Will ANY of God's Elect "Miss Heaven"?

[Dr. Bob]

ALL that the Father gives me WILL come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of him who sent Me.

And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose NONE of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I WILL raise him up on the last day.

 

[Amy.G]

No...................

 

[Dr. Bob]

Who shall separate us [the elect] from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

For I am certain that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[kyredneck]

From the BACON thread:

Paul taught that the elect could miss out on heaven.

Even Jesus revealed that some of the elect will end up in hell.

I suspect he might have meant that 'BACON' does not contain the correct formula required to attain eternal life, i.e., a false gospel that sends folks to hell. MHO.

 

[Iconoclast]

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews exhorts christians on the certainty of the biblical hope.

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

 

[Benjamin]

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:9-13)

And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
(1Jn 1:4-6)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Rom 10:9-11)

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(Eph 1:13)

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Israel is God's elect, yet 2/3 of Israel shall be cut of.

Korah, grandson of Levi was of God's elect, yet he along with his companions were swallowed up by the Earth for their rebellion.

So, the Bible does teach that some of God's elect will not enter heaven.

 

[Dr. Bob]

a "national" election is just that - of the nation en toto. Some within that "national" election may be individually elect; many are not.

All Israel did not go to heaven. Still today. Only those personally chosen for eternal life.

This "personal" election is what salvation is all about. And ALL go to heaven who are thus elect.

 

[Iconoclast]

Israel is God's elect, yet 2/3 of Israel shall be cut of.

Korah, grandson of Levi was of God's elect, yet he along with his companions were swallowed up by the Earth for their rebellion.

So, the Bible does teach that some of God's elect will not enter heaven.

SF,
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Benjamin]

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. *If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(1Jn 1:6-10)

*That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. *For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Rom 10:9-11)

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My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1Jn 2:1-2)

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I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
(1Jn 2:21-25)

That was the true Light, which lighteth every manthat cometh into the world.
(Joh 1:9)

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(Joh 1:11-12)

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
(1Jn 1:5)

 

[Benjamin]

a "national" election is just that - of the nation en toto. Some within that "national" election may be individually elect; many are not.

All Israel did not go to heaven. Still today. Only those personally chosen for eternal life.

This "personal" election is what salvation is all about. And ALL go to heaven who are thus elect.

Famous Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast:
"Dr. Bob carnal speculation down your throat.....but no one was interested:laugh::wavey: "

 

[Skandelon]

ALL that the Father gives me WILL come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of him who sent Me.

And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose NONE of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I WILL raise him up on the last day.

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."​

Bob, in John 6 Jesus is clearly addressing the people of Israel, who we know are being judicially hardened by God:

"For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." John 12:39​

This is the REASON they "COULD NOT BELIEVE." It wasn't because they were born 'totally depraved' as Calvinism falsely teaches. It was because "this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!" (Acts 28)

Can you see the CLEAR distinction Paul draws between the Jews and the Gentiles in this passage? In John 6, the people of Israel were not being drawn. They were being hardened (except for a remnant). That is the historical context in which that passage was written and yet Calvinists insist on reading it as a proof text to prop up their dogma.

 

[Herald]

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."​

Bob, in John 6 Jesus is clearly addressing the people of Israel, who we know are being judicially hardened by God...

Whoa! Really? We know from the text that Jesus is addressing a group of Jews, but in the macro is He really addressing just the people of Israel? Consider this:

John 6:35-40 35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

If Jesus was addressing just the people of Israel then there are promises in this passage that do not apply to us and we must disregard them. For instance, Jesus as the "bread of life" only applies to the people of Israel. The promise that "All that the Father give me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" only applies to the people of Israel. "that of all that He has given me I lose nothing" only applies to the people of Israel, not Gentiles. "Everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day" only applies to the people of Israel.

Point: we have to be careful about using context to exclude certain groups of people because that argument is two-edged sword. There are times when that is the correct interpretation of Scripture, but there are times when it's not.

 

[psalms109:31]

I know a Palestine that works at my job that that goes to a Messianic Jew Church and he told me Gentiles have been grafted in, what a joy to hear it from him.

It is a great appeal to believe you are the elect from the foundation of the world.

One day we might find out that it is the remnant that is being talked about and we gentiles are simply part of the grafting in and now treated as one of His own.

That the Jews who were disowned, cut out and who now no longer persist in their unbelief are simple being grafting back into something that they were already apart of in the first place but was cut out for unbelief.

 

[freeatlast]

ALL that the Father gives me WILL come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of him who sent Me.

And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose NONE of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day.For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I WILL raise him up on the last day.

No but at the same time the elect never depart so not all who claim to be in that number really are.
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's [fn] seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Famous Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast:
"Dr. Bob carnal speculation down your throat.....but no one was interested:laugh::wavey: "

It can only be used of you benjamin


benjamin= beenjamin carnal speculation...see it now:laugh:

Dr.Bob is using scripture as his base...not speculation.

 

[MB]

a "national" election is just that - of the nation en toto. Some within that "national" election may be individually elect; many are not.

All Israel did not go to heaven. Still today. Only those personally chosen for eternal life.

This "personal" election is what salvation is all about. And ALL go to heaven who are thus elect.

So where do you see in scripture a personal election of a Gentile?
MB

 

[Alive in Christ]

Will ANY of God's Elect "Miss Heaven"?

No. None of those who choose to place thier faith in Jesus Christ for eternal salvation will be lost.

 

[agedman]

No. None of those who choose to place thier faith in Jesus Christ for eternal salvation will be lost.

How does the unregenerate take what is not theirs to begin with and put it into what only God can do?

Man generated faith is incompatible with that faith in which God gives, for then it (man generated faith) would be as unstable as any other part of fallen man.

Therefore, saving faith can only come from God. Does not the Scriptures teach that He is the author and finisher of faith. How then is He the author if the faith comes from imperfection?

Perhaps that is why some think that if I have faith to believe, I can also loose salvation by no longer expressing that faith in belief.

 

[MB]

How does the unregenerate take what is not theirs to begin with and put it into what only God can do?

Man generated faith is incompatible with that faith in which God gives, for then it (man generated faith) would be as unstable as any other part of fallen man.

Therefore, saving faith can only come from God. Does not the Scriptures teach that He is the author and finisher of faith. How then is He the author if the faith comes from imperfection?

Perhaps that is why some think that if I have faith to believe, I can also loose salvation by no longer expressing that faith in belief.

Where do you get the idea that faith comes from men?. According to the scripture below it was dealt to every man by God.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

MB