WHY Universal Reconciliation is wrong ?

[Dr. Walter]

Is it love or is it hatred. Jesus said: "Love your enemies."
This is an expression of the judgment of God upon the enemies of God.
It is one of the Imprecatory Psalms. One cannot literally discern God's character from a psalm like this. Are you willing to pray it?

No human being has the omniscience to judge any other human being - that is for God, condemnation and wrath - vengeance belongeth to God alone. We are to love our enemies but we don't love them in the same sense we love our friends, our family, our children, our spouse and most of all our God.

Likewise with God's love. God has a benevolent love for all mankind in general, even His enemies as "the goodness of God" should lead them to repentance, as every good gift comes down from above of which they benefit. He gives the wicked the rain, sunshine, takes care of their needs and uses them to bless His elect. God's redemptive love is for his elect.

However, at the same time He brings judgements upon them for their sins even now (Rom. 1:24,26,28) as the "wrath of God abideth on them" even now (Jn. 3:36) as there is NO REDEMPTIVE LOVE OUTSIDE OF CHRIST - only "in Christ" is the love of God found, experienced and applied. Only the elect were "in Christ" by redemptive purpose before the world began. Only the elect were "in Christ" in his federal representative capacity (Rom. 5). Only the elect are "in Christ" by creation/regeneration (Eph. 2:10) and only the elect are "in Christ" in regard to justification or legal position by faith. Outside of Christ there is no redemption, no love but only wrath NOW (Jn. 3:36) and forever (Rev. 14:10-11).

It is God's choice that left some to the dictates of their own free choice to resist and reject the gospel while it is God's choice to elect others unto redemption (Acts 13:48; 2 Thess. 2:13):

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: - 2 Thes. 2:13

My friend, your position is FORCED to reverse the word "to" to mean "BECAUSE OF" simply due to the fact that "beleif of the truth" is grammatically regarded a CONSEQUENCE of being chosen before the foundation of the world instead of the CAUSE. You are forced to REVERSE cause and effects and thus deny the very thing Paul is saying is the cause.

Going to 1 Pet. 1:2 will not help you because foreknowledge is also placed as the CONSEQUENCE not as the cause of God's purpose of redemption in Romans 8:28-29.

You have the same problem with Acts 13:48 where again you are forced to REVERSE the stated cause (ordained unto) with the effect (believed).

The same is true with Ephesians 1:4 where again you are forced to REVERSE the stated cause (chosen) with the effect (that we should be).

 

[DHK]

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
The absence of love is hate.
God is not a God of hate, nor has the ability to hate.
According to this verse, If God did not love, then God would not be God.
God cannot hate. It is against his nature.

 

[Dr. Walter]

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
The absence of love is hate.
God is not a God of hate, nor has the ability to hate.
According to this verse, If God did not love, then God would not be God.
God cannot hate. It is against his nature.

Love cannot exist apart from hatred as love has no defintion apart from hatred. The Justice of God includes wrath against sinners not merely against sin. Wrath is not love - CHASTENING is love but WRATH is not love.

You are using the same argument that the person uses that argues against the existence of hell - God is a God of love and it is against his nature to intentionally inflict eternal pain and punishment upon his creatres and therefore a God of love could not send any being to hell???????????

The same flaw in the above argument is the same flaw in your argument. There is no conflict between God's hate and God's love. His hatred is a matter of Justice toward SINNERS not merely sin and the ETERNAL WRATH of God will prove He can hate Satan, Demons and Satan's children.

 

[RAdam]

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
The absence of love is hate.
God is not a God of hate, nor has the ability to hate.
According to this verse, If God did not love, then God would not be God.
God cannot hate. It is against his nature.

If God cannot hate, the bible is wrong, because it clearly says He hates some people and some actions.

It might offend you to find out that little piece of information, but that's what the bible says. God not only has the ability to hate, He does hate. God hates sin. God hates the wicked.

God is a God of love. God also hates.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Love cannot exist apart from hatred as love has no defintion apart from hatred. The Justice of God includes wrath against sinners not merely against sin. Wrath is not love - CHASTENING is love but WRATH is not love.

Wrath is wrath and is a requirement of Justice. God can be angry at someone and love them at the same time. One does not negate the other like matter and anti-matter.

