Will ANY of God's Elect "Miss Heaven"?

[convicted1]

I don't.

I was reflecting upon the post that AIC made which he said, "None of those who choose to place thier (their) faith in Jesus Christ for eternal salvation will be lost."

I was, as you post, saying that the faith is not a human faith, but that which God through Christ authors and finishes.

Faith is a gift of God, I agree. However, once given to us, it is ours to exercise or reject. If I gave you fifty dollars, it was mine until after I placed it in your hands, and then it becomes yours. A gift can also be rejected, or abused, IMHO.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, I know, I should know better than to try to explain the merits of logical reasoning to Determinists, they obviously don't understand those values to begin with. It is a complete waste of time.

Hey Benjamin,
Why not wait until we request your explaining the merits of logical reasoning according to Benjamin.....don't call us..we will call you.:thumbs:

 

[agedman]

Faith is a gift of God, I agree. However, once given to us, it is ours to exercise or reject. If I gave you fifty dollars, it was mine until after I placed it in your hands, and then it becomes yours. A gift can also be rejected, or abused, IMHO.

Can you reject your living soul?

That is what God gave to Adam as a determiner to separate from all other matters of Creation.

The believer is a "new creature created in Christ Jesus" which separates the regenerate from the unregenerate, and that cannot be any more rejected than one can reject their living soul.

If God gives the gift, it is without repentance - that is man cannot "give it back."

Can it be abused? Certainly, and as Paul said, "that is why some of you are asleep (dead)."

There was an abuse of what the Lord established.

There are many Scriptures to warn against excess and abuse. "Do I sin that grace may abound? God forbid."

You did bring up a most important lesson.

What do I do with that "fifty dollars?"

Peter said, "add to your faith" and gave a series of stair step attributes that the believer is to attain.

Paul said, "be careful what you build upon that faith" and then talked of the judgment fire.

Jesus gave the parable of the servants each given an certain amount and each responsible for the care and growth of that amount.

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith without love makes me nothing and a faith without deeds is dead, can such a faith save you?

The gift of faith is not going to help you without those, love and deeds.

 

[agedman]

Faith without love makes me nothing and a faith without deeds is dead, can such a faith save you?

The gift of faith is not going to help you without those, love and deeds.

Very good.

James states that in showing faith in action is the only true faith.

Jesus said, "Does a man light a candle and hide it under a bushel?"

The believer has a belly full of living water that cannot help but flow, for Christ said, "shall flow rivers of living water."

 

[psalms109:31]

Very good.

James states that in showing faith in action is the only true faith.

Jesus said, "Does a man light a candle and hide it under a bushel?"

The believer has a belly full of living water that cannot help but flow, for Christ said, "shall flow rivers of living water."

The living water the words of life comes from His word that should be coming out of those who believe. We must live by every word that comes from the mouth of God. We have no life in us without His word. This why we are to drink and eat of Him so that He will come out of our pores. Since we are giving the Holy Spirit born again by His words

 

[humblethinker]

ALL that the Father gives me WILL come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of him who sent Me.

And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose NONE of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I WILL raise him up on the last day.

Nowhere in the text you referenced does being "drawn" equate to being "given". Barry Creamer continues this thought by saying, (the article here linked uses Sentential Logic so I've just pasted some of the narrated points)

"Indeed, it is the whole point of the question in hand. If being drawn to Jesus by the Father is the same as having been given by the Father to Jesus, then of course grace is irresistible. But nothing implies that equivalence. In fact, as the next section argues, the intent of the text is not to equate being given with being drawn, but rather to make clear that the essential ingredient of coming to Jesus which is missing in the audience is not D (being drawn), but F (believing); that is, faith is the difference between being drawn and being given.

So do the logical relationships in John 6 lead to the doctrine of irresistible grace?

No.

and concludes with this:

At the core of the passage is the truth that Jesus’ presence in the world is the Father’s act to teach everyone, with the result that those who hear and learn (have faith) come to Jesus, and that Jesus secure the eternal life of everyone who comes to Him.

While this very brief exposition of John 6 is at least catawampus to the doctrine of irresistible grace, it is not the argument here that irresistible grace is disproved in it.

The point here is to discover whether John 6 teaches the doctrine of irresistible grace. So does it?

No.

While all that come are obviously drawn, not all that are drawn are given. That is to say that there are some that are drawn that are not given since not all drawn believe. Those drawn have the opportunity to believe and upon believing are then given. Now your OP makes perfect sense.

