Why Would a Pastor Condone Freemasonry

[O.F.F.]

THE WORM,

Why do you contradict yourself, even in the same breathe?

You keep drawing this false picture of a lodge full of mostly "Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Pantheist, or even Pagan religions"--so I put forth the challenge now, can you find one single lodge in this country where that is so? I dare say you will be hard pressed to find a single professing "Zoroastrian" in any lodge. And don't come back with a triumphant "AHA!" even if you find one, because that would be such a far cry from the nature of U.S. Grand Lodges as to be farcical. You were a lodge member yourself once, I assume you know better, and therefore are guilty of intentional and persistent misrepresentation on this point. We are discussing, after all, from a basic viewpoint of U.S. lodges, since every time it comes down to specifics, those specifics involve various U.S. lodges. We have had quotes from KY lodge, from Nevada, from TN, from SC, from FLA, etc. etc. Given the overwhelming majority that Christianity has held since this country's beginnings, by Masonic definition there is not a Grand Lodge in this country that would not be considered a "Christian" lodge, with the Holy Bible as its VSL, and any other VSL requested would be placed on the altar only by individual request, and even then in addition, not in place of, the Holy Bible.

Since Freemasonry is UNIVERSAL, how do you get off on trying to create a U.S. VACUUM of the fraternity, as if no other Masonic jurisdiction on the planet matters? Yet, here is another example of your continuous self-defeating contradictions:

Please note the following link:

The Myth of the Christian Lodge

Yet another reframe of yours. Masons do not unite to religions, they unite to other Masons--and that fraternally, not religiously.

Again, what about the OTHER MASONS outside of the U.S.? Are they NOT united to them, to include those of OTHER RELIGIONS? For that matter, finding a statement that may give a Christian veneer at best, doesn’t refute the preponderance of Masonic sources that say otherwise:

Bottom line is, a challenge was offered that a ritual could not be found with "Jehovah" in it, one was produced, which should thus refute the argument, except that now you try to spin it after the fact rather than concede the least point.

Stretching to find one or even a few quotes that might appear to be biblical, doesn't refute what most Grand Lodges say about Freemasonry. Therefore, there is no conceding necessary when the vast majority of evidence presented shows that Freemasonry is ungodly, unbiblical, and anti-Christian at best. It certainly does not honor the God of the bible even if it uses biblical terms, especially when they are applied erroneously.

Since the Holy Bible is the VSL of (as far as I know) any lodge you will find in the U.S., and since it is the source of the name "Jehovah," I'm afraid the burden of proof is still on you to prove otherwise, which so far you have not. The "Muslim, Buddhist, Pantheist, Pagan, and many others" that you continue to repeat is, as I've already shown, a false construction when used of U.S. lodges in general, and the TN lodge in particular, since that one is where this began.

We are NOT talking about Freemasonry in the U.S. in general; we are discussing the Masonic Order in general no matter where it exists. As former Masons, who have practiced and know the Ancient Landmarks of the Masonic Order, which one clearly states that the VSL is that Volume by the RELIGION OF THE MASON (wherever he may live and whatever religion that may be) CONTAINS THE REVEALED WILL OF GOD, suggests that the burden of proof that this [VSL] is ONLY the HOLY BIBLE rest with Freemasonry.

Since by Masonic standards, you, Jacob or the Grand Lodge of Tennessee cannot speak for ALL of Masonry, that proof remains to be seen, and therefore cannot be presented on behalf of the entire fraternity. Besides, there has NOT even been conclusive evidence that what even comes from Jacob is from the ritual of the Grand Lodge of Tennessee, as he has NOT been clear as to precisely where the discussed quote comes from:

As to Marcia's? My sources is the Masonic Text Book of Tennessee, The Tennessee Craftsmen and the Gary Leazer's book Funimentlism and Freemasonry and others.

It would be a bit more clear if he said it came from one or the other, but it doesn't matter, because the Masonic "rule of thumb" is, no one person or body speaks for the entire fraternity, whether it’s The Worm, Jacob, Gary Leazer or the Grand Lodge of Tennessee.

So, it appears you, Jacob and the entire defense team of the Masonic Order are trapped in Freemasonry's own "catch-22" that often blows up in its face.