You are using the same argument that the person uses that argues against the existence of hell - God is a God of love and it is against his nature to intentionally inflict eternal pain and punishment upon his creatres and therefore a God of love could not send any being to hell???????????

People who use that argument even as you have used the argument apply a quality to love which isn't an exclusive aspect to love. What you are describing are irrational feelings based on hormonal flow. For God love includes wisdom and Judgement. If God is a God of true love hell must exist. Therefore this arguement is rather shallow.

The same flaw in the above argument is the same flaw in your argument.

I entirely disagree again you missaply love. Like in my example if I had a son who murders I will love him even if he deserves the death penalty. I don't love him less because I support the penalty he deserves. I don't hate him either. In a similar vein God's love is not limited to soft feelings that are homonally triggered. Love is a deep wisdom and greater than feelings. The very reason that God is love requires that there be a hell. Our language is limited we keep adding adjectives to love like tough love. But note its still love eventhough there is an aspect of discipline or dolling out of consequences. I think you do not understand love.

There is no conflict between God's hate and God's love.

Agreed as long as we understand what we are talking about. God is not petty like man.

His hatred is a matter of Justice toward SINNERS not merely sin and the ETERNAL WRATH of God will prove He can hate Satan, Demons and Satan's children.

You've unnecissarily combined two aspects. God's justice and love requires wrath and judgment. Yet, Anger and judgment can be directed at a person without lessining of Love for that same person. Again God is not petty. Man is.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If God cannot hate, the bible is wrong, because it clearly says He hates some people and some actions.

It might offend you to find out that little piece of information, but that's what the bible says. God not only has the ability to hate, He does hate. God hates sin. God hates the wicked.

God is a God of love. God also hates.

I am sorry to say that your view of God is similar in view to the ancient's view of Zeus. God can love and hate ( he hates choices, actions, motivations, etc... He can be angered at people but it doesnt lessen his love for those not elect) yet still love the sinners who's rejected his salvation.

 

[RAdam]

He hates the wicked, Psalm 11 says. He hates them. Not only their actions, but them.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

He hates the wicked, Psalm 11 says. He hates them. Not only their actions, but them.

Remember the bible is writen with Anthropomorphisms. Attaching a human quality to God. Yes God hates the wicked but he also loves them. Just as I can hate my son for being a murder but never stop loving him because he's my son. Humans can't reconsile the two. God is greater than man.

 

[RAdam]

Remember the bible is writen with Anthropomorphisms. Attaching a human quality to God. Yes God hates the wicked but he also loves them. Just as I can hate my son for being a murder but never stop loving him because he's my son. Humans can't reconsile the two. God is greater than man.

I'm trying to think of any text in the bible that tells me God loves the wicked.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I'm trying to think of any text in the bible that tells me God loves the wicked.

Let me help out

Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

2nd peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." God is “not willing that any should perish.”

Ezekiel 33:11, "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel.

 

[RAdam]

Those verses don't tell me God loves the wicked.

Romans 5:8 tells me God loves His people even when they were dead in sins, but doesn't tell me God loves those that are not His people that will die in their sins.

2 Peter 3:9 doesn't tell me anything about the wicked. It tells me about the people God isn't willing to see perish, which Jesus said are the ones that the Father gave Him, and that He came down from heaven so that they wouldn't perish. Peter tells me that Jesus isn't coming back until they have repented. Doesn't say anything about God loving the wicked.

Ezekiel is not telling me that God loves the wicked. In fact, that whole section is a warning to Israel to repent.

I've got a verse here in Psalms 11 that tells me that God hates the wicked. You say He loves them at the same time He hates them. Really, that's kind of silly, but anyway I just want a verse that says He loves them. You haven't found me one yet.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Those verses don't tell me God loves the wicked.

Romans 5:8 tells me God loves His people even when they were dead in sins, but doesn't tell me God loves those that are not His people that will die in their sins.

2 Peter 3:9 doesn't tell me anything about the wicked. It tells me about the people God isn't willing to see perish, which Jesus said are the ones that the Father gave Him, and that He came down from heaven so that they wouldn't perish. Peter tells me that Jesus isn't coming back until they have repented. Doesn't say anything about God loving the wicked.

Ezekiel is not telling me that God loves the wicked. In fact, that whole section is a warning to Israel to repent.

