WHY Universal Reconciliation is wrong ?

[Thinkingstuff]

His redemptive love is limited to the elect but His love is not limited to the elect. I think John McArthur gave an excellent illustration when he said the Scriptures use the same word "agape" for enemies as it does for non-enemies, friends, general family, children and spouse. However, you don't "love" your enemies in the same sense you love your friends. You don't love your friends in the same sense you love your family. You don't love your family in general as much as your love your specific family or children and you don't love your children as you love your spouse and you don't love your spouse in the same sense you love God. Just as one's love for God must be higher than their love for their spouse so there is different levels all the way down and yet all are love.

There is a benevolent love that God has for all mankind as he brings rain upon the good and evil alike and provides for the lowest of humans as he does for the animals. God has a creator love for the objects of his hands, animate as well as inanimate, human as well as non-human because they are all the works of his hands and are derived from Him and He loves His own things because they are a reflection of His own self.

However, He has a special covenant redemptive love for the elect above all others and that is reflected in his love for Israel above all other nations due to a COVENANT made with the "fathers" - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob which are all types of a greater covenant of redemption and a greater threefold personage. Abraham is called "THE FATHER" of us all and is a type of the Heavenly Father. Isaac is his "beloved son" and the only begotten of Abraham and is a type of God the Son the beloved and only begotten of the Father. Jacob is a type of the Holy Spirit through whom are BORN the children of Israel. God did not set his love upon all nations but only one through covenant promise and likewise God did not set his redemptive love upon all mankind without exception but upon the elect whom He:

hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; - Rev. 5:9

If you will take a look at Romans 9:24 you will see that everything Paul has said in the previous verses is applicabel to the elect among the Gentiles as well:

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I believe God has a special love for those who choose him. However, I don't think this negates his love for those who don't.

 

[RAdam]

I believe God has a special love for those who choose him. However, I don't think this negates his love for those who don't.

Does God love people in hell?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I never said world = elect in John 3:16. I said world is not a term that means universally without exception. God doesn't love every single person universally without exception. God hated Esau. God hates the workers of iniquity.

World is a term used in that context to convey that God's love and blessings were to extend beyond the Jewish nation. As God told Abraham, in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed. Paul says that God said this because one day He would justify the heathen (the Gentiles) through faith. And that is how terms like all and world are typically used in the scriptures, particularly in a Jewish context.

I don't think God hated Essau as much as didn't favor him. But the term alludes to more than not having favor but rejecting out right liniage. So it's a rejection due to lack of favor. I don't think this means God had emotional hate for Essau. Rather God blessed him even despite his rejection and gave to his decendents the land of Edom and made Essau himself a great man.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Does God love people in hell?

Unfortunately, for them I believe he loves those people as well. I believe thats part of their torment. Having lost that their rejection judged even worse for it. Shame and very sad.

 

[RAdam]

Unfortunately, for them I believe he loves those people as well. I believe thats part of their torment. Having lost that their rejection judged even worse for it. Shame and very sad.

So you believe God loves people in hell? That, my friend, is an abomination.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So you believe God loves people in hell? That, my friend, is an abomination.

To make God into your image in an abomination. To believe that he loves people even those who misuse him, abused him on the cross, ridiculed him while he was dying is scriptural. Even while dying on the Cross he said "Father forgive them for they no not what they do!" Surely, his love extended to these people which I'm certain many who witnessed his execution and tormented him did not become believers. To believe that Jesus loves all men is not an abomination but an expressed characteristic of who he is. God is not a man. Don't treat him like one.

BTW I think you mistake Gods love for Gods Justice. Though God does love all men God is also Just.

 

[DHK]

So you believe God loves people in hell? That, my friend, is an abomination.

How so? God is a God of love; not of hate. There is no absence of love in God. One must be able to reconcile God's holiness and justice with his love. Because he is a holy and just God does not diminish from his love. What would give you the idea that God is a God of hate?

 

[RAdam]

Paul stated that there was no chance of ever being separated from God's love. Ya'll are calling him a liar. You say that God will love someone and then allow them to be separated from Him for all eternity. That's an abomination. God's love is shown in the scriptures to be an everlasting love. It's also shown in the scriptures to be the moving force behind the plan of salvation. "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love, wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ."