Mike

[ June 02, 2004, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: O.F.F. ]

 

[O.F.F.]

The Worm said:

The [Temple] story in the ritual is completely symbolic and allegorical, making what it "is" irrelevant. The key is what it teaches. [emphasis added]

That makes as much sense as saying, "the screen name 'The Worm' is symbolic and allegorical, making the who he or she "is" irrelevant. The key is what he or she teaches."

The only thing a false story can teach is a bold-faced LIE, period. And, this is precisely what the Masonic Legend of the Temple builders tells members of the Masonic Lodge.

Mike

 

[W.D.Rice]

I told you it is from the black Masonic Text Book 4th Edition.

Then the claim that Jehovah is presented in Masonic Ritual is false, as this is NOT a Masonic Ritual.

quote: (Jehovah is not the God of anti-Christian religions, I don't care how you try to phrase it away, it just will not work.***) endquote
I said no matter if you worship Himor not you will answer to Him.

Great Light of Life it is talking about Jehovah that is why it says JEHOVAH. Yes Freemasonry is open to a lot but not all faiths. And those who did not believe in Jehovah just had to be quiet about it. Again thou I have stated many times before Jehovah was changed to Great Arcitech of the Universe from John Calvin due to Jews could not say the name of God.

Freemasonry is open to any faith that claims a 'supreme being', whether it is Jehovah God or not, and you well know it. To say otherwise is false.
John Calvin had nothin to do with Masonic Ritual, your phrasing seems to indicate otherwise. Nevertheless, the practice of not using the name of Jehovah and sticking to generic appellations is so that the God of The Bible will not "offend" those that reject His Word.

May the Master be firm, prudent, and discreet in discharge of his duties, and as the glorious Sun gives light to the day, may he be enable to enlighten (Instruct) the Lodge, and conduct all things aright!

It does not say "instruct", and given the specifics of the Language used in Masonry, if it meant "instruct", it would say so. I well remember the learning of the Work to the crossed-t and dotted-i; Masonry is careful of its p's and q's. Furthermore, given the pagan roots of Freemasonry, "enlighten" "as the glorious Sun" renders a much clearer meaning.

Wardens
again WD were is it wrong to pray for men to record the Truth that God would aprove off in other words be honest.

Problem is, that is NOT what it says. Read it in context, but moreso in the true understanding of Freemasonry's pagan roots. Likewise with the deacons.

(and may every brother practice out of the Lodge the duties that are inculcated in it)

Duties: Brotherly Love and Charity

(Christians cannot share any duties to God with such ungodly religions, because they have different "gods)

Ok WD I will longer help the needed, feed the sick or shelter the Homeless because someone I work with does not believe the same as me. Is that what you want WD you want to just work with Christians to heal the sick you know what happens WD. There was a Muslim Doctor who found a cure for the Black Plague he said if you pop the boils and fill them with sulfer they will heal and they did althou it was really painful. But the people at the time would not accept it because it came from a Muslim Doctor not a Christian Doctor. How many people could have lived if they listened.

Nice word-twisting here, but not at all close to what I asked. These duties are supposedly to be done in/for the Glory of Jehovah, but non-Christian and anti-Christian religions do not share in this service because they serve false "gods".
Remember, you must include the heathen dieties in this, and they most assuredly are not Jehovah God, but they are quite welcomed under the appellation of the "Great Architect" of Freemasonry. Furthermore, that Muslim doctor was not standing beside me in Lodge, and Freemasonry claiming we worship the same God. Medicine is not Masonry, and healing does not include claims of false "gods".

quoteWhat Buddhist can make such a prayer to Jehovah? What Pagan and Pantheist can cleave to this Name? Nay, NOT ONE!) endquote

You are starting to come around WD like I said before the Muslim Jew and others will have to bite there tongue thru parts of Freemasonry due to the refrences to the Trinity and Christ. So it is they who have to comprimise not the Christian.

Mr. Webber, this is false and you know it. No man, regardless of his religion is ever expected to "bite their tongue" as you say. How many V's.O.S.L. does Freemasonry have? (Remember, I am a former Master Mason--whitewash will not play here.)
Again you claim the Trinity and Christ are referred to in Ritual. I challenge you to present the quotes from Ritual... you cannot, because they do not exist! I know, for Pete's sake, I was a Master Mason and studied Masonry deeply. What I found is what caused me to leave it.
Present these references you claim, or be seen as presenting false and unsupportable tales.

(How can the ungodly be united in His Holy name)

Than it must not be fore them. Again Freemaosnry seemed to be a Christian only Frat and in some countries it still is.

Mr. Webber, again you dodge and evade. Freemasonry far, far predates what is presented, and its roots are well seated in the Ancient Hidden Mysteries of the East. These things I learned from years of research myself.
What you call a "Christian only Frat" was born long before what became Freemasonry.

1. Unless there are two temples Solomon created to YHWH than they are the same.

Now you are being even more dishonest and facetious. The Temple in The Bible is not, I repeat NOT, The Temple presented in Masonic Ritual. Grand Master Solomon is a false presentation; Grand Master Hiram, King of Tyre is even more false; and Grand Master Hiram Abiff is even the greatest falsity. No such presentations are ever made in The Bible. Freemasonry takes the History from Kings and Chronicles and weaves it into a tapestry of lies.

2. The SBC study presented the Evidence you can read it in Fundimentalism and Freemasonry by Gary Leazer. Plus it is in your craftsmen.

The SBC study is NOT Masonic Ritual... nice try, but not even a leaner here, much less a ringer. Again you say the Trinity is in the Ritual... present the evidence! Again you cannot, and both of us know why... it is not in the Ritual at all.

3. If you do not believe YHWH created the universe than that is your choice. YHWH is present in the Ritual the Prayer I posted can go to any of the Rituals.

Now you get really far in left field here, as I have not said anything about not believing God created the universe...where do you get that? (Noticed you switched from Jehovah to YHWH... any reasons for this?)
Jehovah, YHWH, Yaheweh, Jove... none of these are presented in Ritual. Again, the prayer you quoted is not from Ritual either... it is simply a presentation of false "evidence".

4. True, But in these case it is YHWH.

Look, Freemasonry is universal (I'll present the exact quotes from The Tennessee Craftsman if you would like.) and you well know it. Freemasonry respects no religion above another. When prayer is offered that encompasses all, and offered in the name of Jehovah, only one of two things will happen. All the Masons that do not believe in Jehovah will stand offended or leave, or this prayer calls upon Jehovah in vain. The answer is the latter.
Now, if you want to play games, go right ahead... if you are going to present something as evidence, you had better back it up, and make sure it is correct. The prayer you presented was NOT from Ritual, and you still cannot present any other such evidence to back your other claims.
Truth will always win out.
Study Masonry much deeper than you have, and discover its real roots, then compare it to The Bible, and you will find that you will have to choose one and leave the other. I know, because I did this, and found no escape from this Truth.

In Christ,
W.D.Rice

 

[Jacob Webber]

Gina
There would be no fear at all just ask the two here that are anti-masonic. There have been others at my Lodge who have left we do not shun them we still help when they need it. My Uncle has been kicked out but we do not stop talking to him. In fact we let him know we are praying for him that he can change. I would have no fear in leaving the Lodge. People have left because they do not have time for it any more. No one held a grudge against them. I do not hold a grudge against Mike or WD I would gladly help either one in there time of need as much as I can.

 

[frewtloop]

Since Freemasonry is UNIVERSAL, how do you get off on trying to create a U.S. VACUUM of the fraternity, as if no other Masonic jurisdiction on the planet matters?

I did no such thing. I wrote in reference to one specific question/challenge, which has been at issue for some several posts, concerning whether or not "Jehovah" appears in lodge ritual. Jacob has shown one from TN in which it does. The discussion has centered on TN ritual specifically, and U.S. ritual in general. Besides, it is not I or anyone posting from a pro position who have determined the scope of things, it is you and the other antimasons here who have defined the scope of things by supplying quotes from various lodges, and as I recall, they have all been quoted from U.S. lodges. If you are going to continue to quote from U.S. lodges to support your arguments, then it is inconsistent at best and hypocritical at worst for you to disallow me the same basis for support. Freemasonry must described as it pertains to the locale, since as Pike has duly noted, the lodge takes on the religion and the altar takes on the holy book, of whatever the predominant religion is within each Grand Lodge jurisdiction. All of the U.S. lodges would be defined as Christian lodges, and would have the Holy Bible as their VSL. This is a point you have yet to refute, mainly because you know it is true. That is why you continue to try to reframe the situation to draw a false picture of an amalgamated group gathering in U.S. lodges, which ain't what exists in practice. For someone who supposedly belonged to the lodge for some time, you are in serious need of a reality check regarding this point.

