Why the Sunday-keeping Church thinks of Sunday as the Sabbath

[TCGreek]

TCG - now it is you that is "reaching"

A. I stated that the worshipers of God among both the Jews and the Gentiles were known as "the people of God".

1. All God-fearers as in the case of Cornelius needed to hear the word of Salvation to be saved (Acts 11:14).

B. In 1Thess 4 we are referred to the people of God in all ages -- "The Dead in Christ rise first".

C. In Heb 11 that group is called the faithful - who find full "Acceptance with God"

2. Quite a leap, won't you say? I wonder what would happen if we were all to interprete Scripture that way.

The point remains - these are true worshippers of God but more than that - they are in Sabbath after Sabbath worship services where Paul is leading out in Biblestudy. Beyond any doubt -- they are accepting the message of Paul. These are examples of overwhelming gentile evangelism done Sabbath after Sabbath and stopped only by the complaining non-Christian Jews.

3. Why then did they believe the message of Paul, if they had it all together as the people of God? The data point in another direction, my friend.

 

[TCGreek]

Bob said Quote:
2. Clearly we do see this reference admitted in Acts 15 when the subject of Gentiles comes up in the context of what they will be doing as Christians.


Acts 15 is speaking specifically to the state of Gentile Christians both at the start of the chapter, in middle and at the end.

So when we read that concerning them "Moses is preached every Sabbath" AND we SEE gentiles being preached to "Sabbath after Sabbath" in BOTH Acts 13 and Acts 17:1-3 - are you suggesting that we simply turn a blind eye ??

The truth is, there's nothing about the Sabbath in Acts 15. Why would the apostles tell Gentiles to keep the Sabbath when they were not keeping it?

 

[TCGreek]

Quote:
3. It is clear from Mark 2:27 that Christ considered His Holy day to be "for mankind" and that Gentiles are humans.

Hint: Christ is to be "trusted"



Clearly we differ.

Our trusted Christ was under the Law and by the way, you not understanding Mark 2:27 the way it should be understood in light of the context. You're hitting and miss because of a theological grid you're bringing to the text.

 

[TCGreek]

The fact that the "Gentiles invited Paul back" to hear more Gospel preaching is not a fact that serves your argument that Sabbath meetings were only for Jewish evangelism.

But the fact that the Gentiles are "doing the inviting" combined with the fact that GENTILES are inviting Paul to a SABBATH service - is devastating to your case TCG!

Your entire argument is that Paul's Sabbath services are there for Jews -- so the JEWS should be the "Sabbath after Sabbath" inviting group THEY are the ONLY ones for whom Sabbath has meaning in your view. They are the ones have control of the synagogue AND the only group that would consider the soonest opportunity to hear more of the Gospel to be "NEXT Sabbath" rather than week-day-one worship and Bible study service.

Hint: You have done nothing to solve that problem for your POV in your response above.

in Christ,

Bob

Gentiles, as you pointed out, were God-fearers who needed to be saved like both Cornelius and Lydia. Besides, Sabbath gave them the best platform to hear the gospel together.

 

[TCGreek]

I have given you "Sabbath after Sabbath" worship and Bible study servics and have shown that it is the GENTILES that are inviting Paul to SABBATH services to hear more Gospel preaching "instead" of simply asking for a week-day-1 service the following day.

You ignore all of that and instead focus on a "week-day-one" arrangement for "saving money".

Where is the term of honor for "week-day-1" as we see given to the 7th-day in Acts 13 and Acts 17 "The Sabbath"?? Not there. Certainly IF the apostles were introducing "Week-day-1" as are replacement for "The Seventh-day is the Sabbath of the Lord" -- they would have said "at least once" in these "week-day-1" references "week-day-1 the Lord's Day" -- yet this is not found in Acts 20 --- no not even in all of scripture.

Where is the "gospel preaching" mentioned in Acts 20 for "week-day-1" ? Not there.

Where is the "worship service" format/reference in the Act2 20 statement about "week-day-1"?? Not there?

And even worse in - Acts 20 the command is to "Each one... by himself" an individual act at the start of each week of laying aside funds inidivually in anticipation of contributing to a future offering so that no fund-raising needs to be done when Paul arrives.

in Christ,

Bob

You can do better with the Acts 20:7.

 

[BobRyan]

TCG
Our trusted Christ was under the Law and by the way, you not understanding Mark 2:27 the way it should be understood in light of the context. You're hitting and miss because of a theological grid you're bringing to the text.

In Mark 2 Christ states the "Sabbath was MADE for mankind" you seem to be arguing that we should now ignore that.

In Mark 2 Christ's point relies on ACCEPTANCE of the fact that the "Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" -- to reject that part of Christ's statement is to obliterate the point He was trying to make with that undisputed fact.

In Matt 28 Christ instructs His followers to "teach ALL that I have commanded you" -- in response to that we see not only Gospel preaching we ASLO see the writting out of what Christ said while He was here -- and yet these are the very Words of Christ you say that post-Cross man should ignore???

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I happen to be in India at the moment so past my bedtime.

 

[BobRyan]

You can do better with the Acts 20:7.

Actually I am simply pointing to the inconvenient details in that chapter. My POV does not allow me to gloss over them as you have done with that sweeping verbal gesture -- put bluntly you can not shrug inconvenient details away -- it is not a compelling form of response.

 

[BobRyan]

Gentiles, as you pointed out, were God-fearers who needed to be saved like both Cornelius and Lydia. Besides, Sabbath gave them the best platform to hear the gospel together.

Why do Gentiles care to "hear the gospel together" the following Sabbath? Why wouldn't they be just as interested in a "week-day-1" service the very next day even though it be "not together with the Jews"??

