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Why the Sunday-keeping Church thinks of Sunday as the Sabbath
- Thread starter Gerhard Ebersoehn
- Start date
BobRyan said:
1. This only points to the fact that Moses was still being preached in the synagogues among the Jews. James never said that they were keeping the Sabbath. I see a difference. Don't you?
2. It was Paul's strategy to go before the Jews, where they were gathered, to reason with them that Jesus is the Christ (Acts 17:2). Paul went for a purpose.
3. Notice that in Luke usually say the Jews and God-fearers, not the disciples and believers met during the Sabbath.
4. Judaism still existed parallel to the Christian community, commonly called the Way in Acts.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The correction comes in when you take in the context for Acts 15.
1. Acts 13 we SEE the gentiles in the synagogues WITH Christians in Sabbath after Sabbath services.
2. In Acts 15 we do NOT have a debate among Christians as to whether non-saved Jews are supposed to keep doing what they do nor do we have a discussion about whether non-saved Jews "exist", nor is it a discussion about non-saved jews wanting the christian jews to make a decision for them about their Sabbath services NOR is this an issue where Christian Jews are losing a place to hear Moses each sabbath if Gentile Christians don't change and become Jews.
Rather the issue is whether CHRISTIAN gentiles "need to become Jews" to be saved.... The point of Moses being preached each Sabbath is to address the issue of GENTILES hearing scripure each Sabbath EVEN if they are not Jews. James argues that those who insist that they need to become Jews are mistaken about the risk to Gentiles in NOT doing that since the Gentiles STILL hear Moses (scripture) every Sabbath just as we see in Acts 13 and in Acts 17!
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Except that Gentiles are not only "there" but once the Jews reject and pull out as strong objectors -- they STILL continue Sabbath meetings for the sake of Gentiles!!
How much simpler to say to the Gentiles who are overwhelmly accepting what the Jews are overwhelming rejecting "Hey good news - we are having week-day-1 services in John's field tomorrow so meet us there tomorrow"
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"No evidence"??
Acts 13
14 But going on from Perga, they arrived at Pisidian Antioch, and on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down.[/b]
15 After the reading of the Law and the Prophets the synagogue officials sent to them, saying, ""Brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it.''
16 Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, "[b]"Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:
…
26 ""Brethren, sons of Abraham's family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent.
…
38 ""Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
40 ""Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
41 " BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH; FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS, A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.'''
42 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.
45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.
At this point it is clear that a huge amount of interest was generated among Gentiles at the previous meeting.
It is also clear that no “first-day Worship service” meeting is being mentioned here nor even a “first-day Bible study” meeting. And that is very curious for a group that is just now INTRODUCING a change from Sabbath worship to week-day-1 worship services. (Supposedly introducing that new idea to BOTH Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians).
Clearly the Synagogue meeting provided Bible study and worship to BOTH Gentiles and Jews BEFORE Paul’s visit and clearly Paul used that same forum to promote Judeo-Christian doctrine when they arrived. There is no case where NT saints are seen to ask people not to worship and study scripture in the Synagogues and start doing that on week-day-1 instead.
It is also clear that those who are asking for another Bible study “the next Sabbath” includes a significant number of gentiles such that “the next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembles” – and yet Paul says nothing about “hey why not just come back tomorrow to Joe’s farm and join us for worship and Bible study”
In Acts 17:1-4 this continues for 3 Sabbaths in a row until the Jews try to stop it.
Acts 13
14 But going on from Perga, they arrived at Pisidian Antioch, and on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down.[/b]
15 After the reading of the Law and the Prophets the synagogue officials sent to them, saying, ""Brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it.''
16 Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, "[b]"Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:
…
26 ""Brethren, sons of Abraham's family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent.
…
38 ""Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
40 ""Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
41 " BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH; FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS, A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.'''
42 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.
45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.
At this point it is clear that a huge amount of interest was generated among Gentiles at the previous meeting.
It is also clear that no “first-day Worship service” meeting is being mentioned here nor even a “first-day Bible study” meeting. And that is very curious for a group that is just now INTRODUCING a change from Sabbath worship to week-day-1 worship services. (Supposedly introducing that new idea to BOTH Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians).
Clearly the Synagogue meeting provided Bible study and worship to BOTH Gentiles and Jews BEFORE Paul’s visit and clearly Paul used that same forum to promote Judeo-Christian doctrine when they arrived. There is no case where NT saints are seen to ask people not to worship and study scripture in the Synagogues and start doing that on week-day-1 instead.
It is also clear that those who are asking for another Bible study “the next Sabbath” includes a significant number of gentiles such that “the next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembles” – and yet Paul says nothing about “hey why not just come back tomorrow to Joe’s farm and join us for worship and Bible study”
In Acts 17:1-4 this continues for 3 Sabbaths in a row until the Jews try to stop it.
