Why the Sunday-keeping Church thinks of Sunday as the Sabbath

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

May I use the opportunity to invite BobRayn and the rest of you, for a discussion on thread, "Why the Sunday-keeping Church thinks of Sunday as the Sabbath?" See you there, God willing!

I and my deceased brother who was a Seventh Day Adventist sometimes discussed our different views and reasons for believing the Seventh Day Sabbath - I am, and since my early twenties, have not been, a SDA.
I tried to explain to him, My Reformed brethren believe Sunday is the Sabbath mainly because they believe Jesus was resurrected on the First Day of the week ... of course Sunday. My brother's answer was - like that of every SDA I know - Jesus' resurrection is not a Scriptural reason for the keeping of the day upon which He rose from the dead. 'It's not a Scriptural reason.' There's the crux of the 'issue' I would like to have discussed. Over!

 

[larryjf]

May I use the opportunity to invite BobRayn and the rest of you, for a discussion on thread, "Why the Sunday-keeping Church thinks of Sunday as the Sabbath?" See you there, God willing!

I and my deceased brother who was a Seventh Day Adventist sometimes discussed our different views and reasons for believing the Seventh Day Sabbath - I am, and since my early twenties, have not been, a SDA.
I tried to explain to him, My Reformed brethren believe Sunday is the Sabbath mainly because they believe Jesus was resurrected on the First Day of the week ... of course Sunday. My brother's answer was - like that of every SDA I know - Jesus' resurrection is not a Scriptural reason for the keeping of the day upon which He rose from the dead. 'It's not a Scriptural reason.' There's the crux of the 'issue' I would like to have discussed. Over!

If i could show you in Scripture where Sunday is called the Sabbath would you agree that is a good reason for celebrating the Sabbath on Sunday?

 

[Eliyahu]

Sunday is the first day of the week or 8th day, not the Sabbath.

Sabbath is the seventh day. But I don't celebrate the Sabbath as Jesus is my Sabbath.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Sunday is the first day of the week or 8th day, not the Sabbath.

Amen! Sunday is the Lord's day not the Sabbath.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Sunday is the first day of the week or 8th day, not the Sabbath.

Sabbath is the seventh day. But I don't celebrate the Sabbath as Jesus is my Sabbath.

Yup - good enough for me!

 

[BobRyan]

If i could show you in Scripture where Sunday is called the Sabbath would you agree that is a good reason for celebrating the Sabbath on Sunday?

I might actually go for that --

Show me where week-day-1 is called "The Sabbath" as in a weekly Sabbath.

Recall that in Lev 23 there are also annual Sabbaths that can fall on almost any day of the week.

 

[larryjf]

I might actually go for that --

Show me where week-day-1 is called "The Sabbath" as in a weekly Sabbath.

Recall that in Lev 23 there are also annual Sabbaths that can fall on almost any day of the week.

Mat 28:1 in the ESV reads...
Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.

In the Greek the bold actually reads...
at the end of sabbaths toward the first of sabbaths

So there you have the very Sunday of our Lord's resurrection called the "first of sabbaths."

You find similar wording in Mk 16.

 

[BobRyan]

You find "week" and a version of "sabbaton" used. This is far from "week-day-1 is Sabbath" as has been shown repeatedly.

But I seem to recall that Harold Camping likes to imagine it quite differently than recognized Bible scholars do.

Try inserting "Seventh day Sabbath" each time you find the sabbaton for week in the NT and see where that gets you.

I will show you a few examples if you don't have time for the exercise yourself.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[larryjf]

You find "week" and a version of "sabbaton" used. This is far from "week-day-1 is Sabbath" as has been shown repeatedly.

But I seem to recall that Harold Camping likes to imagine it quite differently than recognized Bible scholars do.

Try inserting "Seventh day Sabbath" each time you find the sabbaton for week in the NT and see where that gets you.

I will show you a few examples if you don't have time for the exercise yourself.

in Christ,

Bob

I have no idea what some of Camping's teachings are.

The word "sabbaton" is used in both instances in the verse.
Just as God finished His work in the original creation and sanctified the day, so God sanctified the day that He finished His work in the new creation.

 

[Joe]

May I use the opportunity to invite BobRayn and the rest of you, for a discussion on thread, "Why the Sunday-keeping Church thinks of Sunday as the Sabbath?" See you there, God willing!

I'll attempt this, but may get eaten up. Please be gentle
I have asked various Pastors, none believe Sunday is the correct Sabbath Day.

When asked, they offered me 2-4 bible verses then refer to the “Spirit” of the law of regarding the 10 commandments. I ask how they honor the 4th commandment “in spirit” since the only requirement is to honor a specified day, the Saturday Sabbath. They usually just stare for a bit.....then refer back to the same bible verses.