The GENTILE invitation to Paul for subsequent Sabbath-day services is "instructive" for the careful reader.

 

[TCGreek]

In Mark 2 Christ states the "Sabbath was MADE for mankind" you seem to be arguing that we should now ignore that.

In Mark 2 Christ's point relies on ACCEPTANCE of the fact that the "Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" -- to reject that part of Christ's statement is to obliterate the point He was trying to make with that undisputed fact.

In Matt 28 Christ instructs His followers to "teach ALL that I have commanded you" -- in response to that we see not only Gospel preaching we ASLO see the writting out of what Christ said while He was here -- and yet these are the very Words of Christ you say that post-Cross man should ignore???

in Christ,

Bob

From what happened that Sabbath, Jesus pointed to the reason for the then Sabbath--the benefit of man, so the apostles were not in wrong in plucking the corn, but if you want to make a theology out of it, then it's at an avoidance of the true context of Mark 2:27.

 

[TCGreek]

Why do Gentiles care to "hear the gospel together" the following Sabbath? Why wouldn't they be just as interested in a "week-day-1" service the very next day even though it be "not together with the Jews"??

The GENTILE invitation to Paul for subsequent Sabbath-day services is "instructive" for the careful reader.

Were the Gentiles saved? It is clear from the first-century data that Judaism enjoyed the protection of the Pax Romana, while Christianity was known as a new group, the people of the Way.

 

[BobRyan]

The truth is, there's nothing about the Sabbath in Acts 15. Why would the apostles tell Gentiles to keep the Sabbath when they were not keeping it?

1. No reference to Sabbath at all -- but possibly a negative one as we see for animal sacrifices -- would be mentioned in Acts 15 if half of what you are arguing here were true.

2. By contrast we see this approving reference to the Sabbath

Here is the Sabbath reference connected directly to Gentiles -- that you say should not be found in Acts 15

19"Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,

20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21"For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

 

[TCGreek]

1. No reference to Sabbath at all -- but possibly a negative one as we see for animal sacrifices -- would be mentioned in Acts 15 if half of what you are arguing here were true.

2. By contrast we see this approving reference to the Sabbath

Here is the Sabbath reference connected directly to Gentiles -- that you say should not be found in Acts 15

19"Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,

20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21"For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

That's an allusion my brother and not a point of doctrine to be adhered to.

 

[BobRyan]

Were the Gentiles saved?

In Acts 13 and 17 they are identified as being among the people of God.

However you have not addressed the issue of 'their request" that additional Sabbath services be allowed for Gospel preaching.

 

[BobRyan]

That's an allusion my brother and not a point of doctrine to be adhered to.

James references "a point of fact" in Acts 15 that is apparently "without dispute" accepted by both sides in the debate -- James argues that this fact allows them to make their subsequent lenient statement about Gentiles not needing to become Jews.

Clearly this is an inconvenient detail for your POV

 

[BobRyan]

From what happened that Sabbath, Jesus pointed to the reason for the then Sabbath--the benefit of man, so the apostles were not in wrong in plucking the corn, but if you want to make a theology out of it, then it's at an avoidance of the true context of Mark 2:27.

Again "a point of fact" referenced by Christ to argue his point - a fact that your POV needs to deny because it is devastating to the "Sabbath NOT made for MANKIND but just made for JEWS" argument.

 

[TCGreek]

In Acts 13 and 17 they are identified as being among the people of God.

However you have not addressed the issue of 'their request" that additional Sabbath services be allowed for Gospel preaching.

1. Cornelius was considered a God-fearer, yet he and his need to hear words of salvation to be saved (Acts 10-11:18). Amazing, I say!

2. If I'm a part of a group and I know the best time of getting us all together to hear a special message, I would do everything to pass the word around to get everyone in my group to meet at an appointed time.

 

[BobRyan]

The Jews - including saints seen in Heb 11, and John the baptizer and Timothy whom Paul declares to have obtained salvation from his childhood via the Hebrew scriptures -- were all being called upon to accept the light of truth flowing from Christ --

But this did not mean that John or any other person worshipping and serving the one true God "was not saved".

Still they were being called to accept "the way of salvation" just as Christ urged this of His own followers while He was here on earth.

 

[TCGreek]

The Jews - including saints seen in Heb 11, and John the baptizer and Timothy whom Paul declares to have obtained salvation from his childhood via the Hebrew scriptures -- were all being called upon to accept the light of truth flowing from Christ --

But this did not mean that John or any other person worshipping and serving the one true God "was not saved".

Still they were being called to accept "the way of salvation" just as Christ urged this of His own followers while He was here on earth.

Paul points to the sacred Scriptures as leading to faith in Christ for salvation (2 Tim 3:15). Paul had to persuade the Jews and God-fearers of that fact from the OT (Acts 17:2).

 

[BobRyan]

No question that Paul and Christ were arguing the case from scripture that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah.

The key though is that those who did not see the name "Jesus" in the OT text were not "lost until they found it".

as 2Tim 3 state -- Timoth was saved BEFORE he became a Christian.

2Tim 3
15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

The Bible does NOT teach that all the people of God became lost when Christ died.

Heb 12
1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2For by it the men of old gained approval.
3By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
4By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

The "To the Jew first and also to the Greek" argument of Paul in Romans 2 explicitly argues against "jews lost at the cross just because they are Jews" RATHER it argues that Jews following God pre-cross are IN post cross on the SAME basis. Jews in rebellion pre-cross are LOST post-cross on the "same basis"

Gal 1:6-9 ONE Gospel in all of time.

Heb 4:1-2 WE have had the Gospel preached to us JUST as they also

in Christ,

Bob