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Why would God say: "I Have Hated Esau..."?
- Thread starter Ben W
- Start date
Scott
"WHY" would a "SPIRIT LED PERSON" consider the "TRUTH" as being "Offensive", rather than saying "AMEN", to the "TRUTH"???
An "HONEST" "self examination" is prescribed by scripture.
The "presentation" is only as "effective" to as many as have "ears to hear Truth", and "AGREE".
Did I post anything that "WASN'T TRUTH"??
"WHY" would a "SPIRIT LED PERSON" consider the "TRUTH" as being "Offensive", rather than saying "AMEN", to the "TRUTH"???
An "HONEST" "self examination" is prescribed by scripture.
The "presentation" is only as "effective" to as many as have "ears to hear Truth", and "AGREE".
Did I post anything that "WASN'T TRUTH"??</font>[/QUOTE] Yes. Especially when you imply that we must not be Spirit led and possibly even not saved because we won't follow your unbiblical reasoning.
I don't know... perhaps you can tell us.
Yes it is. Your point?
Who gives the "ears to hear Truth"? Are they the result of a decision to have them or the result of a decision to give them?
That is the crux of our debate.
You remember when we were kids and there was always that "He started it"/"No, he started it" whenever a fight occurred?
Well, with regard to salvation, I say God started it by changing the nature of each saved individual. You say that man starts it for himself I suppose because you don't think his nature must be changed to have saving faith in the first place.
A spirit led person will agree with the truth, even if they are guilty.
I just did.[qb]"WHY" would a "SPIRIT LED PERSON" consider the "TRUTH" as being "Offensive", rather than saying "AMEN", to the "TRUTH"???
I don't know... perhaps you can tell us.
"WHY" did Jesus say people wasn't saved, his fault, no "effectual call/Presentation"??
Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
This is another case of "I would, they wouldn't".
Calvin blames their "deft/blind" condition on God and predestination, but Jesus said the blame was on them, not him, he would have, they wouldn't,
And it's the same throughout scripture, God would, that none should perish, but people wouldn't, some do perish.
Calvins doctrine has put "blinders" on many people and absolutely "Destroyed" "Reading comprehension".
A spirit led person will agree with the truth, even if they are guilty. </font>[/QUOTE] Then why don't you?
Seriously, we are all limited by the flesh and even the most Spirit led people will sometimes be bound by biases, misconceptions, presuppositions, and their limited perspective.
I don't think I am wrong on this. I believe that I am Spirit led on it and that this is confirmed because my beliefs are consistent with scripture.
I believe you are wrong on this. Precisely because I believe you have failed to account for all of scripture. That doesn't mean that you aren't Spirit led on this or any other issue... since my flesh still battles against the Spirit meaning that I could be wrong in spite of my confidence and spiritual peace that I am not.
"WHY" did Jesus say people wasn't saved, his fault, no "effectual call/Presentation"??</font>[/QUOTE] Because they rebel in sin.
Now, what is your answer? It is a telling weakness of your position that you refuse to answer straight forward questions in a straight forward manner.
Nope. Simply another case where "they wouldn't"... and God let them.
Calvin spoke for himself. I blame their deaf/blind/dead condition on the sin of man- both the original sin of Adam as our representative as well as our individual rebellion and sin.
I gave my biblical answer to this repeatedly and asked you to do the same in the form of a very, very simple question: Can man thwart the perfect will of God?
I answered while you evade. Why? Just give an honest, direct yes or no answer as I have done. Why is that so difficult for you?
No. Calvinism has opened many eyes by attempting to account for God's sovereignty and man's will in a biblically consistent way. You have charged many things. You have said many things. But you have yet to prove that calvinism blinds anyone or is not scripturally consistent.Calvins doctrine has put "blinders" on many people and absolutely "Destroyed" "Reading comprehension".