I am not fully convinced in my own mind that breaking the 4th commandment is a good idea so our family attempts to obey all 10 commandments. There are various passages in the NT which remind us to obey the commandments. Hopefully, these are referring to the 10 commandments because that is how I read them.

Scripture below appears to prove honoring the 4th Commandment is not a requirement. Also, many people believe the 10 commandments were given only to the Isrealites

Romans 14:5, 6: "One person esteems one day above another, another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.
Romans 8:2 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For "the law" of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I believe "the law" here is referring specifically to the old laws which may or may not, include the 10 commandments.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter
Romans 7: 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin

 

[BobRyan]

I have no idea what some of Camping's teachings are.

The word "sabbaton" is used in both instances in the verse.
Just as God finished His work in the original creation and sanctified the day, so God sanctified the day that He finished His work in the new creation.

Glad to see you don't read Camping -- now try to avoid his antic with sabbaton for week.

Luke 18
God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess” (18:11-12, .

The phrase “twice a week” comes from the Greek dis tou sabbatou. Obviously Jesus was not saying that the Pharisee boasted of fasting twice on the Sabbath day, but twice (dis) a week (tou sabbatou).

 

[BobRyan]

I'll attempt this. I have asked various Pastors, none believe Sunday is the correct Sabbath Day.

I have to agree there.

When asked, they offered me 2-4 bible verses then refer to the “Spirit” of the law of regarding the 10 commandments. I ask how they honor the 4th commandment “in spirit” since the only requirement is to honor the Saturday Sabbath. They usually just stare for a bit.....then refer back to the same bible verses.

I am not fully convinced in my own mind that breaking the 4th commandment is a good idea so our family attempts to obey all 10 commandments. There are various passages in the NT which remind us to obey the commandments.

Well said!

good points all.

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith?? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

In Romans 7 we find that the "Law is holy just and good".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BTW I agree with the general approach Joe is using - you have to first decide to honor or trash the Commandments of God - THEN having made that decision - take whatever the logical next step is with Christ our Creator's Memorial of HIS Creative act in making all life on this planet.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

John 14:15 ”If you love Me keep My commandments”

These are the Words of Christ the Creator as He quotes from the 2nd commandment.

But what exactly did these pre-cross words of Christ “mean” to His Jewish followers – the “primary audience” that exegesis would have us consider?

Lets see if we can discover that by looking at some more statements found in God’s Word.

Matt 5:17-22
17 Think not that I am come to[b] destroy the law[/b], or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”.

Matt 5:27-28 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, b]Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.[/B]

Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”. No wonder Paul says --

Romans 3:31 [b]“Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God”[/b]

So lets see. The law will not change in even the minutest way, till heaven and earth pass. Anyone who breaks the law, and teaches others to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Thinking about committing sin is now just like actually committing the sin. Ah, the law has been magnified. Christ came and fulfilled the law, observing all of it’s commands, even in thought, not just action.

Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.

John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”

Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.

Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same

John 12:50
"I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

Notice that John promotes this theme not only with his recording the pre-cross statements of Christ the hCreator – but also the post –cross teaching.

I Jn 2:3-4 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[/quote]
Christ condemns those who would break the Commandments of God for the sake of man-made tradition –

Matthew 15:3
And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment after His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)


I Jn 5:2-3 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 12:17 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[larryjf]

Glad to see you don't read Camping -- now try to avoid his antic with sabbaton for week.

Luke 18
God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess” (18:11-12, .

The phrase “twice a week” comes from the Greek dis tou sabbatou. Obviously Jesus was not saying that the Pharisee boasted of fasting twice on the Sabbath day, but twice (dis) a week (tou sabbatou).

You say that it is obvious that he didn't fact twice on the Sabbath day, but couldn't the Greek be translated, "i fast doubly on the sabbath?"

 

[Joe]

We are going to our in-laws soon for dinner, so I don't have time to look up many verses at the moment. Imho, everyone ought to read the verses Bob provided. Especially his/the words," in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.


If we say we have no sin, then we are liars. Imho, we must make a genuine attempt to obey the commandments, but we need to understand we are not able to without Jesus. His grace and mercy upon us is key. Since we are not without sin, we can't obey at all times, period. Christ came to fulfill the law, not disregard it. He will cover us where we fail (no verse for that one, but many verses combined = that conclusion)

Yet if we don't genuinely attempt to obey the 10 commandments, then what? Will he save us? Who knows, but I would rather be safe than sorry.

Obviously, there is scripture contrary to what I believe. But I see nothing to loose in obeying the 10 commandments as best we can. Now following "the law" is another issue. No one does this, but many "cherry pick" in an attempt to. That's fine with me Imho, God appreciates the honor (as long as we don't loose our relationship over it. Our attention being more focused on following too many OT rules ) Balance is key.

 

[BobRyan]

You say that it is obvious that he didn't fact twice on the Sabbath day, but couldn't the Greek be translated, "i fast doubly on the sabbath?"

