Why we must be born again !

[savedbymercy]

Brother SavedbyMercy,

I am Primitive Baptist. Our views on the atonement seem to be similar (i.e. the elect actually being saved through the atonement and not through believing the gospel). Are you Primitive Baptist too?

Hey, no disrespect but I am here to discuss the scriptures and not me! I am glad that we agree on that issue!

 

[Van]

Brother Van,

Laying aside Romans 5:19, there are so many others verses of scripture that teach so much was actually, not potentially, accomplished by the atonement that it must only be applicable to the elect, otherwise there would be nobody in Hell. Consider all the following verses/thoughts-

Scripture teaches us the atonement was more than just a pardon, but in fact a substitutionary atonement, thus it must be limited. Peter declares, "24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed". If our sins were already "bore" and we our "healed" by his stripes, God cannot than make someone "bore" their own sins again and "unheal" them.

In trying to discuss what was accomplished by Christ's death on the cross. it may be better to address each verse, rather than a whole boatload of assertions.

Here is how the NASB renders 1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

Now our first question is who is being addressed, i.e. to whom does "our," "we," and "you" refer? Saved or unsaved, born anew or unregenerate? So since born anew believers are in view, the fact we have been healed by the sacrifice of Jesus does not suggest it was accomplished when He died. We underwent the circumcision of Christ when God put us spiritually in Christ after crediting our faith as righteousness.

The second issue is how did Christ bear "our" sins in His body? Did He die as a ransom for all, and thus His sacrifice paid the ransom for all the sin of the world? Yes.

Think of Christ as an eternal fountain of living water, whoever is placed in Christ is washed and made alive. Yes, I know it is a different way of looking at what was accomplished, but it is consistent with all scripture.

 

[savedbymercy]

van

In trying to discuss what was accomplished by Christ's death on the cross. it may be better to address each verse, rather than a whole boatload of assertions.

Well you deny that His Death alone, the Obedience of One, made those He died for Righteous as it says in Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Van]

No one denies that by the obedience of the One, the many will be made righteous. This issue is when are they made righteous. When Christ died, or when God places the person spiritually in Christ where they undergo the circumcision of Christ. Scripture is clear.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

In trying to discuss what was accomplished by Christ's death on the cross. it may be better to address each verse, rather than a whole boatload of assertions.

Here is how the NASB renders 1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

Now our first question is who is being addressed, i.e. to whom does "our," "we," and "you" refer? Saved or unsaved, born anew or unregenerate? So since born anew believers are in view, the fact we have been healed by the sacrifice of Jesus does not suggest it was accomplished when He died. We underwent the circumcision of Christ when God put us spiritually in Christ after crediting our faith as righteousness.
all scripture

Brother Van,

The verse says "by his stripes you were healed", it does not say "by faith" in his stripes you were healed. The cause of being healed is clearly indicated with the word "by" being used which is followed by the cause which is "his stripes".

Now as you suggested, let us look at each verse I posted one at a time. The next verse I posted, "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14)

How were His children "perfected" according to this verse? (Hint-It follows the word "by" in the verse and according to the dictionary the word by means "through").

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Did He die as a ransom for all, and thus His sacrifice paid the ransom for all the sin of the world? Yes.

Brother Van,

The Bible does not say as you claim the Christ was a ransom for "all", but "many". "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28). Many by definition does not mean all. Can you show me a verse in scripture where many means all men who ever lived? If not, and "many" always means less than all men who ever lived in other scriptures, why would you interpret "many" in this paticular scripture to mean all men who ever lived?

Also, if the ransom was paid for every human being, but some do not end up going to Heaven, doesn't this mean God is collecting the ransom twice, once on Christ, and the 2nd time on the sinner being damned to Hell? What is the sinner going to hell for if the ransom for sin was paid?

 

[Van]

Hi Brother Joseph, my point was that if you are addressing born anew believers, they have, past tense, been healed. Therefore this verse does not say or suggest they were healed before God placed them spiritually in Christ. So you verse does not support your premise.

The Bible does not say as you claim the Christ was a ransom for "all", but "many".

Matthew 20:28 = many
Mark 10:45 = many
1 Timothy 2:6 = all

Lets finish with our discussion of 1 Peter 2:24, before I once again address the oft refuted "double payment" chestnut of limited atonement.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning

Some time after 11:00 pm (Pacific Time) I will close this thread.

 

[Van]

I see, Brother Joseph, that our discussion is going to be curtailed.

Here is part of the boatload of assertions that we will not be able to discuss:

Finally, the atonement could not apply to all men because of what scripture tells us it actually accomplished (not potentially accomplished). The Bible has many passages of scripture that makes this undeniably clear-
"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14)
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life" (Romans 5:10)
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9)
"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" (Galatians 3:13)
"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" (Ephesians 1:7)
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Hebrews 10:10)

Hebrews 10:14 refers to those who have been placed in Christ, i.e. set apart or sanctified. Thus does not support your premise.

Romans 5:10 does not say "when" we were reconciled. But we were reconciled, i.e. received the reconciliation, when God placed us spiritually in Christ, and we underwent the circumcision of Christ.

Romans 5:9 does not say "when" we were justified. But we were justified when God placed us spiritually in Christ and we underwent the circumcision of Christ.

Galatians 3:13 does not say "when" we were redeemed.

Ephesians 1:7 actually supports my view, for only "In Him" do we have redemption.

Hebrews 10:10 does not say "when" we were sanctified. But when we were set apart (sanctified) in Christ, we were washed with His blood.


Think of the cross as a two step program. When He died, He paid the ransom for all, thus enabling the salvation of anyone God chooses to place spiritually in Christ. Only those placed in Christ, have their body of flesh (sin burden) removed. Not to sound too Calvinistic, but the ransom was sufficient for all, but only those chosen by God and placed spiritually in Christ, receive the reconciliation provided by His death. Those who have not "received the reconciliation" still have their "sin burden" which will be paid in full in Hades and Gehenna.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed. However, any outstanding issues can be and are encouraged to be discussed in new thread.