Now the straw men you have attempted to set up... the words you have put in calvinists' mouths... those haven't been scripturally consistent. But if you listen and let us speak for ourselves... you are going to have a much more difficult time mounting any argument at all.
Come to think of it... that may be why anti-calvinists so desparately and consistently attempt to put words in our mouths.
Hello Me4Him.
And just in case you think Calvin perverts the gospel with a lie that God blinds people DT 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:
Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. 4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. 5 During the forty years that I led you through the desert, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.
the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7.
john.
Idle words showing a depth of ignorance beyond belief. Wycliffe never put blinkers on anyone did he? You have heard of him haven't you? What is that mockery of a statement you make? Our whole Western civilisation stems from Calvin and the other Reformers putting their lives on the line for the truth to be published. Read about those days they are awe inspiring. Hero's of the faith. They threw off the darkness that had attacked the Church for a thousand years and you owe them respect and gratitude for your freedom they fought for and they risked all for Christ. Very many were burnt at the stake and worse.
It is not Calvin's doctrine it is mine. It is not Calvin's doctrine it is Scotts. Deal with us not Calvin with scripture not opinion based on ignorance of the past.
The statement is simply false as Calvin did not blame God but spoke of God's Sovereign power to do as He pleases. Calvin might have said God has predestined but then he would have written thus: For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight...Eph 1:4.
And just in case you think Calvin perverts the gospel with a lie that God blinds people DT 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:
Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. 4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. 5 During the forty years that I led you through the desert, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.
the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7.
john.
"WRONG", the spirit won't attempt to teach any who "lean on their own understanding", "HUMBLE" as a "Child", willing to believe anything the spirit teaches, even if it contradidcts their previous held beliefs.
Would you be willing to believe "Black is white" if the spirit said so??
The JEWS also believed their "Views" were consistance with Scripture, and Jesus was "wrong".
There's only "one way" to find out the truth, ask the Spirit to teach you, then be prepared to accept what you don't believe, because the first thing the spirit will teach is something you don't believe, just to see "IF" you will accept it's teaching.
Calvin's doctrine "DENIES" that "GOD" offers salvation to the "WHOLE WORLD", that the "ERROR", (which I prefer to call "lie") that is taught by this doctrine,
Man's final destination isn't determined by man's "sowing/reaping", but the "Sovereign will" of God's "predestine" plan.
Out of the heart, the mouth speaks, words are a window into a person's heart, words generated by the spirit will be recognized by those of the spirit, Spirit bears witness to spirit,
It's the same as listening to a preacher with the spirit and one without the spirit, but this day/age, few can tell that differece.
Until you're willing to "forget" everything you've ever learned, and start over, Humble/believing any/everything the spirit will teach, you'll never keep growing in knowledge, Calvin is a far as you'll go.
Calvin doctrine can't explain the purpose of God putting a tree of good/evil in the garden and giving Adam/Eve a "CHOICE" between it and the tree of life,
and "WHY" there won't be a tree of good/evil on the "NEW EARTH", and "no choice".
Only when you realize there's more to the scriptures than Calvin's doctrine can explain, do you understand the "ignorance" of calvin's doctrine.
I've never read any of their "Sermons", so what they taught, I have no idea, but I do know this, one thing can be said/meant, the devil can give it a "slight twist" in the ears of the hearer and it means just the opposite, which is what I believe has happened to their "sermons".
From what I've "heard", the "idea" may have been Calvin's, but the doctrine developed after his death.
Your' "error" is believing the above verse was only meant for the "predestined saved", but scripture says the offer was to the "WHOLE WORLD", you place a "LIMIT" on God's love for all mankind, Scripture doesn't, God's no respector of persons, a sinner is a sinner, and Jesus die for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD" that the "WHOLE WORLD"... MIGHT BE... saved
Your interpretation is a good example of a "slight twist" in the meaning of scripture to arrive at the wrong conclusion.