I've got a verse here in Psalms 11 that tells me that God hates the wicked. You say He loves them at the same time He hates them. Really, that's kind of silly, but anyway I just want a verse that says He loves them. You haven't found me one yet.

Let me put it succinctly for you. There is nothing special about you. And yet While you were an enemy of God living in sin. Surrounded by hate, violence, and you defiled yourself and defiled others. At the peak of you emnity with God He loved you and died for you so that you could even conceive of repenting and holding to a faith. Yet God loved you and saved you. It clearly shows that if all men avail themselves of the love of God they will be saved. I think you err with the hyper calvinist.

 

[RAdam]

Let me put it succinctly for you. There is nothing special about you. And yet While you were an enemy of God living in sin. Surrounded by hate, violence, and you defiled yourself and defiled others. At the peak of you emnity with God He loved you and died for you so that you could even conceive of repenting and holding to a faith. Yet God loved you and saved you. It clearly shows that if all men avail themselves of the love of God they will be saved. I think you err with the hyper calvinist.

So there is nothing special about me, but thankfully I had the sense enough to avail myself of the love of God. If I had not, I would have burned in hell for all eternity. Wow, and I thought I should be praising Jesus Christ for saving me, when in reality, if you are right, I should be thanking myself. After all, if I hadn't availed myself of God's love then I would've perished. Thanks for clearing that up.

Clearly, your idea of salvation is not in line with the bible. Yes, there is nothing special about me. I've often wondered why God would love such a worthless sinner as I. I was a worthless, dead sinner, who hated God and deserved eternal punishment. Praise God for His great love wherewith He loved me even when I was dead in sins and sent His Son into the world to die for me. Praise God for sending His Spirit to regenerate me. I didn't avail myself of the love of God, God came in and sovereignly changed my heart, taught me to deny ungodliness and wordly lusts and instead love Him and keep His commandments. Praise God for sending me the gospel which brought life and immortality to light, opening my eyes to what things God has done for me.

You can call me a hyper-calvinist if you want to, but I never claimed to be a calvinist. I claim to simply believe what the bible teaches.

 

[DHK]

Love cannot exist apart from hatred as love has no defintion apart from hatred. The Justice of God includes wrath against sinners not merely against sin. Wrath is not love - CHASTENING is love but WRATH is not love.

You are using the same argument that the person uses that argues against the existence of hell - God is a God of love and it is against his nature to intentionally inflict eternal pain and punishment upon his creatres and therefore a God of love could not send any being to hell???????????

The same flaw in the above argument is the same flaw in your argument. There is no conflict between God's hate and God's love. His hatred is a matter of Justice toward SINNERS not merely sin and the ETERNAL WRATH of God will prove He can hate Satan, Demons and Satan's children.

The flaw is in your argument and in your logic.
The Bible states: God is light and in him is no darkness at all.
According to your logic there must be darkness in God and there must be sin in God. You are showing yourself to be a dualist. God is not a dualist.

God is holy. He sets himself apart from sin, apart from darkness, and apart from hatred. In him is no sin, no darkness and no hatred.
He is light. He is holy. And he is love. Those qualities don't simply describe Him. They make up his very essence.

 

[DHK]

He hates the wicked, Psalm 11 says. He hates them. Not only their actions, but them.

Again, you guys are stuck on the Imprecatory Psalms to try and prove your point, and how miserably you fail.

Jesus summed up all the law in two commandments. What were they?

Matthew 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it,
39 Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

All is summed up in one word "Love"

Paul did the same thing in 1Cor.13.
Greater than all the spiritual gifts put together was "love," and then he proceeds to write an entire chapter on it. "

John states it plainly.
"God is love."

If you show hatred you are not saved.
1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Is God a murderer?
Is this what you accuse God of?
Does God go against his own word?

 

[RAdam]

Are the wicked God's brothers?

 

[DHK]

Are the wicked God's brothers?

The "wicked" are part of God's creation, and as such are called His "offspring."

 

[Dr. Walter]

The flaw is in your argument and in your logic.
The Bible states: God is light and in him is no darkness at all.
According to your logic there must be darkness in God and there must be sin in God. You are showing yourself to be a dualist. God is not a dualist.

God is holy. He sets himself apart from sin, apart from darkness, and apart from hatred. In him is no sin, no darkness and no hatred.
He is light. He is holy. And he is love. Those qualities don't simply describe Him. They make up his very essence.

