Will the Lake of Fire Ever Go Out?

[neal4christ]

Several different places. Why?

What do you think 'transfigured' means?

First off, are you talking of Matt. 17 and Mark 9 when you are talking of transfigured? That is what I am referring to.

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> What? That is an indirect quote of YOU.

I am talking about how you use that passage to apply to the apostles.

Boy, this is getting confusing!

Neal</font>[/QUOTE]I have *tried* to apply that passage to several things, all of which is pure speculation, since we do not KNOW what is meant by it.

Unless one of us has had a face to face conversation with God, and asked Him what He meant, NONE of us KNOW for sure what that passage is referring to.

I was going through every possible avenue.

One of them happened to be the Apostles who were 'in prison'. That isn't any more a crazy idea than 'people from before the flood'.....

 

[neal4christ]

That isn't any more a crazy idea than 'people from before the flood'.....

Except, of course, the passage is pointing to something of that nature.

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Several different places. Why?

What do you think 'transfigured' means?

First off, are you talking of Matt. 17 and Mark 9 when you are talking of transfigured? That is what I am referring to.

Neal</font>[/QUOTE]NOPE! That is why I kept asking you what you were referring to.

If you look at my original post it said 'in Gethsemane'

I called it transfigured, really by mistake.

I don't know what that is called, do you?

When Jesus was praying just before Judas betrayed Him and He was taken.

I thought that was when He took the sins on Him, because He asked God one last time if He really had to do it, and said, 'Not my will but thine'

Then there is this verse:
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I have always tied the two together, because He took those sins to the cross with Him.

That was the last time that He was in fervent prayer before the crusifixtion.

I don't know why I said transfiguration.

That's funny.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> That isn't any more a crazy idea than 'people from before the flood'.....

Except, of course, the passage is pointing to something of that nature.

Neal</font>[/QUOTE]That still doesn't make it sensable. We don't know for sure if that is the same sentence or even the same thought. I have always considered the Noah part to go with the Baptism part.

In the light of the rest of the Bible, though, it doesn't make much sense. And it does say 'in prison'. Where is there evidence that the antideluvians are in prison?

That is my point. There is evidence that the Apostles were in prison, and demons, and well, technically Noah and his family. But where do you get the idea that the antideluvians were in prison?

 

[3AngelsMom]

DHK,
I don't remember which thread we were talking about this in, but I finally found that verse I was looking for to prove that Elijah has ALREADY come back. (John the Baptist)

Matthew 17:10. And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

I thought that was pretty clear.

You don't have to argue if you don't want to, that was like 3 days ago. I just wanted to point out that it is in the Bible.

God Bless.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

It was only Jesus who died. It was the Holy Spirit who made Him alive again. There are 3 parts to God. Other wise HOW could Jesus have said "Father, why have you forsaken me" and "Into thy hands I commit My Spirit"?

All right, you need some fairly basic teaching here, and I say that respectfully. When Jesus was on this earth He was totally God, and totally man at the same time. He never gave up his deity, His Godhood, so to speak. Always remember that. His works demonstrated that He was God. When He cried out to "His Father," it was the human part of Christ praying. He was showing that He was human. When he went to the cross He told Peter to put down his sword, rebuking him, and telling him: Know ye not that I could have called 12 legions of angels from my Father. A legion is 6,000. He could have called 72,000 angels or an innumerable amount to defend Himself from going to the cross. He was God. He could do what He wanted in that respect. But as man He submitted to the Father and thus to the Roman soldiers, and the Jews, and allowed himself to be crucified. He was both man and God at the same time. He never for one second of His life gave up His deity. He laid aside the powers of His deity, but He still was God.

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are in a sense inseparable. They are both part of the one Godhead. But Jesus as a man took upon Himself human flesh. This is known as the incarnation. He told his disciples that it was He who had the power to take his life and lay it down, and take it up again. Why? He was God. No man could take that power from Him. In so doing, rising from the dead, He demonstrated that He was God; for no other person can do that. It was not the Holy Spirit as a separate entity that caused Jesus to rise from the dead. Christ arose, by His own power, as He said He would. Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again, He said. There is only one God; three persons in one God--a mystery known as the trinity.

Do you understand the transfiguration? Jesus took upon the sins of the whole world and at that moment BECAME sin for us. When Jesus was here IN FLESH, He was a separate being. Most of these passages make the doctrine of God being 'just one God' look impossible, but we know that the 3 part God, is ONE. How that is, I don't know. But it is.

