Will Catholics Be "Left Behind"?

[Ray Berrian]

3AngelsMom,

I graduated from an evangelical seminary in the northeast. We had a cults class along with a Christian text. The four major cults were: Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons/Latter Day Saints/, Christian Science, and last or firstly if you prefer, Seventh Day Adventists.

In your defense I would say that I think the Adventists are probably the closes to Christian orthodoxy in relation to the other three cults. I do think there are some 'born again' believers in your denomination, but some other doctrines are in error.

Get yourself a translation. When a Christian dies he or she goes directly to Heaven. Heaven is where Jesus is seated at the right hand of God on high. Again, read II Corinthians 5:8 & Philippians 1:23] I think even one of your 'angels' can explain this elementary truth to you and yours.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Jesus DID NOT go to Paradise 'today'.

What did He say to Mary at the tomb when she tried to 'cling' to Him?

Where had He NOT gone?

This doesn't require mental gymnastics, all it requires is simple logic and reasoning. Think for yourselves.

God Bless,
Kelly

So you prefer to believe your own hellish doctrine over what the Bible plainly says. Today thou shalt be with me in paradise, is what Jesus said. It is a very plain statement both in Greek and in English, and in a number of translations in English and in many other languages. The evidence against your word is overwhelming. There is no reason for anyone to believe you, when virtually every Greek scholar and commentary says otherwise.

Eph.4:8-10
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Jesus descended into into the lower parts of the earth (where Paradise was, and all the Old Testament saints were). He led captivity captive. He led all those Old Testament saints from Paradise into Heaven. And that included the thief that died on the cross.
"He that descended (into paradise) is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens."

Do you not remember what he said to Mary: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father."

There is no such thing as soul sleep. It is a damnable heresy. It denies the Bible: "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"
"For me to live is Christ, to die is gain."
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
Eph.4:8-10
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Jesus descended into into the lower parts of the earth (where Paradise was, and all the Old Testament saints were). He led captivity captive. He led all those Old Testament saints from Paradise into Heaven. And that included the thief that died on the cross.
"He that descended (into paradise) is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens."

Do you not remember what he said to Mary: "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father."

So then on which DAY did He 'ascend' into HEAVEN? Did Jesus not say, TODAY? When did He ascend? This is really quite simple, why do you complicate it? Jesus told the theif He was going to Paradise, WITH JESUS. WHEN did Jesus GO?????

TODAY??

Paradise was NOT, I repeat, NOT in the 'middle of the earth'. YOU ARE WRONG. Your 'scholars' are WRONG. Your 'commentaries' are WRONG!!!

Paradise:
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Where did he go? UP. Where is the Tree of Life? HEAVEN. Paradise=Heaven. Always has, always will. It was NEVER in the 'middle of the earth'.

HEAVEN was there LONG before the earth was!

When did Jesus 'ascend'? The Bible says AFTER He decended. The Bible says He told Mary HE HAD NOT ASCENDED YET. That was on the THIRD DAY from when He told the theif 'TODAY'.

LOGIC.

There is no such thing as soul sleep. It is a damnable heresy. It denies the Bible: "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"
"For me to live is Christ, to die is gain."
DHK

RIGHT, that's why the WORD OF GOD says all this about death:

Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
1Ki 1:21 Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.
Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Psa 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Act 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Act 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

NOW, that is 15. And I didn't even look very hard.

You had what? TWO!

And you want to try and tell me my belief that the Bible calls DEATH a 'sleep' is a 'damnable heresy'???

At least my beliefs are TOTALLY backed by scripture!

What kind of fools do you take us all for DHK?

Commentary reading, scholar obeying, pastor trusting FOOLS?????

NOT SO.

Ever heard of the term SOLA SCRIPTURA????

Has a nice ring to it doesn't it?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[faithcontender]

Hi 3Angelsmom,

What do you mean by soul asleep? Do you mean the body is the same as the soul? Do you believe that the soul is different from the body?

 

[BobRyan]

Carson said --
Because, if your denomination teaches soul-sleep, you are bound to bend over backwards to defend it, even at the expense of sound exegesis arrived at through the literal-historical interpretation of Scripture.

Hey wait a minute! That is my argument!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

A true word of prophecy from Edmonton, B.C.

 

[BobRyan]

There are only 3 texts in the NT dealing with Paradise directly plus one with one-level of indirection.

In Luke 23 the request is made "Remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom" and the direct answer to that direct request is "Verily I say to you today you Shall be with Me in Paradise".

