gentium: Dogmatic Constitution of the Church," Chapter 8, "The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of god in the mystery of Christ and the Church," III, 62. See: http://www.cin.org/v2church.html
 

Walter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
For the apparent differences that you see among Evangelical Christianity it pales in comparison to the differences among the various sects of Catholicism. The RCC is like a chameleon blending in with different pagan religions even absorbing some of their various pagan practices.

A missionary from Mexico used to post here and tell how in Mexico they would bow down before idols there and offer sacrifices to idols. Pure paganism.
Then you probably know about Charismatic Catholics.
Old Rite Catholics.
You have your liberal wing that is pushing for female priests.

Some examples:
A Holocaust-denying Catholic bishop who made headlines in 2009 when Pope Benedict XVI rehabilitated him and members of his breakaway traditionalist society is heading for new trouble with the Vatican.


Or

It is not hard to find things that cause dissension in the ranks.

There are NO various sects of the Holy Catholic Church. There are different rites but they are of the same faith. Evangelicalism is a MESS. You have more and more evangelicals all the time who ordain non-celibate homosexuals. Many have predicted that the evangelical collapse regarding homosexuality will be swift and for the very reason that their biblical interpretation is already so very individualized and they make much of being moved by the Spirit, God speaking to their hearts etc. For the most part it always been a house of cards waiting for one strong breeze to knock the whole thing over. You have evangelicals who deny that anyone goes to Hell (Rob Bell & company), you have evangelicals denying the virgin birth, evangelicals who believe in Soul Sleep, and the list goes on and on and on. You have the cal/non-cal gang right here on the good ole' BB that are at each others throats all the time. NASTY, NASTY remarks made about each other. What kind of Christian witness is that??? No your divisions are DEEP and getting DEEPER all the time. The evangelical house of cards is falling faster than I would have ever thought.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
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The fact is that you don't know the difference between an intercessor and a mediator.

Where in the Bible does God approve of any praying to mary or any of the Apostles in order to have them intercede on our behalf though?

ONLY Jesus and the Holy Spirit are able to do that for the saved, as they are both God!
 
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