You are now confusing oranges and apples. The metaphor of light has to do with righteousness and of course the opposite is unrighteousness. However, hate is not something immoral as it is approved both in man and in God toward the proper objects. For example, God can HATE sin as well as the epitomy of sin - Satan and the wicked.

However, according to your analogy it would be sin for God to hate anything at all, even to hate period.

 

[DHK]

You are now confusing oranges and apples. The metaphor of light has to do with righteousness and of course the opposite is unrighteousness. However, hate is not something immoral as it is approved both in man and in God toward the proper objects. For example, God can HATE sin as well as the epitomy of sin - Satan and the wicked.

However, according to your analogy it would be sin for God to hate anything at all, even to hate period.

I am not confused, but I believe you are. What you fail to see is that when speaking of the justice and holiness of God, God often uses anthropormorphic words to help us understand his character. God doesn't hate. It is against his character. He cannot hate. God is love. His essence is love. He is a God of love. It is impossible for him to hate.

To use your logic:
God is a murderer.
God has committed genocide.
God has committed mass murder.
God has committed abortion.
God is an arsonist.
God afflicts the whole with disease (a sadist).

And God does much more evil than this. He is a cruel, vindictive, sadistic, hate-filled God in your eyes.
But this isn't true. He is a God of love. And many of the actions that he has taken in the above list were taken in the light of his justice. Instead of accusing him of cruelty, which you are doing, thank him that he is holy and just.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Anthropormorphic words are worthless if they do not convey some kind of reality found in God. The "arm" of the Lord conveys the idea of "power" just as the "eyes" of the Lord convey awareness. However, these are PHYSICAL attributes where as "anger" "wrath" "hate" are not PHYSICAL attributes but they are MORAL attributes being conveyed.

Again your "To use your logic" is inappropriate and again is a mixture of apples and oranges. Never is "murderer" or "abortion" or "genocide" or etc. EVER applied to God as anthropormorphic words.

Furthermore, your analogy is inappropriate as it depends not only upon YOUR INTEPRETATION of actions to fit those terms but such an interpretation also depends upon something you do not believe and that is God is responsible for sin as all those terms describe SINS.

You cannot deny that such MORAL terms as "hate" and "anger" and "wrath" are directly attributed in Scripture to God's NATURE as well as His ACTIONS toward SIN and SINNERS because we have documented that fact.

You cannot attribute them as anthropormorphisms because they are not PHYSICAL but MORAL attributes and if nothing conveyed has any realistic basis in the MORAL nature of God then it is a vain argument to even suggest they are anthropormorphic expressions.

You simply do not understand justified "anger" that would take the form of "vengeance" toward people that results in ETERNAL AGONY and MISERY. That is WRATH, and wrath cannot be separated from HATRED. This is very simple to prove by asking you a simple question - "Can God HATE sin?" If you say no, you are in direct contradiction with scriptures. If you admit it, then how is that HATRED manifested in terms of judgement and consequences? If you say it is not directed toward PEOPLE in PERSONAL MISERY as ETERNAL WRATH, then you are in direct contradiction with scriptures.

The only way you can separate God's hate of sin from sinners is to PAY for the sin and REDEEM the sinners - Period! Thus justified HATRED is not incompatible with LOVE as justified hatred has for its only objects unredeemable and unpaid sin and sinners whereas love has for its object only that which is GOOD and RIGHT and HOLY either because it is intrinsic by nature or redeemed by eternal purpose and then in time and space. That is why the Bible says that God loved the elect with an EVERLASTING LOVE.

I am not confused, but I believe you are. What you fail to see is that when speaking of the justice and holiness of God, God often uses anthropormorphic words to help us understand his character. God doesn't hate. It is against his character. He cannot hate. God is love. His essence is love. He is a God of love. It is impossible for him to hate.

To use your logic:
God is a murderer.
God has committed genocide.
God has committed mass murder.
God has committed abortion.
God is an arsonist.
God afflicts the whole with disease (a sadist).

And God does much more evil than this. He is a cruel, vindictive, sadistic, hate-filled God in your eyes.
But this isn't true. He is a God of love. And many of the actions that he has taken in the above list were taken in the light of his justice. Instead of accusing him of cruelty, which you are doing, thank him that he is holy and just.