 

[DHK]

Paul stated that there was no chance of ever being separated from God's love. Ya'll are calling him a liar. You say that God will love someone and then allow them to be separated from Him for all eternity. That's an abomination. God's love is shown in the scriptures to be an everlasting love. It's also shown in the scriptures to be the moving force behind the plan of salvation. "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love, wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ."

First, Paul was speaking to believers in Romans 8:38,39.
Be careful who you accuse of calling a liar. You have one finger pointing at me and four pointing back at yourself, which in this case I think is fairly accurate.

Look at the Scriptures.
In John 3:16, God so loved the world, not the elect.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
--not speaking of the elect here.

Consider the story of the rich young ruler who came to Jesus asking: "What must I do to have eternal life."
Jesus knew the outcome before he came.
And yet look at the answer he gave him.
Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
--He was going to end up in Hell; but Jesus loved him anyway.

On the cross
Luke 23:33-34 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
--They drove spikes through his hands and feet; crucified him, and parted his raiment. Jesus loved them anyway, even though he knew they would go to hell.

God is a God of love; not hate. There is not an ounce of hate in God. To say otherwise is bordering on heresy IMO. The very essence of God is love. It seems to me you have a warped view of God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

To make God into your image in an abomination. To believe that he loves people even those who misuse him, abused him on the cross, ridiculed him while he was dying is scriptural. Even while dying on the Cross he said "Father forgive them for they no not what they do!" Surely, his love extended to these people which I'm certain many who witnessed his execution and tormented him did not become believers. To believe that Jesus loves all men is not an abomination but an expressed characteristic of who he is. God is not a man. Don't treat him like one.

BTW I think you mistake Gods love for Gods Justice. Though God does love all men God is also Just.

Is God capable of hating anyone or anything?

Pr 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Ho 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Rom. 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Note carefully that in none of these texts is it the "sin" that is the object of God's hated but persons.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I believe God has a special love for those who choose him. However, I don't think this negates his love for those who don't.

I believe those who choose him were first chosen by Him and their choice of Him is the manifestation of His love for them.

I don't deny that God loves those he does not choose but I do deny He loves them redemptively. Remember that outside of Christ it is not the "love" of God that is directed toward them but "the WRATH of God abideth on them" - Jn. 3:36. The love of God is found only "in Christ" (Rom. 8:28-39). Those in hell are outside of Christ and they are not under the love of God but the Wrath of God is being poured out upon them.

 

[Dr. Walter]

There is no redemptive love of God OUTSIDE of Christ. The only thing OUTSIDE of Christ is the wrath of God. The redemptive love of God is found only "in Christ."

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Is God capable of hating anyone or anything?

Pr 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Ho 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Rom. 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Note carefully that in none of these texts is it the "sin" that is the object of God's hated but persons.

Of course there are things God hates like sin. He loathes the attitudes of arrogance and pride. Sin and the type of sin is often personified by the people practicing them. Are you suggesting that if Esau really repented and sought God that God would not forgive him or even love him? I think we often apply human sensibilities to God. I personally hate a lot of people and can't see their humanity apart from their sin. I believe the writers of the bible apply these types of human speach about God. However, that is Anthropormorphism. God is not a man and is not limited like us. He is Love, he is justice. I actually went around my church today and asked everyone the same Question RAdam asked. And the consensus was that God loves even the people in hell. I think placing God in the position of man and acting like man is irresponsible. God loves all men. But his justice will judge them. Also in your view God is schicophrenic because he's hating a lot of people but asking us to love them. He would also be very petty. However these are the things God says.

But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them.

So, if this is what he expects of us how much more so himself.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There is no redemptive love of God OUTSIDE of Christ. The only thing OUTSIDE of Christ is the wrath of God. The redemptive love of God is found only "in Christ."

You're spliting hairs now. The question was if God loves those who went to hell. Redemptive was not a part of that. I believe John 3:16 in its universality. God loves the Kosmos of people. Look I love my son. If he becomes a murderer. I will still love him. I'll ensure he becomes judged for it and that he'll pay the price for it. I will be sad and grieve. I will still love him but justice will take place. That is me. Now God is greater than I and his love is perfect so how much more so he?

After asking people at church who universally disagreed with RAadam and a few friends in seminary also disagreed and seemed horrified at the consept that God does not universally loves people. I think you guys on here are in the minority.

 

[DHK]

Is God capable of hating anyone or anything?