 

[agedman]

The living water the words of life comes from His word that should be coming out of those who believe. We must live by every word that comes from the mouth of God. We have no life in us without His word. This why we are to drink and eat of Him so that He will come out of our pores. Since we are giving the Holy Spirit born again by His words

I agree.

The Scriptures state that, "Thy Word have I hid in my heart" inward action "That I might not sin against thee." (outward walk).

Again, "Thy Word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my path."

Of the work of the Holy Spirit, the Scriptures state, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

 

[MB]

You are correct (in my opinion) that in the original it is a typical if/then statement such as if this then that.

In application, if the Word was already in the heart and in the mouth, then response is automatic. If the Word was not already in the heart and mouth, then the response may be human generated words (pray this prayer after me). Such is the case of those who may be of shallow dirt who sprout acceptably in the short term but have no real root.

I see nothing automatic about it at all. The man must still place his own belief in to action that is the verb of belief called faith, Sometimes hope, or trust. At any rate faith is actually the action of our belief and while we may be influenced towards the goal of Salvation with out the action of faith there can be no Grace as in Eph 2:8 The Bible says many hold the truth in unrighteousness. Rom 1:18. I held the truth in unrighteousness and would not submit for a long time. Those words in my mouth we are speaking about were anything but automatic.

I would present this line of thinking that may show that both of us are actually stating the same line of reasoning.

Using your own testimony, above, you mentioned that the word was followed by conviction and that brought about confession. That is so neat!!! It follows the pattern of Paul.

The Scriptures say that Paul was struck down and heard, "How long will you kick..." He apparently had been "kicking" (under conviction) for some time, and that is as you confessed. There was no change in Paul until he surrendered, "Lord what would you ..." Just as it was in your conversion. Paul submitted to the Lord Jesus, and so did you.

So it must be with every born again Christian

The unregenerate has no particular concern for the things of God, but you did, and the press of conviction mounted with each exposure to the Word. Therefore, it would follow that you were already were carrying at least the conception of regeneration; that the birthing would take place just as Scriptures state in Philippians 1:

The Lost can only concern them selves with what they know and the Knowing of the gospel is available through preaching, and the Word. For instance if man could not hear or understand the gospel no one could be saved. Like I said before, If there is no faith there can be no Grace with which to be saved. Being saved is regeneration.

There are those who do not agree with a "pre-faith" (I call it pre-birth) regeneration; I contend that it is impossible for the unregenerate to even respond to the Scriptures and Holy Spirit. The Scriptures state as you know, that it is impossible for the unregenerate to respond more than with "sorrow of this world" without some regenerative work to awakened the person to even sense Godly conviction.

Yes there is and I’m one of them that does not agree with pre-faith regeneration. I do not believe anyone has ever been regenerated before faith. The Bible is clear that for Salvation to occur the person must have faith in which Grace can be given through to bring regeneration about. Regeneration is the act of God that saves us.

We are saved by God’s grace through faith there simply is nothing I have ever read in scripture that would ever make think otherwise
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

ALL that the Father gives me WILL come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of him who sent Me.

And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose NONE of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I WILL raise him up on the last day.

Doesn't Arminian theology, in some regards, make God election for ALL, as jesus died for ALL,its just up to us to accept/reject that calling from God, by our free will?

 

[Skandelon]

Whoa! Really? We know from the text that Jesus is addressing a group of Jews, but in the macro is He really addressing just the people of Israel?

I'm not saying that his words don't apply to us all, for indeed they do. No one, and I mean no one can come to Christ until they are invited. How can they believe in the one whom they have not heard? (ref to Rm. 10)

You must be invited to come to the party, right? Well, that is just it. The Jews are being blinded from understanding the invitation, so they aren't being DRAWN. And Jesus, in John 6, is addressing Jews...those being blinded. The Gentiles aren't taken the message until after Peter has his white sheet dream and Paul is commissioned to go to them, remember?

Understanding the historical context of a passage is hermeneutics 101.

If Jesus was addressing just the people of Israel then there are promises in this passage that do not apply to us and we must disregard them. For instance, Jesus as the "bread of life" only applies to the people of Israel.

Incorrect. You are not understanding my argument. I'm not saying the truths that Christ revealed are relative or only applicable to the Jews. I'm saying that his words must be understood from the context they are being spoken and when the majority of the people at that time are being blinded by God, given a 'spirit of stupor' and being taught in parables so they won't repent and be healed, that is kind of an important piece of information, don't you think?

God is temporarily blinding Israel from the gospel truth so as to accomplish redemption for the world. That is what Romans 11 is all about and it is being played out for us in the gospel of John.