(John 3:13 KJV) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

(1 Tim 3:16 KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

(Isa 9:6 KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

(1 Pet 2:21 KJV) For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

(1 Pet 2:22 KJV) Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

(1 Pet 2:23 KJV) Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

(1 Pet 2:24 KJV) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

(2 Cor 5:19 KJV) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

(2 Cor 5:20 KJV) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

(2 Cor 5:21 KJV) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus was not a separate being. Just look at the verses posted. John 3:13 points to His omnipresence. He was both on earth and in Heaven at the same time. He was God. 1Tim.3:16 contradicts just about everything you have said or believe in. He is God manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit and seen of angels. 2Cor.5:19 says that God was in Christ. What was He doing? Reconciling the world unto Himself. Christ is God, NOT a separate being.

Further evidence is that the Holy Spirit decended upon Him like a dove at His baptism. If Jesus IS the Holy Spirit, how could it decend on Him? If Jesus IS the Father, why did He say "Why have YOU forsaken me?" ? Who was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane?

The Holy Spirit descended upon Him to indicate the beginning of his earthly ministry. He already had the Holy Spirit. He was God. This was merely symbolic. Again study John 3:13 where Jesus is both on earth and in Heaven. He is both man and God at the same time. While on earth he has laid aside some of His divine attributes and chosen not to exercise them of His own Divine will.

There were not any dead people from the flood that were worthy of being saved. Those who were worthy WERE ON THE ARK. PERIOD. It says that right in the flood record in Genesis.

Nobody is saying that there were.

Jesus was 'quickened' which means MADE ALIVE, and it says BY the Spirit, NOT in the Spirit. HE WAS ALIVE. His BODY was resurrected.
It says that the SAME Spirit (by which also) that made Him alive, made it possible for Him to proclaim something to the 'spirits' in 'prison'.

Yes, Christ's Spirit was alive during those three days and nights, but His body was dead and in the grave.
The same Spirit (His Spirit) made it possible to proclaim victory to the spirits in prison.

Jesus was not in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights.
Friday, as the Sabbath was approaching, He died.
Saturday, on the Sabbath He was resting in the tomb.
Sunday, the disciples found the tomb empty.

Which means sometime between Sundown on Saturday and sunup on Sunday, He arose.

That is only one day and 2 nights.

(Mat 12:40 KJV) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

These are the words of Jesus that you must argue with, not mine. Your difficulty is a reckoning with Jewish time. But, yes, He was three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The Bible does not lie.

'God is a Spirit' you said.
Yes, one part of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit, but how were we made in the IMAGE of God, if He is not a physical person?

We are not made in the image of God phsically. It never suggests that we are. We are made morally, and with a will to choose between good and evil. We are made intellectually. We are made as a tripartite being: having body, soul, and spirit (1Thes.5:23). In these ways we are made in the image of God.

Before the fall of man, Adam and Eve both had immortal bodies, LIKE God. They could not be sick, or harmed, or killed. They were made in His image. Like a mirror. Flesh. Spirit. They were living souls. When they sinned, whatever it was that made them immortal, went bye bye, and they were immediatly 'translated' into mortal people.

Much of what you just said is mere specuation, and some of it is heresy similar to Mormon belief. God never had a fleshly body until Jesus came in the flesh (the incarnation). God was not once a man. To be made in the image of God has nothing to do with a physical image. No where does the Scripture imply that. The Scripture does not say that Adam and Eve had immortal bodies. Some speculate that had they eaten of the Tree of Life instead of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, that they would have lived forever, but even that we don't know for sure. When Adam and Eve sinned, they lost their fellowship with God. Their spirit became spiritually dead (Eph.2:1). Study this verse out:

(Eph 2:1 KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
--They were dead. How? In their spirits. Christ made them alive when they received Him as Saviour.

At the Resurrection, we will do the opposite. Be translated INTO immortal beings.

But it doesn't say that does it. That is a made up doctrine. We will rise from the dead. Our bodies will be resurrected. That is what it says. It will be an instantaneous event--in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye--so the hows and wherefores you don't have to be concerned about. Leave it in God's hands.

'It is immpossible that God would be dead' you said, only brings to mind one thing.

He wasn't dead. HE WAS ASLEEP.