Calvin doctrine ignores the "BASICS" of scripture, how many were many sinners, how many God loved/Jesus die to redeem, when those "Basics" are ignored, nothing else is "right".
"WRONG", the spirit won't attempt to teach any who "lean on their own understanding", "HUMBLE" as a "Child", willing to believe anything the spirit teaches, even if it contradidcts their previous held beliefs. </font>[/QUOTE] If you think that you are so perfect that your flesh doesn't get in the way of your understanding then your problem goes much deeper than being wrong on sotierology. I have never seen someone so humble and averse to leaning on their own understanding (even without realizing it) that they became an absolutel infallible interpretter of scripture... and judging from the implicit dishonesty in some of your methods and arguments I don't think I found one in you.
Certainly. If the Spirit had inspired the biblical writers to record such a thing then I certainly would. But scripture is the basis and standard for the Spirit's communication with us. If you have a "feeling" or a "leading" or any other impulse to believe something... you don't just "go with it". You must compare it to scripture.
And btw, your impulses are biases... so for you to do what you cited above (willing to believe anything the Spirit teaches) you must put those impulses aside. My read on you is that you bring your ideals about man and fairness to the scripture... claiming or even believing that it is the Spirit's leading then try to force scripture into that box.
The JEWS also believed their "Views" were consistance with Scripture, and Jesus was "wrong".</font>[/QUOTE] Views based on scripture will always be superior to those that are not well founded on scripture.
None the less, I started out implicitly believing much as you do. I struggled to reconcile man's free will. I was periodically plagued with doubts about whether I had done enough, said the right words, had the right amount of faith, etc.
The Spirit has given me peace through the recognition that I was saved... I didn't save myself nor was my salvation ultimately dependent on a good choice made by me. It was ultimately dependent on the grace and promises of a God that cannot lie and changes not.
There's only "one way" to find out the truth, ask the Spirit to teach you, then be prepared to accept what you don't believe, because the first thing the spirit will teach is something you don't believe, just to see "IF" you will accept it's teaching. </font>[/QUOTE] I have done that. I changed from something close to your view to my view now. My prayer is still that God will reveal truth to me... that He will get me out of the way.
You cite humility above as prerequisite to learning of the Spirit... and you are right. The interesting thing is that you demonstrate a great deal of pride in these condescending statements. You aren't acknowledging that you could be wrong. You are placing way too much confidence in your flesh.
Calvin's doctrine "DENIES" that "GOD" offers salvation to the "WHOLE WORLD",</font>[/QUOTE] Repeating false propaganda until it was accepted as truth worked for the Nazis but it is very unbecoming of a Christian. Calvinisim teaches what the Bible teaches. There is a general call that God foreknows will not be heeded by the natural man. Then there is the effectual call that God frees the spiritual man to hear.
Further, it is my personal belief that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all sin for all time (times infinity). It is only efficient and directed toward those that God foreknew and predestined to salvation... the only other reasonable alternatives to this are universalism or open theism.
BTW, prove that God has offered salvation to the "WHOLE WORLD". The fact is that people live and die never hearing the clear gospel.
The problem is that the "lie" is the one you tell yourself about what we believe. The deception is your insistence in telling us what we believe rather than simply dealing with what we say we believe.
Right. It is not by any works of righteousness that we have done. Period.
If a preacher teaches something that is not consistent with all of scripture and does not account for verses that directly undermine his claims... then he is not "with the Spirit".
How vain and arrogant of you. The scripture as revealed by the Spirit is what I have believed. Your vain imaginings are neither convincing nor spiritual.
No. Actually we do at least as well as you on that one.
You can't explain why God would do so knowing that man would sin.
Salamander
New Member
I can! Jesus was as a Lamb slain before the foundations of the world: knowing man would sin, needing a Saviour.
It is not "bungle in the jungle" as Ian Andersen convinced so many unsuspecting souls to believe.