 

[Alive in Christ]

What a bunch of useless verbiage. :laugh:

Benjamins post was actually quite articulate, and made good sense.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Aged man...

Can you demonstrate from history or the Bible that any "free will choice" man made from the fall until now has not ended in corruption.

Easilly

Back about 30 years ago my life was a train wreck in progress.

After a period of drawing and conviction, I came to my senses and surrendred myself to God and placed my faith in Christ.

I made that decision. God did not put me in a trance, and when I woke up I discovered, to my complete suprise that I was a different person.

No. I made that dicision. I was standing in the proverbial "valley of decision"..and I chose Christ.

And multiplied millions have made that same free will choice.

I made the decision to embrace Christ. Trust me, I was there when it happened.

My life since then has been a complete "180"

And all the praise goes to God Almighty, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus. None for me...I was just a miserable sinner asking for mercy.

 

[Skandelon]

Benjamins post was actually quite articulate, and made good sense.

True. Interesting to me how when one converts to Calvinism they automatically start acting more...well...you know...

Maybe its just my bias, but I don't remember her speaking this way to Calvinists back when she wasn't one...maybe its a fruit of Calvinism?

 

[convicted1]

Doesn't Arminian theology, in some regards, make God election for ALL, as jesus died for ALL,its just up to us to accept/reject that calling from God, by our free will?

Look back to Exodus 12 and Leviticus 16. God made an atonement for all of Israel corportately, the lamb or goat(in Exodus 12), and the scapegoat in Leviticus 16. This atonement was made for ALL of Israel, yet many did not enter in due to their lack of belief(unbelief)(Hebrews 3), and not for the lack of an atonement. Same way today. Many die and perish due to their lack of belief, and not for a lack of an atonement.

 

[Iconoclast]

Skandelon;

True. Interesting to me how when one converts to Calvinism they automatically start acting more...well...you know

...

Yes,we know....the words you are struggling for are ......acting more full of wisdom and biblical discernment . Then they know the falsehood more readily and easily dismiss it.:thumbsup:

Maybe its just my bias, but I don't remember her speaking this way to Calvinists back when she wasn't one...maybe its a fruit of Calvinism?

That is because calvinists do not post that which is to be rejected as they enjoy scripture over carnal reasoning.They seek biblical solutions to lifes questions:wavey: Your bias might influence your thought however:applause:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclst posted, regarding calvinists...

Yes,we know....the words you are struggling for are ......acting more full of wisdom and biblical discernment . Then they know the falsehood more readily and easily dismiss it.

ha!

There he is, Good ole Icon. "Mr Humility" himself, in all his glory.

Goodness, he practically revels" in his conceit.

 

[Skandelon]

Even John Piper recognizes the TENDENCY of those who call themselves Calvinistic:

"I love the doctrines of grace with all my heart, and I think they are pride-shattering, humbling, and love-producing doctrines. But I think there is an attractiveness about them to some people, in large matter, because of their intellectual rigor. They are powerfully coherent doctrines, and certain kinds of minds are drawn to that. And those kinds of minds tend to be argumentative.

So the intellectual appeal of the system of Calvinism draws a certain kind of intellectual person, and that type of person doesn't tend to be the most warm, fuzzy, and tender. Therefore this type of person has a greater danger of being hostile, gruff, abrupt, insensitive or intellectualistic.

I'll just confess that. It's a sad and terrible thing that that's the case. Some of this type aren't even Christians, I think. You can embrace a system of theology and not even be born again."

- John Piper

I like the part about the 'intellectual appeal.'

 

[Alive in Christ]

Scandelon...

So the intellectual appeal of the system of Calvinism draws a certain kind of intellectual person, and that type of person doesn't tend to be the most warm, fuzzy, and tender. Therefore this type of person has a greater danger of being hostile, gruff, abrupt, insensitive or intellectualistic.

In other words, lacking greatly regarding the fruit and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

And I tend to disagree regarding what appears to be your speculation regarding calvinists being more "intellectual". In my 30 years as a christian, I have not noticed any difference in that area.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclst posted, regarding calvinists...




ha!

There he is, Good ole Icon. "Mr Humility" himself, in all his glory.

Goodness, he practically revels" in his conceit.

AIC,

It is flattering that you spend so much time being concerned about me,and judging my level of spiritual fruit. That time would be better spent reading a bible or a good solid study book by a puritan so you can learn more about what you do not understand now.
Then you could enter in to the biblically based discussions rather than this ongoing obsession with making these sanctimonious judgements:wavey::laugh::wavey: