Why would God say: "I Have Hated Esau..."?

[EdSutton]

It was not my sensibilities that were offended. I think I know where you were aiming, as well. I do not have a problem with that, just the name calling. And I do fully agree with the evading of a question. I think a question deserves an answer. Yes, also I have seen multiple twisting of words, as well, by many. I would also agree that there is no reason for that either. I do not think it is the spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ for His appeal was to the Scriptures, as He said "Search the Scriptures...". The Scriptures say: "Set forth your case" in, I believe, Isa. 40:22 but I'm running behind, after loading two bulls on the farm and will not look this up. The Word also says to 'have an answer for every man that asks you a reason...' Seems like a plan, to me. In His grace,
Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Incidentally, I have read the whole thead, Scott, and in fact have commented on it before.
Ed

 

[Me4Him]

Scott

If Christ's death is "efficient" for the whole world then God is unjust for condemning any. Your only consistent conclusion with this line of argument is universalism... which is also unbiblical.

If you owe a "FINE" or "DEBT" which you can't pay and "someone" "OFFERS" to the pay the Fine/Debt for you, but you refuse, does that constitute the fine/debt as being "PAID"???

"The "WAGES" (fine/Debt) of sin is "DEATH", Jesus's death won't be accepted as "PAYMENT" for a person's sins "UNLESS" the person accepts him as their "REDEEMER" from the Fine/debt owed.

Being saved means unless you are saved by Jesus dying in your place, to pay the wages of sin, then you will have to die to pay the "wages of sin", but the debt must/will be paid by a "DEATH", either Jesus/person.

Jesus death doesn't "Automatically" pay the wages of sin for "Everyone", something else is required first, "FAITH/BELIEF" by the person that Jesus can/will save them from dying. (hell)

In dying for the sin of the whole world, Jesus made it possible for the whole world to be saved,

IF THEY BELIEVE

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him MIGHT BE saved.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


"double Jeopardy", without a doubt, is the "MOST IGNORANT" statement about the plan of salvation I've ever heard.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Me4Him.

If you owe a "FINE" or "DEBT" which you can't pay and "someone" "OFFERS" to the pay the Fine/Debt for you, but you refuse, does that constitute the fine/debt as being "PAID"???

The law on debt was that if you owe a sum to another and could not pay it back then the one who is owed the money could have you thrown into prison until it is paid.

If a man was thrown into prison he could not come out until he pays what he owes. If another paid on your behalf then the one that is owed the debt cannot refuse to receive it and nor can the debtor refuse it being paid. You will be thrown out of prison regardless of your will.

"The "WAGES" (fine/Debt) of sin is "DEATH", Jesus's death won't be accepted as "PAYMENT" for a person's sins "UNLESS" the person accepts him as their "REDEEMER" from the Fine/debt owed.

Then you should check up on the law because the debt is accepted by the one that is owed it. He cannot refuse and so keep you in prison. Your "UNLESS" the person receives it is wrong.

Jesus death doesn't "Automatically" pay the wages of sin for "Everyone", something else is required first, "FAITH/BELIEF" by the person that Jesus can/will save them from dying. (hell)

It's by grace not by works.

"double Jeopardy", without a doubt, is the "MOST IGNORANT" statement about the plan of salvation I've ever heard.

That's because you don't believe Jesus died for you. He died for me therefore for me to receive the punishment for my sins would mean two have paid the penalty.

john.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by johnp.:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"The "WAGES" (fine/Debt) of sin is "DEATH", Jesus's death won't be accepted as "PAYMENT" for a person's sins "UNLESS" the person accepts him as their "REDEEMER" from the Fine/debt owed.

Then you should check up on the law because the debt is accepted by the one that is owed it. He cannot refuse and so keep you in prison. Your "UNLESS" the person receives it is wrong.


john. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]The Bible isn't just a book we read and interpret with the mind, it's one we "EXPERIENCE", in mind, heart, feelings and life.

It's an "experience" that even Webster can't describe with all his words, the Bible and it's interpretation/understanding goes far beyond it's "words on paper".

It's a book so complicated no "Natural mind" can comprehend it, yet so simple when taught by the Holy Ghost, even a "wayfaring fool" wouldn't make a mistake.

The Academic world makes "educated guesses" attempting to interpret/explain the Bible, completely ignorant that the wisdom of it's words, isn't in it's words, but in the "SPIRIT".

Those who have been led/taught by the "SPIRIT", quickly, and easily, recognize interpretations by the SPIRIT or by the world.

That the differences between "Reading the Bible" and "Experiencing the Bible".

 

[johnp.]

Yes very good Me4Him but you do not deal with the reality of the law concerning debt. Jesus paid the Father my debt and the Father accepted it. What has that to do with me? The debt was owed by me to God and Jesus paid it and I went free. Easy peasy. Nothing to do with me but done on behalf of the Father by Jesus for me.

The Academic world makes "educated guesses" attempting to interpret/explain the Bible, completely ignorant that the wisdom of it's words, isn't in it's words, but in the "SPIRIT".

If a person doesn't speak according to scripture there is no light. It is to the law and to the testimony that we apply our minds to, that is lawful, not feelings. Experiences are not to be put before the word.

Those who have been led/taught by the "SPIRIT", quickly, and easily, recognize interpretations by the SPIRIT or by the world.

Yes as a communist will quickly realise if communism is threatened or a Buddhist hears a false thing about his faith. You believe God loves everybody so you are keen on this and react when it is threatened and it is threatened. How do you know that your feelings are right? Only by reading and understanding the word of God and this is a spiritual thing, the mind without the spirit understands nothing. The scripture refutes out of hand any notion that God loves everybody.