Well there it is in black and white for everyone to read. A straight blanket denial of the gospel. You have just said that Jesus did not die. Do you know how many times in the New Testament alone that it says Christ died? Too many for me to count right now, but maybe I'll do a count for you sometime. Christ died for our sins. That is the major thrust of the gospel. And you deny that. If He just slept, then your salvation is in vain. He did not pay the penalty for your sins, and in no way could you ever be saved. "The wages of sin is DEATH. Christ had to pay that penalty. The wages of sin is not sleep; it is death. He had to die. If you believe that there is no way that you could be saved.

There you are. The doctrine of soul sleep proven in the very death of Christ.

See above.

Jesus was quickened by the Spirit, and He GOT UP AND WALKED OUT OF THE TOMB.

HE AROSE!!! He did not walk out of the tomb.

Why would Jesus go to the antideluvians and 'preach' His victory? They will be judged just like every other dead person in the Judgement!

That's right they will be. As to why, I am not sure. Perhaps I will ask Him for you when I get to Heaven.

That really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Jesus was like "Nener nener nener, I got the victory, nener nener nener"?????

Sheesh.

Again, just because these 'testimonies' are together here, does not mean that they happened in that order.

The Spirit of God, (the same one that quickened Jesus) also went to the spirits in prison.

You want to put that on the antideluvians? How about Noah and his family? Were they not IN a prison?

God 'proclaimed to them'

Genesis 8:15. And God spake unto Noah, saying,
16. Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.
17. Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18. And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
19. Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20. And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

The idea that God, through the Spirit was speaking to Noah and his family is a WHOLE lot more feasable than the idea that He was speaking to the wicked 'disembodied' spirits that were in 'prison' (you didn't define that btw).

The word disembodied isn't in there. I don't think it occurs in Scripture at all. However it does say that the WHOLE earth and EVERY living thing that was on it DIED.

Obviously they are disembodied because the resurrection has not taken place yet. They are spirits. He is not speaking to Noah and his family, because the Noah would not be in a "prison" Read the context. "Who were once disobedient" That is not Noah.

As for the Bible calling them 'spirits', well, I will ask God when I get there!

You don't have to ask God "when you get there," when the Bible has already told you so.
1Pet.3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

There are 40+ other mentions of the word 'spirits' in the Bible, all of which are either 'ruwach' or 'pneuma' (hebrew and greek respectivly). And in EVERY other verse, other than the ones above, it is talking about angels and demons. hmmm.

Father of spirits is simply one of the many designations given to God, as He is a Spirit, and many of the creatures He has create are spirits (like all the creatures in Heaven, angels, etc.). In James He is called the Father of lights. He has many titles or names.
DHK

[ January 29, 2003, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
It was only Jesus who died. It was the Holy Spirit who made Him alive again. There are 3 parts to God. Otherwise HOW could Jesus have said "Father, why have you forsaken me" and "Into thy hands I commit My Spirit"?

All right, you need some fairly basic teaching here, and I say that respectfully. When Jesus was on this earth He was totally God, and totally man at the same time. He never gave up his deity, His Godhood, so to speak. Always remember that. His works demonstrated that He was God. When He cried out to "His Father," it was the human part of Christ praying. He was showing that He was human. When he went to the cross He told Peter to put down his sword, rebuking him, and telling him: Know ye not that I could have called 12 legions of angels from my Father. A legion is 6,000. He could have called 72,000 angels or an innumerable amount to defend Himself from going to the cross. He was God. He could do what He wanted in that respect. But as man He submitted to the Father and thus to the Roman soldiers, and the Jews, and allowed himself to be crucified. He was both man and God at the same time. He never for one second of His life gave up His deity. He laid aside the powers of His deity, but He still was God.

I don't disagree with any of that. It says what I just said. God in 3 persons. Who are 3 distinct persons. When Jesus was here there was God. Are you saying that when Jesus was here, He was in heaven at the same time? That is the point of my question. Why did He pray. If He was similtanteously in heaven and on earth, why didn't the Jesus in heaven talk to the Father?

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are in a sense inseparable. They are both part of the one Godhead. But Jesus as a man took upon Himself human flesh. This is known as the incarnation. He told his disciples that it was He who had the power to take his life and lay it down, and take it up again. Why? He was God. No man could take that power from Him. In so doing, rising from the dead, He demonstrated that He was God; for no other person can do that. It was not the Holy Spirit as a separate entity that caused Jesus to rise from the dead. Christ arose, by His own power, as He said He would. Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again, He said. There is only one God; three persons in one God--a mystery known as the trinity.

I agree with all of that too. It still doesn't answer the question, why did Jesus pray to the Father?

Jesus took upon the sins of the whole world and at that moment BECAME sin for us. When Jesus was here IN FLESH, He was a separate being. Most of these passages make the doctrine of God being 'just one God' look impossible, but we know that the 3 part God, is ONE. How that is, I don't know. But it is.

(John 3:13 KJV) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

(1 Tim 3:16 KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

(Isa 9:6 KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

(1 Pet 2:21 KJV) For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

(1 Pet 2:22 KJV) Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

(1 Pet 2:23 KJV) Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

(1 Pet 2:24 KJV) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

(2 Cor 5:19 KJV) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

(2 Cor 5:20 KJV) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

(2 Cor 5:21 KJV) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus was not a separate being. Just look at the verses posted. John 3:13 points to His omnipresence. He was both on earth and in Heaven at the same time. He was God. 1Tim.3:16 contradicts just about everything you have said or believe in. He is God manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit and seen of angels. 2Cor.5:19 says that God was in Christ. What was He doing? Reconciling the world unto Himself. Christ is God, NOT a separate being.

And again, I agree with all of that, seeing as how it is mostly scripture, but it still doesn't answer the question- WHY was He praying to the Father?

Further evidence is that the Holy Spirit decended upon Him like a dove at His baptism. If Jesus IS the Holy Spirit, how could it decend on Him? If Jesus IS the Father, why did He say "Why have YOU forsaken me?" ? Who was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane?

The Holy Spirit descended upon Him to indicate the beginning of his earthly ministry. He already had the Holy Spirit. He was God. This was merely symbolic. Again study John 3:13 where Jesus is both on earth and in Heaven. He is both man and God at the same time. While on earth he has laid aside some of His divine attributes and chosen not to exercise them of His own Divine will.

Which divine attributes did He lay aside?

There were not any dead people from the flood that were worthy of being saved. Those who were worthy WERE ON THE ARK. PERIOD. It says that right in the flood record in Genesis.

Nobody is saying that there were.

Well I am glad we cleared that up! Why were they in prison? Where does it say that the antideluvians were in prison?

Jesus was 'quickened' which means MADE ALIVE, and it says BY the Spirit, NOT in the Spirit. HE WAS ALIVE. His BODY was resurrected.
It says that the SAME Spirit (by which also) that made Him alive, made it possible for Him to proclaim something to the 'spirits' in 'prison'.

Yes, Christ's Spirit was alive during those three days and nights, but His body was dead and in the grave.

Ok, why does it say 'the Spirit quickened Him then? Was His Spirit in need of quickening? NO! His body was, so that PROVES beyond anything you could contest that JESUS was resurrected, body and spirit AT THAT MOMENT. No if ands or buts about it. We both agree that the Spirit does not die, so if the verse says 'quickened' (to make alive) then it HAS to be talking about His body!

The same Spirit (His Spirit) made it possible to proclaim victory to the spirits in prison.

Victory over what? Why would they need to know this? What is this prison?

Jesus was not in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights.
Friday, as the Sabbath was approaching, He died.
Saturday, on the Sabbath He was resting in the tomb.
Sunday, the disciples found the tomb empty.

Which means sometime between Sundown on Saturday and sunup on Sunday, He arose.

That is only one day and 2 nights.

(Mat 12:40 KJV) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

That verse COULD not be talking about when Jesus was in the tomb. Want to know why? Because that would make God a liar, and God is NOT a liar.

These are the words of Jesus that you must argue with, not mine. Your difficulty is a reckoning with Jewish time. But, yes, He was three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The Bible does not lie.

Jesus WAS not in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights, but He was however in His earthly ministry in the 'heart of the earth' for just over 3 years. And since I know the Bible is true, it must be a misinterpretation on your part to say that this passage is referring to the time He spent in the tomb. I have no problem with Jewish time, I happen to keep it, once a week!

The time is not an issue here, the writers made it clear how long He was in there. NOT 3 days and 3 nights.

'God is a Spirit' you said.
Yes, one part of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit, but how were we made in the IMAGE of God, if He is not a physical person?

We are not made in the image of God physically. It never suggests that we are. We are made morally, and with a will to choose between good and evil. We are made intellectually. We are made as a tripartite being: having body, soul, and spirit (1Thes.5:23). In these ways we are made in the image of God.

If we are a tripartite being with BODY, soul and Spirit, and in THOSE ways we are in the image of God, HOW do you reckon that we are not made in the image of God PHYSICALLY? Is our body not physical now?