Here we have the example of five Sunday-keeping Bible scholars who see the issue clearly (Gill, Lightfoot, Jamieson, Fausset, Brown)


Luke 18

God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess” (18:11-12, .

The phrase “twice a week” comes from the Greek dis tou sabbatou. Obviously Jesus was not saying that the Pharisee boasted of fasting twice on the Sabbath day, but twice (dis) a week (tou sabbatou).

Jamieson Fausset Brown –
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/JamiesonFaussetBrown/jfb.cgi?book=lu&chapter=018

Not confining himself to the one divinely prescribed annual fast (Leviticus 16:29), he was not behind the most rigid, who fasted on the second and fifth days of every week [LIGHTFOOT], and gave the tenth not only of what the law laid under tithing, but of "all his gains." Thus, besides doing all his duty, he did works of supererogation; while sins to confess and spiritual wants to be supplied he seems to have felt none. What a picture of the Pharisaic character and religion!

John Gill
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=lu&chapter=018&verse=012&next=013&prev=011

fast twice in the week�
Not "on the sabbath", as the words may be literally rendered, and as they are in the Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions; for the sabbath was not a fasting, but a feasting day with the Jews; for they were obliged to eat three meals, or feasts, on a sabbath day, one in the morning, another at evening, and another at the time of the meat offering: even the poorest man in Israel, who was maintained by alms, was obliged to keep these three feasts . It was forbidden a man to fast, until the sixth hour, on a sabbath day; that is, till noon : wherefore, it is a great mistake in Justin and Suetonius , that the sabbath was kept by the Jews as a fast.

But the word is rightly rendered, "in the week"; the whole seven days, or week, were by the Jews commonly called the sabbath; hence, (tbvb dxa) , "the first of the sabbath", and the second of the sabbath, and the third of the sabbath ; that is, the first, second, and third days of the week. Now the two days in the week on which they fasted were Monday and Thursday, the second and fifth days; on which days the law of Moses, and the book of Esther were read, by the order of Ezra ; and fasts for the congregation were appointed on those days ; and so a private person, or a single man, as in this instance, took upon him, or chose to fast on the same the reason of this is, by some, said to be, because Moses went up to Mount Sinai on a Thursday, and came down on a Monday {o}. But though these men fasted so often, they took care not to hurt themselves; for they allowed themselves to eat in the night till break of day. It is asked
``how long may a man eat and drink, i.e. on a fast day? until the pillar of the morning ascends (day breaks); these are the words of Rabbi (Judah): R. Eliezer ben Simeon says, until cock crowing.''
So that they had not so much reason to boast of these performances: he adds,
I give tithes of all that I possess;

 

[skypair]

Joe, BR,

I admire that you want to live "lawful" lives. Living in a Judeo-Christian society, that will always be a path to blessing from God. However, if you subject yourselves to the law, you are servant to obey ALL the law (legal, ceremonial, etc.). And it often leads to one not obeying the Spirit, the "2nd Master."

*John 1:17 has some important things to say about that law. "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." 1) Jesus brought a new form of divine grace which had not existed in the OT. (came = originated) 2) The grace that comes through Jesus REPLACES for the law that came through Moses. That is, it serves the believer in place of law.

We KNOW that the law never saves -- it only condemns our misbehavior in this life. Now the Spirit is given -- a sort of example, the life of Jesus -- to know how to live (consider how many times the Pharisees thought that Jesus was violating the law and you see the difference between law and Spirit).

And Paul says this in Rom 6:14 -- "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Law and grace are interchangeable here. Both are rules of life with grace being far preferred in this Christian age since grace is not imposed esternally to condemnation but internally by a) the indwelling Holy Spirit and b) our own predisposition to do God's will on account of repentance to Christ.

skypair

* Largely taken from Renald Showers There Really Is a Difference.

 

[Joe]

Funny, I thought I just answered this and hit submit. But it didn't show up

Joe, BR,I admire that you want to live "lawful" lives. Living in a Judeo-Christian society, that will always be a path to blessing from God. However, if you subject yourselves to the law, you are servant to obey ALL the law (legal, ceremonial, etc.). And it often leads to one not obeying the Spirit, the "2nd Master."

Great post. I don't understand one thing. I don't see where following the 10 commandments means one must follow all the whole OT laws. No one does this. Unless it is mentioned again in the NT, then why follow them? Otherwise, it is cherry picking.

There are many passages in the NT which state we are to obey the 10 commandments.

John 1:17 has some important things to say about that law. "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." 1) Jesus brought a new form of divine grace which had not existed in the OT. (came = originated) 2) The grace that comes through Jesus REPLACES for the law that came through Moses. That is, it serves the believer in place of law.

Amen

I will add that just because one strives to obey the 10 commandments literally, doesn't automatically mean they do a better job as someone who follows them in spirit. Maybe they have more patience for their parents than I do, etc...