That the differences between "Reading the Bible" and "Experiencing the Bible".

Show me this in scripture.

john.

 

[Me4Him]

Show me this in scripture.

As I said, "It's not in the words, but in the "Spirit".

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Show me this in scripture.

As I said, "It's not in the words, but in the "Spirit". </font>[/QUOTE]Oh. I see. So when scripture doesn't actually say something that you need it to say to sustain your position, you say it under divine, extrabiblical revelation, right?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Show me this in scripture.

As I said, "It's not in the words, but in the "Spirit". </font>[/QUOTE]Oh. I see. So when scripture doesn't actually say something that you need it to say to sustain your position, you say it under divine, extrabiblical revelation, right? </font>[/QUOTE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That the differences between "Reading the Bible" and "Experiencing the Bible".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Show me this in scripture.

Evidently, neither you or John have "Experienced" the "Holy Ghost" leading/teaching, or you would have "KNOWN" what I meant when I said: "Experienced".

 

[Scott J]

Evading again?

Yes. The Holy Spirit has revealed to me things that were in scripture that my feeble mind had not understood before...

....But no, I will admit that I have never had the Holy Spirit teach me something from scripture that wasn't in scripture and in fact was contrary to scripture as you apparently have... Of course we are commanded to test spirits before believing things.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Me4Him.

You said: That the differences between "Reading the Bible" and "Experiencing the Bible".

I said: Show me this in scripture.

You answered: As I said, "It's not in the words, but in the "Spirit".

No scriptural explanation? It's not in the bible? You're telling me that you have your feelings as a guide as the word is insufficient?

Oh. I see. So when scripture doesn't actually say something that you need it to say to sustain your position, you say it under divine, extrabiblical revelation, right?

That's what you said echoed by Scott. Why do you attack us with your opinion on our companionship with the Holy Spirit? Can you not feel His presence in us?

Evidently, neither you or John have "Experienced" the "Holy Ghost" leading/teaching, or you would have "KNOWN" what I meant when I said: "Experienced".

You are still preaching what the Holy Spirit will do in you without scripture. LK 11:28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

john.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by johnp.:
LK 11:28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

john. [/QB]

"WHO/WHAT" is that "WORD OF GOD" we're suppose to "hear"??

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, (Holy Ghost)

Now read the verse again.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Me4Him.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, (Holy Ghost)

I don't really understand why the Holy Spirit should be constrained. Are you saying the words of Christ is the Holy Spirit? You do believe in the Trinity?

Now read the verse again.

Yes but first tell me which of the three verses you want me to read again please.


john.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Hello Me4Him.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, (Holy Ghost)

I don't really understand why the Holy Spirit should be constrained. Are you saying the words of Christ is the Holy Spirit? You do believe in the Trinity?

Now read the verse again.

Yes but first tell me which of the three verses you want me to read again please.


john. </font>[/QUOTE]The original verse you posted.

Don't you believe in the "Trinity"??

 

[johnp.]

Hello Me4Him.

I believe in the Trinity do you? Are you saying the words of Christ is the Holy Spirit?

john.

 

[David Mark]

Originally posted by Ben W:

Bottom line: It is important that we give Jesus first place and first love in our lives; He is to be Number 1. No spouse, child, parent, relative, or friend is to come before our relationship and love for Jesus.

Originally posted by Watchman:
The passage is clearly best rendered: "Israel I loved, Edom I loved less."

Makes sense to me.

Dave

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Hello Me4Him.

I believe in the Trinity do you? Are you saying the words of Christ is the Holy Spirit?

john.

Are you saying that you don't know the "Holy Ghost" is the "voice of Jesus" or "ghost of Jesus"??

 

[johnp.]

Hello Me4Him.

I believe in the Trinity do you? A simple yes or no will do.
I usually take pleasure in telling people what I believe so I have difficulty in understanding why you are evading the question. The only conclusion I can draw is that you do not believe in the Trinity. Is that right? Even if that is right I cannot understand why you should evade the question.

Are you saying that you don't know the "Holy Ghost" is the "voice of Jesus" or "ghost of Jesus"??

I have ask a question not made a statement so how do you draw any conclusion from a question?
Because you caused me to think your understanding of the Trinity was less than orthodox I asked you if you believed in the Trinity and you reply: "Are you saying that you don't know the "Holy Ghost" is the "voice of Jesus" or "ghost of Jesus"??"
Why don't you answer the question?


john.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Dave.

The passage is clearly best rendered: "Israel I loved, Edom I loved less."

Anything else need rewriting while we are at it Dave? Of course you have no authority to teach a lie by rewriting the scriptures to fit your belief. A belief that needs to do such things is worse than usless. There are serious consequences for those who practise this deception. Was Rachael the mother of Edom?

Rom 9:13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Scripture cannot be broken.

john.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by David Mark:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ben W:

Bottom line: It is important that we give Jesus first place and first love in our lives; He is to be Number 1. No spouse, child, parent, relative, or friend is to come before our relationship and love for Jesus.

Originally posted by Watchman:
The passage is clearly best rendered: "Israel I loved, Edom I loved less."

Makes sense to me.

Dave </font>[/QUOTE]That's the problem apparent in these arguments against calvinism... What "makes sense" to people with a unmerited high view of human goodness and will is accepted rather than what scripture actually says.

Romans 9 doesn't say that God loved Edom or Esau less... it says He hated.