The problem Calvinism has is that man was never holy until after election, not elected because of his holiness, neither was any man ever "in Him" before salvation as the means of making any man holy and elect, precious..
Calvinism is nothing more than a man made FALSE doctrine trying to explain away the Sovereignty of God by bringing it down to man's ability to reason, for himself, Not Himself.
It is not "bungle in the jungle" as Ian Andersen convinced so many unsuspecting souls to believe.
The problem Calvinism has is that man was never holy until after election, not elected because of his holiness, neither was any man ever "in Him" before salvation as the means of making any man holy and elect, precious..
Calvinism is nothing more than a man made FALSE doctrine trying to explain away the Sovereignty of God by bringing it down to man's ability to reason, for himself, Not Himself.
The problem with this statement is it ties God's plan and grace to our perception of time and finiteness.... but mostly because it is contrary to what scripture actually says.
Sal, Nothing you have said in any of the posts I have read comes close to proving calvinism false.
I have not explained away God's sovereignty nor man's will. We simply try to accept what the Bible says about both together.
I got pulled away before I finished with you earlier.
No. That argument is no more valid than your argument about in being unjust for God to choose some without their making a choice first but not others.
If you understand calvinism then one would have to conclude that you are dishonest by the way you so frequently mischaracterize it. I prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt (that you deny us) and say that your biased views stand in the way of your comprehending this doctrine that Spurgeon called the biblical gospel.
That is a very, very good question... for you! If man must have a choice then obviously God shouldn't "force" man to endure the "New earth" with no choice in the matter at all. Why God will just be playing the puppet master, right?
No. That argument is no more valid than your argument about in being unjust for God to choose some without their making a choice first but not others.
You have certainly demonstrated ignorance... but it isn't ignorance to be found in what we believe and say or in how we justify it from scripture.
If you understand calvinism then one would have to conclude that you are dishonest by the way you so frequently mischaracterize it. I prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt (that you deny us) and say that your biased views stand in the way of your comprehending this doctrine that Spurgeon called the biblical gospel.
Hello Me4Him.
You know nothing about it do you? "From what I've "heard", the "idea" may have been Calvin's..." What does that mean man? What idea, Calvinism? (I might milk this for all it is worth yet.)
When I hear something I go and check it out I don't on the basis of hearing something form a doctrine around it. Tickle your ears did it?
Sorry my mistake.
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Can you not understand that? Just as it is written: You are commanded to believe that it is just as it is written. Scripture is so cool. HaHa! Didn't you hear what He has in store for the world?
Scripture does.
But He respects me.
No sacrifice means no sacrifice.
john.
Cool as a cucumber you say Calvin's doctrine is ignorance yet at the same time you admit to not knowing what they taught? I've never read any of their "Sermons", so what they taught, I have no idea... What is this but a new way to view reality? Not that any explanation comes from you as to scripture.
Why didn't you make sure as scripture commands you? Make sure of all things it says don't it? If you love me you will obey me. Jesus said that. From what you have heard you make a judgement on the Children of God venomously?
Now maybe you will be able to discuss the doctrine as you have accidently untied Calvin from Calvinism.
You know nothing about it do you? "From what I've "heard", the "idea" may have been Calvin's..." What does that mean man? What idea, Calvinism? (I might milk this for all it is worth yet.)
When I hear something I go and check it out I don't on the basis of hearing something form a doctrine around it. Tickle your ears did it?
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight...Eph 1:4.Your' "error" is believing the above (Below now
Sorry my mistake.
It was not me that sets a limit on God's love.
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Can you not understand that? Just as it is written: You are commanded to believe that it is just as it is written.
Scripture is so cool. HaHa! Didn't you hear what He has in store for the world?Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Scripture does.
Yes I know, look how He treated Esau.
But He respects me.Not Eli's household. Just as it was written: 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
No sacrifice means no sacrifice.
I've never read any of their "Sermons", so what they taught, I have no idea... Your opinion is what?
I don't know, probably many.
Exactly. How many God loved Jesus died for. He did not love Esau or Eli's lot, do you want more?
You have a spirit that teaches you extrabiblical stuff and you do not know what we teach so you have no authority to think you can lecture us have you?
john.
John
Lu 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Why do I have to "Hate" my "Mother/Father" to be a "Christians""??
Ex 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Are "YOU" willing to "ADMIT" that there might be something "WRONG" with your interpretation/application of the word "Hate" within context of scripture???
Lu 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Why do I have to "Hate" my "Mother/Father" to be a "Christians""??
Ex 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother:
Are "YOU" willing to "ADMIT" that there might be something "WRONG" with your interpretation/application of the word "Hate" within context of scripture???
I'm still waiting for the "Answer". </font>[/QUOTE]Why should I answer your questions when you so doggedly evaded mine? What exactly makes you think you deserve an answer?
Besides that, the question is rhetorical and a pointless diversion....
However, so that I can't be accused of evading yourhard questions. Here is my biblical answer:
Because God created it according to His own divine, sovereign plan that was in no way dependent on YOUR choice. He did it so that His purpose according to election and His own good pleasure might stand to HIS glory... and not man's.
Now, I have answered your questions... even the {less than intelligent} ones.
But you have at least two outstanding questions that you refuse to answer:
1) Can man's choice thwart the perfect will of God?
2) If there is no tree of good/evil in new earth then doesn't that mean according to your logic that God is violating man's right to free will?
When will you stop evading?
Is it, the answer would destroy everything calvin teaches, is that "rhetorical and a pointless diversion"???
Sorry, all you've given is "your opinion", no scripture.
Would God have preferred that Adam/Eve, NOT SIN, or sin???
God's "perfect will" was for his "perfect creation" to remain a "perfect world", did that happen??
Answer one question, "WHY"...the tree of good/evil on the first earth, but not on the second earth,..."WHY"???
If you're so sure of Calvin, you should possess the knowledge to answer this question.
Is it, the answer would destroy everything calvin teaches, is that "rhetorical and a pointless diversion"??? </font>[/QUOTE] How so? I gave you an answer. A biblical answer. What possible answer could a calvinist give that would destroy its teachings? That's absurd.
Sorry, all you've given is "your opinion", no scripture.</font>[/QUOTE] Read the text of scripture. Read the text of Rev 21. It came down from God. He created it the way He wanted. Period.
Would God have preferred that Adam/Eve, NOT SIN, or sin???
God's "perfect will" was for his "perfect creation" to remain a "perfect world", did that happen??</font>[/QUOTE] More evasion.... more evasion.... if you were "spiritual" and biblically founded on this... you would be able to give a "yes" or "no" answer then back it up with a reasonable explanation. But all you do is evade.
Answer one question, "WHY"...the tree of good/evil on the first earth, but not on the second earth,..."WHY"???</font>[/QUOTE] I DID!!!!! Because God chose to make it that way so that His plan might be accomplished.
YOUR TURN to ANSWER rather than ask questions.
In fact, add your answer to that last question why do you say that He would have done so?
In fact that is now at least 3 questions that you owe me answers to.
I am not sure of "Calvin". I am sure of what the Bible says. Calvinism is simply a term used to describe a point of view concerning interpretation.
I don't know how Calvin would have answered your question nor do I care... Do you?
Here's you some starter verses Me4... you know, it is interesting that you put you first. "ME4him" instead of "HIM4me".
Any way:
Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Whose pleasure? God's. What things? All things... including the presence or absence of a tree.
Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen
What??? According to you, it is all so that man can have a choice... How dare He so blatantly say that all things are for His glory?
Any way:
Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Whose pleasure? God's. What things? All things... including the presence or absence of a tree.
Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen
What??? According to you, it is all so that man can have a choice... How dare He so blatantly say that all things are for His glory?