BobRyan said:
1. Luke never says that after becoming followers of Christ, the Gentiles continued to worship in the synagogues on the Sabbath. I see no evidence of that.
2. It was Paul's custom to go the synagogues to reason from Scripture abou the Christ (Acts 17:2).
3. You are failing to emphasize WHY Paul went.
4. Notice the difference at Acts 20:1-7.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1. Clearly we do see the gentiles worshipping on Sabbath in Acts 13 and Acts 17 in the context of Christian Gospel evangelism to the "people of God" including BOTH Jews and Gentiles. Often in those cases it is the gentiles that overwhelmingly accept and the Jews reject.
2. Clearly we do see this reference admitted in Acts 15 when the subject of Gentiles comes up in the context of what they will be doing as Christians.
(It is assumed at this point that all in this list agree that the OT contained 39 books and that Gentiles were probably reading the LXX in the case of Acts 13, Acts 17 etc)
3. It is clear from Mark 2:27 that Christ considered His Holy day to be "for mankind" and that Gentiles are humans.
4. It is also clear from Isaiah 66 that the scope for Christ our Creator's Seventh-day Sabbath was to be "ALL mankind".
Again we observe that "gentiles are human".
5. In the case of the Acts 13 reference it is the gentiles that are accepting the message of the gospel and returning the next Sabbath to hear more.
It is also clear in Acts 13 that the non-Christian Jews were in opposition to evangelizing gentiles on Sabbath and Paul was "all for it". Paul is the one that said "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for people of God".
So although non-Christian Jews opposed evangelism, Bible study and worship services for Gentiles on Sabbath IF it was to be in a Christian Gospel context -- Paul never calls for an end to it -- no not once in all of scripture
I doubt that it ever occurred to Paul that either Gentile Christians or Jewish Christians were not "the People of God"
in Christ,
Bob
2. Clearly we do see this reference admitted in Acts 15 when the subject of Gentiles comes up in the context of what they will be doing as Christians.
(It is assumed at this point that all in this list agree that the OT contained 39 books and that Gentiles were probably reading the LXX in the case of Acts 13, Acts 17 etc)
3. It is clear from Mark 2:27 that Christ considered His Holy day to be "for mankind" and that Gentiles are humans.
4. It is also clear from Isaiah 66 that the scope for Christ our Creator's Seventh-day Sabbath was to be "ALL mankind".
Again we observe that "gentiles are human".
5. In the case of the Acts 13 reference it is the gentiles that are accepting the message of the gospel and returning the next Sabbath to hear more.
It is also clear in Acts 13 that the non-Christian Jews were in opposition to evangelizing gentiles on Sabbath and Paul was "all for it". Paul is the one that said "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for people of God".
So although non-Christian Jews opposed evangelism, Bible study and worship services for Gentiles on Sabbath IF it was to be in a Christian Gospel context -- Paul never calls for an end to it -- no not once in all of scripture
I doubt that it ever occurred to Paul that either Gentile Christians or Jewish Christians were not "the People of God"
in Christ,
Bob
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BR,
We ought not be disagreeing on this issue. I respect the day you worship and why. It is "weak" Christianity that cannot practice new covenant Christianity. Nevertheless, God accepts those who must regulate their lives by outside discipline rather than by the Spirit's leading.
That is why the epistle says not to condemn one another's day of worship. I guess the thing I would "talk you down from" is this "mark of the beast" designation you have against your brethren and how it has drawn you away from the body unto some pretty unbiblical practices and beliefs.
skypair
We ought not be disagreeing on this issue. I respect the day you worship and why. It is "weak" Christianity that cannot practice new covenant Christianity. Nevertheless, God accepts those who must regulate their lives by outside discipline rather than by the Spirit's leading.
That is why the epistle says not to condemn one another's day of worship. I guess the thing I would "talk you down from" is this "mark of the beast" designation you have against your brethren and how it has drawn you away from the body unto some pretty unbiblical practices and beliefs.
skypair
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
TCGreek said:
1. Pre-cross we have Christ (not to be ignored) proclaiming that He "made the Sabbath for mankind" Mark 2:27
2. Post Cross we have The apostles in the temple on the Sabbath day of rest, worship and Bible study sharing the good news with the people of God BOTH Jews AND Gentiles Acts 13, Acts 17:1-3 - Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath services until the non-Christian JEWS try to stop it.
3. Post Cross the apostles strongly support the "Commandments of God" and Paul states "there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the "People of God"
4. Post Cross - and in the New Earth we see that the Sabbath is to be kept "by all mankind" Isaiah 66 -- "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship".