(I leave out the punctuation so you may arrange the punctuation to fit your preference)

2Cor 12:2-4 tells us explicitly that Paradise is in what Paul calls "The Third Heaven".

Rev 2:7 tells us that Paradise holds the Tree of Life.

(And Rev 21 tells us that the Throne of God and the Tree of Life are in the same place)

So we have the following
#1. Third Heaven is where Paradise Is.

#2. In Paradise we have the Tree of Life and the Throne of God.

#3. And in Luke 23 we find that the thief hoped to be WITH Christ (resurrected)"When Christ comes into His Kingdom)".

Of course John 20 tells us that Christ had not ascended to the Throne of God as of that Sunday.


Some theories find a way to slap wheels on Paradise and scoot it all around the cosmos trying to get their doctrine to "add up".

Which I personally find fascinating.

But since we only have 3 direct texts in the NT that address it and the first one connects it with "Christ coming into His kingdom" and the second with "3 Third Heaven" and the fourth with "The Tree of Life" - going beyond that and scooting it around (as We need it to move) is probably error prone.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

Eph.4:8-10
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

So then on which DAY did He 'ascend' into HEAVEN? Did Jesus not say, TODAY? When did He ascend? This is really quite simple, why do you complicate it? Jesus told the theif He was going to Paradise, WITH JESUS. WHEN did Jesus GO?????

TODAY??

Paradise was NOT, I repeat, NOT in the 'middle of the earth'. YOU ARE WRONG. Your 'scholars' are WRONG. Your 'commentaries' are WRONG!!!

No you are wrong for making unfounded assumptions. Look again at Eph.4:8-10, which I left at the top of this post. Here is verse 9 again:

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Christ ascended. But first he descended. I don't say that. The Bible says that. It tells us that he descended and ascended. If you have a quarrel with that take it up with God.
Now we know that he ascended up into HEAVEN. To "descend into the lower parts of the earth" could mean simply the "grave" where he was buried, or simply "this earth" as contrasted to Heaven, or it could be referring to the place that is referred to as Hades or Sheol--the place of the departed dead. In the Psalms it is written: "He that hath ascended on high.." Obviously for one to ascend on high, he would have had to descend first.

No one, and I repeat no one, said anything about paradise being in the middle of the earth. Now if you want to hunt for it, and dig a tunnel from here to China you go right ahead. The more power to you. I never even conjectured such a thing. No slanderous accusations please, especially in ALL capital letters: "YOU ARE WRONG" I couldn't be wrong if I never said it, could I.

I do not conjecture on things that the Bible is completely silent about. Where Paradise is, I don't know. Where Sheol or Hades is, I don't know. I never said I did. I never once implied that it was in the center of the earth. Have we got that straight yet.

Now what did Jesus say to the thief.
He said: "Today you shall be with me in Paradise." I don't know where Paradise is, and I don't have to know where it is. But this one thing I do know--the thief is with Jesus in Heaven, and before that he went to Paradise on the very day that Jesus said he would.
Now if you prefer to call Jesus a liar, so be it. You will give account of yourself in the day of judgement.

Paradise:
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the ]paradise of God.

Where did he go? UP. Where is the Tree of Life? HEAVEN. Paradise=Heaven. Always has, always will. It was NEVER in the 'middle of the earth'.

I never said it was in the middle of the earth, though you can look there if you want to. And paradise is different than heaven.

HEAVEN was there LONG before the earth was!

I never said it wasn't.

When did Jesus 'ascend'? The Bible says AFTER He decended. The Bible says He told Mary HE HAD NOT ASCENDED YET. That was on the THIRD DAY from when He told the theif 'TODAY'.
LOGIC.

1Pet.3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
--Wherever Paradise may be, Christ went (and the thief also) and preached unto the spirits in prison. This no doubt was the other compartment that we know as Hell where the unsaved were and are. He proclaimed his victory there. The thief went to Paradise, where the Old Testament saints were. Then Jesus came and took those saints and led them out of that Paradise (captivity) and into Heaven. It was at that time he "ascended to His Father" on the third day. Remember Heaven and paradise are not the same thing.

There is no such thing as soul sleep. It is a damnable heresy. It denies the Bible: "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"
"For me to live is Christ, to die is gain."
DHK

RIGHT, that's why the WORD OF GOD says all this about death:

The Word of God much of the time, but not always, uses sleep as a synonym for death. I'll give you one example to think about.

1Cor.11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
--The context here is the abuse of the Lord's Table. For this reason God had judged some of them. What was the judgement. Some of them were physically weak, some physically sick, and some were dead. The word sleep meant physically dead. Their spirit was in Heaven, safe with Jesus. Their bodies were six feet under so to speak. God killed them, as a judgement. He didn't kill the spirit. The spirit went to Heaven, to be with Jesus. He killed the body. The body died, and they buried it. You don't bury a spirit.
DHK

 

[CatholicConvert]

Attention all --

Been away for a week with a puter that went up in SMOKE. Back now. Need to clear up something.

My understanding of Christ's return taking place in AD 70 is NOT the official position of the Catholic Faith.

Carson may correct me (and I hope he does if I am incorrect) but as I understand it, there is no defined eschatological position within the Catholic Faith other than to believe that Christ will come in the future for the bodily resurrection and the end of chronological time. One can be post mil, amil, or preterist and still hold to this truth, which we express each Sunday in the Nicene Creed.

My position (let me say this loud and clear) IS NOT THE OFFICIAL POSITION OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH NOR DOES IT REPRESENT ANY CATHOLIC OFFICIAL TEACHING

Got it?

One of Carson's professors, a Scott Hahn by name, is a preterist eschatologically. I believe that Brother Hahn stated once that he was and could be a preterist because there is no set position one is required to take other than not denying the final coming of our Lord.

Okay. Thanks.

Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,

Brother Ed

 

[tyndale1946]

Interesting conversation... I'm partial preterist myself... What are you going to do with this passage that clearly states Jesus was talking to the Apostles?

Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall have not gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Why would he instruct them in something that wasn't going to happen for 2,000 plus years?... Also when he was resurrected many saints that slept arose... After forty days he ascended in a cloud... Could it have been a cloud of resurrected saints?... I guess we could say raptured saint if not where did they go to?... Back in the graves they came from?... Did they have to die again since all men are appointed once to die?... You think maybe this is the time Lazarus made his departure? Juggle these questions I'm sure you all can come up with some answers ... Brother Glen

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
[QB] 3AngelsMom,

I graduated from an evangelical seminary in the northeast. We had a cults class along with a Christian text. The four major cults were: Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons/Latter Day Saints/, Christian Science, and last or firstly if you prefer, Seventh Day Adventists.

Last I checked even the Pope says that the SDA Church is orthodox and not considered a cult anymore. Ever since they accepted the Trinity doctrine, the 'cult' label has come off. When did you go to seminary?

In your defense I would say that I think the Adventists are probably the closes to Christian orthodoxy in relation to the other three cults. I do think there are some 'born again' believers in your denomination, but some other doctrines are in error.

I appreciate that! I, however am not a modern SDA. I am actually considered a "Historic Seventh Day Adventist". So MY 'sect' of the SDA denomination would NOT be considered orthodox by the CC, or other denominations.

Get yourself a translation.

What exactly do you mean by that? I have a literal translation, a copy in the original Greek/ Hebrew, the KJV, the NKJV, the NASB, the Living Bible, and the NIV. Which translation do you mean?

When a Christian dies he or she goes directly to Heaven.

What evidence do you have of that? Have you been there? I mean, seriously, what solid evidence from Scripture do you have that states that the MOMENT, in literal, earth dementional time, a person dies, 'they' go directly to heaven?

Heaven is where Jesus is seated at the right hand of God on high.

That's a given, but that DOES NOT mean that we go to Him the moment, again, in earths dementional time, that we die. To be absent from this body of sin, is when we will be present with Jesus. What we need to ascertain is WHEN we will be absent from this body of sin. According to the Bible, we WILL NOT leave this body of sin until Jesus returns and we are changed from mortal to immortal, and corruptable to incorruptable. The Bible says that corruption cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, and it is clear that we will not recieve immortality and incorruption UNTIL the Resurrection.

Again, read II Corinthians 5:8 & Philippians 1:23

Let's take a look:
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
There is no disagreement between this verse and the doctrine of soul sleep. When we are resurrected on the Last Day, and are given new bodies, we will be instantaneously 'translated' from this body of sin, that is mortal and corruptable, into a body that is immortal, without sin, and incorruptable. So in effect, we will, be immediately absent from our bodies and present with the Lord in the air. We will THEN be with the Lord forever. Which is exactly what the Bible says will happen. There is no evidence that we leave our bodies, as a spirit, and go to heaven, and then after the time has past to the appointment for Christ to return, be reinserted into our bodies in the grave and then translated. That doesn't fit with the whole of Scripture.
Next:
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
At first glance I would say that this verse settles it! He desires to 'depart and be with Christ'. That would do it for me, if it wasn't for the pile of Scripture that tells me that we will not be capable of entering heaven until Christ returns and awakens all the dead in Christ. We cannot enter heaven with Christ until He redeems us, changes us and makes us able to enter heaven.

This isn't a strange concept. In all actuality your idea of going straight to heaven after death and my idea of awaiting the resurrection are exactly the SAME. Those who believe in soul sleep all agree that the 'time' we spend 'waiting' for Jesus will be an unconscious sleep and we will not know that we are waiting. We will close our eyes in death and similtaneously open our eyes to new Life everlasting! We will all get paid on the same day and time regardless of how long we labored. You know that parable? The one about the laborors who one, worked from the break of day, until sundown, another who worked from midday to sundown, and the last who started just before the day ended. ALL of them were payed the same wage (eternal life) and ALL of them were payed at the same time (the Last Day). For that parable to work with the doctrine of immediate reward (what you believe) you would have to change the parable to say "one man started at day break, finished at sundown and was paid, another man started at day break and finished at noon, and was paid, and the other started at day break but finished half way between start and lunch, and was paid, all of them were payed the same wage, at the time they finished." But there is a problem, which you must see, because the parable DOES NOT read like that!

I think even one of your 'angels' can explain this elementary truth to you and yours.

Ok, firstly though you are going to have to explain what exactly you mean by that! My 'angels' are my three little boys, who last I checked were only 5,6, and 8 and couldn't explain how the toilet works let along what happens when we die! Please clarify what you mean!

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by faithcontender:
Hi 3Angelsmom,

What do you mean by soul asleep? Do you mean the body is the same as the soul? Do you believe that the soul is different from the body?

Soul Sleep:
At death a person's 'breath of life' or 'spirit' returns to God who gave it, that same spirit which animates animals and all living things. They 'sleep' in the grave awaiting the first or second resurrection, unconscious, without thought. At the Second Coming of Christ, the dead in Christ will awaken to immortality and everlasting life, and then after the 1000 years the wicked will be raised, judged, and then destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

Soul:
The dust of the earth (or elements of the earth, carbon, water, etc.) mixed with the Breath of Life from God (Spirit) make a living Soul. Dust+Breath= Living Soul. This equation is given when God created the first man. A soul is NOT something that is separate from your body. It does not leave your body at death. This is pagan mythology. A soul is the combination of the elements and the Breath from God. Nothing more, nothing less.

Your body, as a living, breathing soul will die one day, and cease to breath the breath of life. When that happens, you will then be a dead soul. That non living, non breathing soul will sleep awaiting the resurrection.

Hope that explains it for you!

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[3AngelsMom]

DHK,

Your last post was hilarious. Are you getting senile? You say you DID NOT say that Paradise is in the middle of the earth? What is this then?

Originally posted by DHK:
Jesus descended into into the lower parts of the earth (where Paradise was, and all the Old Testament saints were). He led captivity captive. He led all those Old Testament saints from Paradise into Heaven. And that included the thief that died on the cross.
"He that descended (into paradise) is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens."

You said 'lower parts of the earth, where Paradise was'!

What exactly did you mean by that, if it doesn't mean that you think Paradise used to be in the center of the earth??????

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
Eph.4:8-10
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Note the order here:
1. He descended into the lower parts of the earth (grave). He went there WHEN HE DIED. Meaning, when He was dead, He was in the lower parts of the earth, just as every other man who dies GOES to the lower parts of the earth when they die. About 6 feet lower! SIMPLE.
2. He ascended up on high and did TWO things, LED
'Captivity' captive (took it prisoner, if you will) and gave gifts to men. What men? Who or what is 'captivity' that He could take it captive?

You said in your other post:

Jesus descended into into the lower parts of the earth (where Paradise was, and all the Old Testament saints were). He led captivity captive. He led all those Old Testament saints from Paradise into Heaven. And that included the thief that died on the cross.
"He that descended (into paradise) is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens."

That verse doesn't say that AT ALL. It said that He led 'captivity' CAPTIVE. He TOOK captive "captivity". WHAT is captivity???? What 'gift' did He give to men????? You are adding stuff to this verse, and not even catching the amazing information it has in it!

No you are wrong for making unfounded assumptions. Look again at Eph.4:8-10, which I left at the top of this post. Here is verse 9 again:

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Christ ascended. But first he descended. I don't say that. The Bible says that. It tells us that he descended and ascended. If you have a quarrel with that take it up with God.

What are you talking about? I never said that He didn't! What unfounded assumptions am I making?

Now we know that he ascended up into HEAVEN. To "descend into the lower parts of the earth" could mean simply the "grave" where he was buried, or simply "this earth" as contrasted to Heaven, or it could be referring to the place that is referred to as Hades or Sheol--the place of the departed dead. In the Psalms it is written: "He that hath ascended on high.." Obviously for one to ascend on high, he would have had to descend first.

Since we have our speculation hats on, it could also simply mean that He ascended into the the lower parts of the earth when He was born here. The upper parts of the earth could be just the sky, or 'first heaven'. When He was born here, that would be when He descended to the 'lower parts' or where we are. Just a thought. I like the 'grave' speculation best though. Because He did 'descend' to the lower (lower than the surface) and THEN did something miraculous, ASCEND from that place. Something surely worth mentioning!

No one, and I repeat no one, said anything about paradise being in the middle of the earth. Now if you want to hunt for it, and dig a tunnel from here to China you go right ahead. The more power to you. I never even conjectured such a thing. No slanderous accusations please, especially in ALL capital letters: "YOU ARE WRONG" I couldn't be wrong if I never said it, could I.

But you could be a little senile, eh? I pointed out in my last post to you that you DID indeed refer to the 'lower parts' of the earth as being where Paridise once was. There is no way that it could exist in the 'lower parts' of the earth without it being somewhere near the 'middle'.

I do not conjecture on things that the Bible is completely silent about. Where Paradise is, I don't know.

Ok, so which fantom drifter posted that you thinik Paradise was in the Lower parts of the earth?

Where Sheol or Hades is, I don't know. I never said I did.

And unless I am mistaken, I didn't say you did. But now that you bring it up, the Bible, and most of the world, is quite clear on where the 'grave' is.

I never once implied that it was in the center of the earth. Have we got that straight yet.

You seem to, but you don't seem to remember saying you think Paradise was in the lower parts of the earth. You DID imply it.

 

[3AngelsMom]

....continued

Originally posted by DHK:

Now what did Jesus say to the thief.
He said: "Today you shall be with me in Paradise." I don't know where Paradise is, and I don't have to know where it is. But this one thing I do know--the thief is with Jesus in Heaven, and before that he went to Paradise on the very day that Jesus said he would.

And WHEN was that? Jesus DID NOT SAY that the theif would go to Paradise on the day that He died. You can twist and contort all you want, but the verse DOES NOT SAY that the theif went to Paradise on that 'today'. However, it DOES say that Jesus responded to a request! The theif asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His Kingdom! We can ACCURATELY determine when the theif went to Paradise by ACCURATELY determining when Jesus 'came into His Kingdom'! That is answered by the Bible!

Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

When is Jesus coming into His Kingdom? When we see Him coming in the Clouds.

Which is WHEN the theif will be resurrected and be with Jesus, IN HIS KINGDOM.

Now if you prefer to call Jesus a liar, so be it. You will give account of yourself in the day of judgement.

Are you sure of that? Don't you mean 'when I die'? Oh wait! That's right, you can't deny that we are judged, but you can deny that we are all judged together. I can honestly say that you are the worst pastor I have ever encountered. Do you talk to your flock like that? Those poor people.

paradise is different than heaven.

How can you read those 3 verses, that are the ONLY Biblical referece to Paradise and STILL cling to your false assumptions? Paradise is IN the third heaven. Paradise is where the Tree of Life is. The Tree of Life is where the Father is, and where Jesus went! You do the math!

1Pet.3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
--Wherever Paradise may be, Christ went (and the thief also) and preached unto the spirits in prison. This no doubt was the other compartment that we know as Hell where the unsaved were and are. He proclaimed his victory there. The thief went to Paradise, where the Old Testament saints were. Then Jesus came and took those saints and led them out of that Paradise (captivity) and into Heaven. It was at that time he "ascended to His Father" on the third day. Remember Heaven and paradise are not the same thing.

What I remember is reading this funk when I was learning about Greek Mythology in high school. This is nothing more than 'baptized paganism'. FUNK. Paradise is in Heaven. Hell is the grave. The dead have not been rewarded yet. That won't happen until the resurrection. WHY would Jesus BRING His reward WITH HIM, if the 'dead' saints have already been in heaven?

The Word of God much of the time, but not always, uses sleep as a synonym for death.

What does synonym mean to you? I'll let you answer that before I respond to your statement.

I'll give you one example to think about.

1Cor.11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

That's one of the verses I GAVE. Did you even read them? Or do you prefer to live in your cloak of tradition?

--The context here is the abuse of the Lord's Table. For this reason God had judged some of them. What was the judgement. Some of them were physically weak, some physically sick, and some were dead. The word sleep meant physically dead. Their spirit was in Heaven, safe with Jesus.

Where does it say that? The word sleep means dead. NOT just physically. There is absolutely no evidence, what so ever, that they died physically and lived on immortally in the spirit. NONE. That is MORE Greek Mythology.

Their bodies were six feet under so to speak. God killed them, as a judgement. He didn't kill the spirit.

Of course He didn't. The Spirit went back to God, who gave it. That same spirit that animates all living things. Horses, dogs, lions, and YOU.

The spirit went to Heaven, to be with Jesus. He killed the body. The body died, and they buried it. You don't bury a spirit.

The spirit went back to God, just as the Bible says. The PERSON is dead. They are in the grave, awaiting the resurrection.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Note that it doesn't say 'some people's spirit' go back to God. ALL men, at death 'lose' the 'breath of life' which is the 'spirit'. It returns to God, who gave it. ALL MEN.

The dust of all men returns to the earth.
The spirit of ALL MEN return to God who gave it.

Now, either ALL MEN go to heaven in spirit form, or ALL MEN await the resurrection, SLEEPING.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[Ray Berrian]

3AngelsMom,

I thought your children might have been junior high school age. I meant that anyone this age could readily understand that God though the Apostle Paul wanted us to know that when we die, we don't have to wait until a future judgment day to be with God in His most holy Presence. Why would we have to wait for judgment day? He has already said if we believe in Jesus we will not ever come into a judgment that will send us off to Hell. [John 3:18a]

I meant take any translation and read it about II Corinthians 5:6 & 8; Philippians 1:23 and you should spiritually understand that when our spirit leaves our body, we are ushered into the Presence of the Lord in Heaven.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
3AngelsMom,

I thought your children might have been junior high school age. I meant that anyone this age could readily understand that God though the Apostle Paul wanted us to know that when we die, we don't have to wait until a future judgment day to be with God in His most holy Presence. Why would we have to wait for judgment day? He has already said if we believe in Jesus we will not ever come into a judgment that will send us off to Hell. [John 3:18a]

I meant take any translation and read it about II Corinthians 5:6 & 8; Philippians 1:23 and you should spiritually understand that when our spirit leaves our body, we are ushered into the Presence of the Lord in Heaven.

Our lines got crossed somewhere!

I don't believe that I must face judgment first! I believe, and I thought I explained it enough so that 'even a child' would understand.

I will die.

I will wake up in the resurrection.

Closed eyes.........

BAM!!!!!!!!!

Opened eyes.

With Jesus for all eternity!

There is no quandry here.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[DHK]

Since we have our speculation hats on, it could also simply mean that He ascended into the the lower parts of the earth when He was born here. The upper parts of the earth could be just the sky, or 'first heaven'. When He was born here, that would be when He descended to the 'lower parts' or where we are. Just a thought. I like the 'grave' speculation best though. Because He did 'descend' to the lower (lower than the surface) and THEN did something miraculous, ASCEND from that place. Something surely worth mentioning!

The Bible is silent on the location of Sheol (i.e. Hades, Paradise, Hell,). It would be as futile to look for Hell as it would be for Heaven. The Bible uses much of the time figurative language. Just as we don’t know where Heaven is we don’t know where Hell is, even though the phrase “lower parts of the earth is used. Consider what David said:

Psalm 139:7-10
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

David speaks of the omnipresence of God. He cannot escape the presence of God. Not in heaven; not in Hell; not in the sea. To the casual reader God doesn’t dwell in Hell, so why would David say that? He simply emphasizing the omnipresence of God, and that is all.

Where is Hell? No one knows.
As for Eph.4:9, let’s go with your interpretation then. From the lower parts of the earth (the actual grave that he was buried in) he ascended up on high (a fulfilled prophecy from the Old Testament).