Pr 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

six things God hates sin. The person is not mentioned.

Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

It is not wise to use the imprecatory psalms as your defense, as they are prayers of judgment.

Ho 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Even the emphasis here is on the wickedness not the person.
He is speaking of judgment here if you read the context. The word "hate" in the OT often refers to judgment. Look back one verse:

Hosea 9:14 Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
--It is judgment that he is speaking of, not hatred.

Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

This is a figure of speech set in contrast to the nation of Israel. It is comparing their attitude to the Lord's attitude to them. It is figurative in that it is a comparison, almost rhetorical. But we know that God doesn't hate or "Lothe."

Youngs Literal Translation puts it this way:
Zechariah 11:8 And I cut off the three shepherds in one month, and my soul is grieved with them, and also their soul hath abhorred me.
--The Lord was grieved with them. Far more accurate, don't you think?

Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Rom. 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This is an age old question. How can God hate Esau? He doesn't. The comparison between Esau and Jacob was comparative. The word is better translated "loved less." He didn't hate, couldn't hate him. God doesn't hate. God is a God of love.

Note carefully that in none of these texts is it the "sin" that is the object of God's hated but persons.

You didn't read them carefully enough.

 

[Alive in Christ]

I recently bumped into a website, with a discussion forum like this one, that, sadly, promotes the idea of universal salvation.

That idea is utterly absurd and ridiculous in light of Gods scriptures.


I have no idea how they could come to such a conclusion.

 

[annsni]

I recently bumped into a website, with a discussion forum like this one, that, sadly, promotes the idea of universal salvation.

That idea is utterly absurd and ridiculous in light of Gods scriptures.


I have no idea how they could come to such a conclusion.

Unfortunately, there are so many false teachings out there. It's so sad when God's Word is so clear but apparently there's something blocking these people's eyes to the truth.

 

[Dr. Walter]

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. - Rom.9:13


For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
- Rom. 9:17-18

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. - Jude 4

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; - 2 Pet. 2:12

Rome. 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[billwald]

The big problem

is that if we judge God by his results and 75% or more of his output is rejects then what do we conclude? That he is incompetent or that God's main purpose was to produce people for Hell?

We don't judge humans that way because humans are imperfect beings and we should not expect perfect results. If God is perfect we should expect perfect results, especially if God invented the game he is playing and God made up all the rules. There was no game and no rules before God, right?

If Salvation is based on a one question quiz (do you believe or do you not believe) and humans are imperfect then statistically and logically even if every human wanted to pass the quiz some would get it wrong just because they were not perfect.

Second, because humans are imperfect then it is not logical that humans could perfectly understand the question and the choices. It would be as if I was given a timed test and half the words were in German, Russian, French, and Urdu. I could be the smartest person in the world but would still flunk the test.

The only honest way for God to give the test would be for every person to have the situation explained in a way that he perfectly understood it. If a person was sufficiently evil then he would still reject Heaven because for him, it would be Hell.

Or God could generate a random number and use it to assign a destination for every person. If God wanted a 25% passing rate he would assign every person the next two consecutive numbers when he was born or died. Two odd numbers would win him Heaven and the other combinations would fail the test.

And don't reply "God's ways . . . " because then no one knows anything about the subject.

Or look at this way . . . If God was an evil person and had a sense of humor, how would he design a universe for the purpose of maximizing evil? How would it differ from our world?

 

[DHK]

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. - Jude 4

When we take a verse like this, we must look at in somewhat the same light that we look at the "elect" or the saved.

First, I realize that you may be a Calvinist. I am not. Nor do I believe that God ordained some to heaven and some to hell. I do believe that all men have a free will.

God sent Christ to die for the sins of ALL men, not just the "elect." In order to be saved man, of his own free will, must choose to trust Christ. God has given him that choice. Those that are unsaved have chosen of their own free will to reject Christ. Since we are made in the image of God we have this free will that God gave us.
The fact that these false teachers mentioned in Jude 4 were "ordained to condemnation," is simply that God knew the choice that they were going to make. They still had the free will to make the choice. God didn't force their hand. He knew they would make that choice.
Whether saved or unsaved God knew the choices people would make before the foundation of the world. But he never took away the choice.

He knew these teachers would choose to teach error. Therefore they were "ordained" to condemnation. They chose it, and God knew it.