Yet another reframe of yours. Masons do not unite to religions, they unite to other Masons--and that fraternally, not religiously.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, what about the OTHER MASONS outside of the U.S.? Are they NOT united to them, to include those of OTHER RELIGIONS?

Read it again, Mike, this time slowly. Do you see that phrase "and that fraternally, not religiously? Dwell on it, breathe it in deep, let it permeate deep and expel those false notions once and for all.

Stretching to find one or even a few quotes that might appear to be biblical, doesn't refute what most Grand Lodges say about Freemasonry.

Quoting and then miscasting material from Grand Lodges is definitely not "refuting what most Grand Lodges say." Mainly because by doing so, you have not even touched on what they say at all, but on what you say about they say.

It certainly does not honor the God of the bible even if it uses biblical terms, especially when they are applied erroneously.

I've yet to see you make a valid case for this. The only way I see you arriving at a conclusion of "erroneous" is a mocking aimed at the sincerity of their use of Scripture, based a preconception that they can't be Christian anyway. Your entire reasoning on the point is circular logic.

We are NOT talking about Freemasonry in the U.S. in general; we are discussing the Masonic Order in general no matter where it exists. As former Masons, who have practiced and know the Ancient Landmarks of the Masonic Order, which one clearly states that the VSL is that Volume by the RELIGION OF THE MASON (wherever he may live and whatever religion that may be) CONTAINS THE REVEALED WILL OF GOD, suggests that the burden of proof that this [VSL] is ONLY the HOLY BIBLE rest with Freemasonry.

Look around you Mike, everywhere you post in here, nothing is discussed but U.S. Lodges, those who post as Masons are U.S. Masons, all your arguments you have offered support for are suppported with material from U.S. Grand Lodges. I'm not speculating here, I'm observing the plain hard facts as they have existed so far on this forum.

Since by Masonic standards, you, Jacob or the Grand Lodge of Tennessee cannot speak for ALL of Masonry, that proof remains to be seen, and therefore cannot be presented on behalf of the entire fraternity.

Then by your logic, it stands to reason that you cannot quote from Masonic material and make any case at all against all the fraternity either. There is no room for the double standard you prefer.

My sources is the Masonic Text Book of Tennessee, The Tennessee Craftsmen and the Gary Leazer's book Funimentlism and Freemasonry and others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be a bit more clear if he said it came from one or the other, but it doesn't matter, because the Masonic "rule of thumb" is, no one person or body speaks for the entire fraternity, whether it’s The Worm, Jacob, Gary Leazer or the Grand Lodge of Tennessee.

How could it be "more clear" by being one or the other, when he has made it emphatically clear that you can find it in both?

And if you really want to play that card and thumb your nose at this "masonic rule of thumb," then you need to realize that on that basis, neither do you have any claim for any accusations.

So, it appears you, Jacob and the entire defense team of the Masonic Order are trapped in Freemasonry's own "catch-22" that often blows up in its face.

Yes, and it's a two-way street, so wipe the powder out of your eyes, and start over. This whole thing started, after all, not with Freemasons but with antimason accusers.

TW

 

[Jacob Webber]

WD
Can you open a Lodge without Prayer. It is part of the Ritual. You can not proceed without the Prayer.

(Freemasonry is open to any faith that claims a 'supreme being', whether it is Jehovah God or not, and you well know it. To say otherwise is false.)

I never said otherwise.

(John Calvin had nothin to do with Masonic Ritual, your phrasing seems to indicate otherwise.)
I never said He did I said Freemasonry took the term G.A.O.T.U from Him.

As far as the Trinity WD you know it is there in your Tennessee Chraftsmen. As including heaten deities I do not have too as I do not worship them. And yes I was messing with you on stated that you were coming around as we have with each other in the past. WD it comes down to you do not like Freemasonry you will not see YHWH in it even thou He is there you just refuss it. Because you have already made up your mind that it is evil. And no matter even if the Prayer has the name of YHWH in it you will try to dismanlte it and tur it into something pagan. As I stated before the Blue Lodge rituals come from the York Rite. The York Rite teches Salvation thru Jesus Christ has Christ in it and has the completion of the Hiram story in it. But you did not go thru it you dropped out before hand. IF you had not than it would be alot more clear to you. The Knights Templar only accepts those who profess a Faith in Jesus Christ. Many Masons say you are not Truely a Master Mason until you go thru the York Rite.

 

[frewtloop]

Gina,

If this is simply a club type group going around doing good things, why not simply continue doing them through your local church and avoid the bad things people think of Masons?

By that line of reasoning, there would never have been a Christian Church. One of the big criticisms the Jews had of the church was their reverence of a man who died on a cross, which went directly against a known expression of God's view in the Word, "Cursed be he who hangs on a tree." So I assume that if we were a group of Jews sitting around talking this out, and I was taking the pro-Christian position, then if you were consistent with what you just had to say, I would be better off to simply stay put and side with the Jews, to "avoid the bad things that people think of the Christians?"

TW

 

[O.F.F.]

WD,

Great response to Jacob.

It is interesting how his argument folds when confronted by a former Mason from his own jurisdiction.

Freemasonry respects no religion above another. When prayer is offered that encompasses all, and offered in the name of Jehovah, only one of two things will happen. All the Masons that do not believe in Jehovah will stand offended or leave, or this prayer calls upon Jehovah in vain.

Allow me to add one more possibility:

Masons who do not believe in Yahweh -- that is Jehovah God of the Bible -- are not offended by prayers said in His or even in Jesus' name in the context of the worship of their false gods when praying in the lodge. Why? Because the prayer calls upon the worship of the false gods and the worship of Yahweh, since conceptually it is confused or mixed by the concept of Freemasonry's universal "generic" god (G.A.O.T.U.).

In other words, as long as Masons think that ALL gods are one in the same, no one is going to be offended no matter what name you call Him (or it). Unfortunately, for "Christian" Masons, this is a clear violation of the First Commandment as they engage in prayer to Yahweh in the context of nonbelievers praying to false gods during times of prayer in the Lodge.

It's a violation, because at those moments they are standing side-by-side, with believers in false gods, agreeing in prayer to gods beside -- or in addition to -- Jehovah.

"Thou shall not have any other gods before, beside, or in addition to me." -- Exodus 20:3 (emphasis added)

Sincerely in His grip,

Mike

[ June 02, 2004, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: O.F.F. ]

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by TheWorm:
Gina,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If this is simply a club type group going around doing good things, why not simply continue doing them through your local church and avoid the bad things people think of Masons?

By that line of reasoning, there would never have been a Christian Church. One of the big criticisms the Jews had of the church was their reverence of a man who died on a cross, which went directly against a known expression of God's view in the Word, "Cursed be he who hangs on a tree." So I assume that if we were a group of Jews sitting around talking this out, and I was taking the pro-Christian position, then if you were consistent with what you just had to say, I would be better off to simply stay put and side with the Jews, to "avoid the bad things that people think of the Christians?"

TW </font>[/QUOTE]That would be a logical line of reasoning if we weren't talking about Christianity, which is a matter of eternal life or death.
A club in NO way compares with a religious belief system that can damn your soul or save it.
Gina

 

[Jacob Webber]

(In other words, as long as Masons think that ALL gods are one in the same, no one is going to be offended no matter what name you call Him (or it). Unfortunately, for "Christian" Masons, this is a clear violation of the First Commandment as they engage in prayer to Yahweh in the context of nonbelievers praying to false gods during times of prayer in the Lodge.)

If all mason think all gods are one in the Same than why even bother to ask to Profess a Faith in Jesus Christ and tech that He is the only way to Heaven. This is what the Knights Templar says. They are Masons. And again the Blue Lodge degrees come from the York Rite a Christian Frat. Because the Blue Lodge is the lower three degrees of the York Rite it is just part of the story when your progress thru the York Rite the story is completed and Ends with Christ.

Gina
I forgot to mention that if a person leaves the Lodge or is kick out of the Lodge they can repettion the Lodge after a yr I believe maybe more. If the just left they pay two yrs dues and are reinstated. In they were kicked out they are reexamined and put on a parole to see if they have change their character. Than they may be allowed to repetition the Lodge.

 

[O.F.F.]

Worm, you failed to read the previous post by WD, a former Mason from Tennesee, when you said:

I did no such thing. I wrote in reference to one specific question/challenge, which has been at issue for some several posts, concerning whether or not "Jehovah" appears in lodge ritual. Jacob has shown one from TN in which it does.

Did you NOT read where Jacob said to WD, "I told you it is from the black Masonic Text Book 4th Edition." To which WD, a FORMER Mason from Jacob's jurisdiction refuted saying, "Then the claim that Jehovah is presented in Masonic Ritual is false, as this is NOT a Masonic Ritual."

Again, Worm, the Black Masonic Text Book is NOT Masonic ritual, so Jacob has NOT satisfied the CHALLENGE of presenting the God of the Bible in Masonic ritual.

You closed your last post to me with:

Yes, and it's a two-way street, so wipe the powder out of your eyes, and start over. This whole thing started, after all, not with Freemasons but with antimason accusers.

No it is NOT a two-way street, as we are NO LONGER Masons. We no longer have to play by Masonic "rules," but active Masons and defenders of the Masonic faith -- like you -- do, or else stand as hypocrites. So, take the foot out of your mouth, and try again. Freemasonry stands guilty as charged; deceptive, unbiblical, and anti-Christian.

Mike

 

[Jacob Webber]

(Black Masonic Text Book is NOT Masonic ritual, so Jacob)

The black Masonic Text Book predates the Craftsmen it is the orignal what you call masonic monitor. The current addition is 24th edition TN Craftsman this one predates it by 20 editions. So before saying the Book is not Masonic Ritual do some research. Again the Blue Lodge degrees come from the York Rite a Christian Frat. So what God is present in the Ritual of a Christian Frat it would be YHWH in Threefold aspect of the Trinity. The first Three Degrees come from this York Rite so what God is in that Ritual YHWH in the Threefold Aspect of the Trinity.

 

[O.F.F.]

Corey,

The York Rite is no more a Christian frat than any Masonic Temple is a "Christian" lodge. Besides, according to the Scottish Rite, they stake claim that the first three degrees come from them:

The Scottish Rite

Mike

 

[Jacob Webber]

Requirements For Membership of Knights Templar

Member of a recognized Craft Lodge (Master Mason)

Member of a recognized Chapter (Royal Arch Mason)

Personally known by his sponsor and seconder

Well reputed for morals and gentlemanly conduct

Believer in the doctrine of the Holy Trinity (a Christian)

York rite: believed to have begun 925-940AD or disbanded in 1313
Blue Lodge: 1717AD
Scottish Rite: 1804AD

 

[frewtloop]

That would be a logical line of reasoning if we weren't talking about Christianity, which is a matter of eternal life or death.
A club in NO way compares with a religious belief system that can damn your soul or save it.

I wasn't the one who initiated the club reference, that was a quote from you that I responded to. But thank you for clearly making my point, that a fraternal organization "in NO way compares with a religious belief system that can damn your soul or save it." That's been my contention all along, and I'm glad to see someone on the anti side finally understand it too.

TW

 

[frewtloop]

The Holy Bible, Square, and Compasses, are not only styled the Great Lights in Masonry, but they are also technically called the Furniture of the Lodge; and, as you have seen, it is held that there is no Lodge without them. This has sometimes been made a pretext for excluding Jews from our Lodges, because they cannot regard the New Testament as a holy book. The Bible is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Christian Lodge, only because it is the sacred book of the Christian religion. The Hebrew Pentateuch in a Hebrew Lodge, and the Koran in a Mohammedan one, belong on the Altar; and one of these, and the Square and Compass, properly understood, are the Great Lights by which a Mason must walk and work.

The obligation of the candidate is always to be taken on the sacred book or books of his religion, that he may deem it more solemn and binding; and therefore it was that you were asked of what religion you were. We have no other concern with your religious creed. (Pike, Morals & Dogma, p. 11)

Gee, this just doesn't quite float your boat. There can be Christian lodges, Mohammedan lodges, Hebrew lodges, it just depends on where the lodge happens to be situated and who the majority of attendees would thus be. This country is overwhelmingly Christian as far as religious choices go, no reason to call it by any of the other designations. That doesn't mean I'm trying to call Freemasonry a Christian institution, which always seems to be your greatest fear anytime anybody discovers Christian or biblical elements within it. In fact, it is not a religion at all, as is clear from the above remarks.

Of course, you will inevitably remind me now, that "Pike doesn't speak for all Masons," adopting in chameleonic fashion the very phrase you deny when Masons cite it. And the fact is, Pike does not speak for all Masons, and there is an awful lot Pike had to say that most Masons seem to take strong exception to. However, this statement would not be one of them, and I haven't seen anybody but antimasons who have a problem with it.

TW

 

[O.F.F.]

Worm,

You confuse, or misunderstand, Masonic princlples vs. Masonic practice. Let me try to explain.

It is Masonic practice to function "religiously" within the confines of the religion of the majority of Masons in a given country. However, the critical matter is that the Masonic principle makes no distinction of religious practice, thereby making ALL Masons, and their religions, their gods, and their VSL's ALL on the SAME level. Herein lies the biblical heresy of its PRINCIPLES.

Cordially,

Mike

 

[frewtloop]

Masonic principle makes no distinction of religious practice, thereby making ALL Masons, and their religions, their gods, and their VSL's ALL on the SAME level.

I don't see how you can miss the contradiction this creates with the above quote. If they were all on the same level, all VSL's represented by all individuals in the lodge would be on the altar. They are not. In fact, there are never more than two, one from the religion with the most adherents in that lodge, which remains on the altar at all times, and one which is placed there for a ritual obligation only, at the request of an individual, and is removed afterward.

No matter how you try to slice and dice it to fit your own personal opinion, respect for the various religions that might be represented in a particular lodge does not equate to the polytheism or syncretism that you continually make it out to be. Masonry commands no man's religion, they do quite the opposite and go to great lengths not only to respect it, but to encourage the individual himself to maintain it.

TW

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

The Worm,

The God of this World has blinded the eyes of them that believe not...

That's how...

There can be no other allegience but Jesus...

His flag can *never* fly at the same height of any other...


He, and He alone, is Lord of Lords and King of Kings...

If he is not Lord of Lords... Then we fail at a critical point in Salvation as understood in Romans 10:9-10

Lordship is not just a mere verbal confession... It is a continuous lifstyle confession, a testimony by example, a martyrdom of self to the Lordship of Christ.

The Bible clearly states you can not serve two masters...

And, 'The Lodge' states they are top dog...

Yes, truly blind... To not see such a glaring contradiction...

Wish I could be more hopeful...

But, for far too many... Friendship (and business contacts) with the world is more important that Naming Christ as absolute Lord of Lords...


Without reservation or equivocation, HE only IS LORD!

 

[frewtloop]

SMM,

There can be no other allegience but Jesus...

His flag can *never* fly at the same height of any other...


He, and He alone, is Lord of Lords and King of Kings...

If he is not Lord of Lords... Then we fail at a critical point in Salvation as understood in Romans 10:9-10

Lordship is not just a mere verbal confession... It is a continuous lifstyle confession, a testimony by example, a martyrdom of self to the Lordship of Christ.

The Bible clearly states you can not serve two masters...

To all of which I agree, with no mental reservation, no secret evasion whatsoever. He's been my Lord for quite a few years, and continues to be. I can say the same for all the Masons in my acquaintance. In case you haven't been reading all the posts that have been put here, there has not been one single Mason who has set aside faith in Christ in any way for the lodge.

And, 'The Lodge' states they are top dog...

There are statements posted above that indicate the contrary. I assume you have some statement from the lodge to show that they somehow assert their authority above that of God? I've never seen any such thing myself.

Wish I could be more hopeful...

Actually, I wish you could be more helpful. . . like providing something to corroborate what appears to be an off-the-wall, unfounded accusation.

TW