It is clear from Eph.4:8, that when he did ascend up into Heaven on the third day, that he “led captivity captive,” an expression speaking of leading the Old Testament saints from the Paradise (that part of Sheol that He had been to) to Heaven. He had proclaimed his victory. He had preached to the spirits in prison. And led the saints from Paradise to Heaven. Lazarus was not dead, but in Paradise, with Abraham. The rich man was not dead, but in Hell, burning in torment, fully conscious of his surroundings and his sufferings.

The thief on the cross died and went to Paradise as Jesus said. Christ does not lie, even if you make him out to be that way.

And WHEN was that? Jesus DID NOT SAY that the theif would go to Paradise on the day that He died. You can twist and contort all you want, but the verse DOES NOT SAY that the theif went to Paradise on that 'today'. However, it DOES say that Jesus responded to a request! The theif asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His Kingdom! We can ACCURATELY determine when the theif went to Paradise by ACCURATELY determining when Jesus 'came into His Kingdom'! That is answered by the Bible!

Instead of trying to fit into this simple Bible story and message a contorted man-made theology through a twisted interpretation of Scripture, just accept the Bible for what it says—both in the English and in the Greek.
Jesus said to him: “Today you shall be with me in Paradise.” Either he said it or he did not. Today, means “today.” Please refrain from twisting His words and calling Him a liar.

What I remember is reading this funk when I was learning about Greek Mythology in high school. This is nothing more than 'baptized paganism'. FUNK. Paradise is in Heaven. Hell is the grave. The dead have not been rewarded yet. That won't happen until the resurrection. WHY would Jesus BRING His reward WITH HIM, if the 'dead' saints have already been in heaven?

You poor lost soul. The day I die I will be ushered into the presence of God, and enjoy great reward immediately. I know that I will not have to wait eons for the resurrection to happen. I will be rewarded as soon as I die. For to me: “to live is Christ, to die is gain.” At death I shall behold him. You have taken a verse out of context that refers to another time period in another dispensation entirely. Then you have the audacity to call Biblical teaching paganism and Funk. It might be a good idea for you to go and have a good talk with Ellen G. White. If you don’t believe the Bible, maybe you will believe her.

The context here is the abuse of the Lord's Table. For this reason God had judged some of them. What was the judgement. Some of them were physically weak, some physically sick, and some were dead. The word sleep meant physically dead. Their spirit was in Heaven, safe with Jesus.

Where does it say that? The word sleep means dead. NOT just physically. There is absolutely no evidence, what so ever, that they died physically and lived on immortally in the spirit. NONE. That is MORE Greek Mythology.

It’s good to know that you are well acquainted with Greek mythology. It is too bad you are not as well acquainted with your Bible. The word “sleep” in 1Cor.11:30 means to be physically dead, and nothing more. One cannot read into the word or verse that which is not there. Dead is dead. Paul was writing a letter to the believers at Corinth, not the Seventh Day Adventists at Corinth. These were not people well versed in the heresy of soul sleep and the annihilation of the wicked. They had been taught by Jews and/or former Jews. These concepts did not exist in the Old Testament, nor in Judaism. Of course, they don’t exist in the Bible at all; they are man-made doctrinal heresies. What Paul told these believers was that some of them were weak, some sick, and some dead. That is not a difficult concept to grasp. They died. Their body was in the grave, and their spirit was with the Lord. Everyone will live one forever whether you like it or not. Man has an immortal soul.
You choose you place of destiny: heaven or hell. Reject Christ or Receive Christ. Spend an eternity in Hell or spend an eternity in Heaven. You will live on in eternity with an immortal body one way or another. The choice is yours. The determining factor is Jesus Christ, and who He is to you.
DHK

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by DHK:
[qb]

Everyone will live one forever whether you like it or not. Man has an immortal soul.
You choose you place of destiny: heaven or hell. Reject Christ or Receive Christ. Spend an eternity in Hell or spend an eternity in Heaven. You will live on in eternity with an immortal body one way or another. The choice is yours. The determining factor is Jesus Christ, and who He is to you.
DHK

Amen DHK.This is what the Bible teaches does anyone dissagree?
Murph

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

We will close our eyes in death and similtaneously open our eyes to new Life everlasting! We will all get paid on the same day and time regardless of how long we labored.
Kelly

If I understand you correctly you contend that nobody goes to heaven until all of us go. If that is true then please explain these verses

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:9-11 (KJV)