My acceptance of these post cross facts about the Sabbath scope and intent is clear - I think.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan said:
1. BobR, you're clearly desperate. The Gentiles as God-fearers were not Christians and in the company of the apostles and other believers.
2. Acts 15 doesn't mention what you want it to mention to make your case.
3. You need to come up with a better argument for this reference.
4. You need to do better than that.
5. You can do better than that. The Gentiles invited Paul back to hear the Gospel, but that doesn't prove they continued to meet on the Sabbath; in fact, they left.
6. I see you have made no attempt to comment on Acts 20:1-7.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
TCG - now it is you that is "reaching"
A. I stated that the worshipers of God among both the Jews and the Gentiles were known as "the people of God".
B. In 1Thess 4 we are referred to the people of God in all ages -- "The Dead in Christ rise first".
C. In Heb 11 that group is called the faithful - who find full "Acceptance with God" --
D. In Romans 4 Abraham is calld the Father of the faithful.
The point remains - these are true worshippers of God but more than that - they are in Sabbath after Sabbath worship services where Paul is leading out in Biblestudy. Beyond any doubt -- they are accepting the message of Paul. These are examples of overwhelming gentile evangelism done Sabbath after Sabbath and stopped only by the complaining non-Christian Jews.
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Bob said Quote:
2. Clearly we do see this reference admitted in Acts 15 when the subject of Gentiles comes up in the context of what they will be doing as Christians.
Acts 15 is speaking specifically to the state of Gentile Christians both at the start of the chapter, in middle and at the end.
So when we read that concerning them "Moses is preached every Sabbath" AND we SEE gentiles being preached to "Sabbath after Sabbath" in BOTH Acts 13 and Acts 17:1-3 - are you suggesting that we simply turn a blind eye ??
2. Clearly we do see this reference admitted in Acts 15 when the subject of Gentiles comes up in the context of what they will be doing as Christians.
Acts 15 is speaking specifically to the state of Gentile Christians both at the start of the chapter, in middle and at the end.
So when we read that concerning them "Moses is preached every Sabbath" AND we SEE gentiles being preached to "Sabbath after Sabbath" in BOTH Acts 13 and Acts 17:1-3 - are you suggesting that we simply turn a blind eye ??
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Hint: This is Bible proof that not ONLY is "The Sabbath" scope applicable to "ALL MANKIND" as the text says "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" but ALSO it is applicable POST Cross as the text identifies this with the time of the new heavens and new Earth.
For someone who needs to reject the fact that Sabbath is applicable to ALL mankind and that it is applicable after the cross -- Isaiah 66 is a problem.
Probably not the most compelling way to "solve the problem" TCG. But maybe it is all that is left in that case.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The fact that the "Gentiles invited Paul back" to hear more Gospel preaching is not a fact that serves your argument that Sabbath meetings were only for Jewish evangelism.
But the fact that the Gentiles are "doing the inviting" combined with the fact that GENTILES are inviting Paul to a SABBATH service - is devastating to your case TCG!
Your entire argument is that Paul's Sabbath services are there for Jews -- so the JEWS should be the "Sabbath after Sabbath" inviting group THEY are the ONLY ones for whom Sabbath has meaning in your view. They are the ones have control of the synagogue AND the only group that would consider the soonest opportunity to hear more of the Gospel to be "NEXT Sabbath" rather than week-day-one worship and Bible study service.
Hint: You have done nothing to solve that problem for your POV in your response above.
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I have given you "Sabbath after Sabbath" worship and Bible study servics and have shown that it is the GENTILES that are inviting Paul to SABBATH services to hear more Gospel preaching "instead" of simply asking for a week-day-1 service the following day.
You ignore all of that and instead focus on a "week-day-one" arrangement for "saving money".
Where is the term of honor for "week-day-1" as we see given to the 7th-day in Acts 13 and Acts 17 "The Sabbath"?? Not there. Certainly IF the apostles were introducing "Week-day-1" as are replacement for "The Seventh-day is the Sabbath of the Lord" -- they would have said "at least once" in these "week-day-1" references "week-day-1 the Lord's Day" -- yet this is not found in Acts 20 --- no not even in all of scripture.
Where is the "gospel preaching" mentioned in Acts 20 for "week-day-1" ? Not there.
Where is the "worship service" format/reference in the Act2 20 statement about "week-day-1"?? Not there?
And even worse in - Acts 20 the command is to "Each one... by himself" an individual act at the start of each week of laying aside funds inidivually in anticipation of contributing to a future offering so that no fund-raising needs to be done when Paul arrives.
in Christ,
Bob
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