Before the fall of man, Adam and Eve both had immortal bodies, LIKE God. They could not be sick, or harmed, or killed. They were made in His image. Like a mirror. Flesh. Spirit. They were living souls. When they sinned, whatever it was that made them immortal, went bye bye, and they were immediatly 'translated' into mortal people.

Much of what you just said is mere speculation, and some of it is heresy similar to Mormon belief. God never had a fleshly body until Jesus came in the flesh (the incarnation).

Reference please?

God was not once a man. To be made in the image of God has nothing to do with a physical image. No where does the Scripture imply that.

I beg to differ:
26. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

That is FOUR times that it is implied. FOUR.

The Scripture does not say that Adam and Eve had immortal bodies. Some speculate that had they eaten of the Tree of Life instead of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, that they would have lived forever, but even that we don't know for sure.

Yes we do.
16. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
SO if they could eat EVERY tree EXCEPT the good and evil one, THEY WERE EATING from the Tree of Life. Why else would God say that the punishment for eating it would be death? If they were already going to die, how would that be fearful?

When Adam and Eve sinned, they lost their fellowship with God. Their spirit became spiritually dead (Eph.2:1). Study this verse out:

(Eph 2:1 KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
--They were dead. How? In their spirits. Christ made them alive when they received Him as Saviour.

Simple. You were alive before you sinned. Rules out original sin here. The Holy Spirit is in a child until they sin willfully. Then, like Paul says: Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. He was ALIVE without the law. So when He KNEW that it was sin, and did it anyway, HE DIED. He was spiritually dead, because He was then without the Holy Spirit. He didn't physically die, and it wasn't 'his ghost' that died. Otherwise (according to your tripartite theory) how could he have still been a man?

At the Resurrection, we will do the opposite. Be translated INTO immortal beings.

But it doesn't say that does it. That is a made up doctrine. We will rise from the dead. Our bodies will be resurrected. That is what it says. It will be an instantaneous event--in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye--so the hows and wherefores you don't have to be concerned about. Leave it in God's hands.

Let's see who made it up:
1 Thess 4: 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Corinth 15: 50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

'It is immpossible that God would be dead' you said, only brings to mind one thing.

He wasn't dead. HE WAS ASLEEP.

Well there it is in black and white for everyone to read. A straight blanket denial of the gospel. You have just said that Jesus did not die.

I sure hope that you didn't mean to do that on purpose, because I was quoting YOU. YOU said that it is IMMPOSSIBLE THAT GOD WOULD BE DEAD.
There is ONLY evidence to say that the BODY sleeps awaiting the resurrection. And since Jesus DID INDEED DIE in a physical (made in the image of God) body. That body was asleep in the grave, just like how everyone else who has a body does when their body dies.

Do you know how many times in the New Testament alone that it says Christ died? Too many for me to count right now, but maybe I'll do a count for you sometime. Christ died for our sins. That is the major thrust of the gospel. And you deny that.

NO you did. YOU said "It is immpossible for God to be dead"

If He just slept, then your salvation is in vain. He did not pay the penalty for your sins, and in no way could you ever be saved. "The wages of sin is DEATH.

It is interesting how you point that out. If He didn't pay the penalty if He DIDN'T die (which is NOT to imply that He didn't) then HOW is it that He DID pay the 'penalty' of burning forever and ever?

Christ had to pay that penalty. The wages of sin is not sleep; it is death. He had to die.

So now He DID die, but I thought you said it is IMMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO BE DEAD?

If you believe that there is no way that you could be saved.

Well then, I guess it's all layed out before me, if I believe the Bible is true, and that death is called 'sleep' over 50 times in the Bible, and I believe that because I believe the Bible, I am not saved?
There is no doubt that His body gave up the 'ghost' (which btw is 'pneuma' or 'breath of life'). His body was dead. Just like Lazarus, which Jesus HIMSELF raised from the dead. And WHAT did Jesus say in regards to that? "Lazarus sleepeth", and when they asked Him again He said plainly "Lazarus is DEAD".

There you are. The doctrine of soul sleep proven in the very death of Christ.

See above.

I already have and He said to believe the Bible over doctrines of men.

Jesus was quickened by the Spirit, and He GOT UP AND WALKED OUT OF THE TOMB.

HE AROSE!!! He did not walk out of the tomb.

How does that prove that He didn't walk out? What did He fly out? What is your point?

Why would Jesus go to the antideluvians and 'preach' His victory? They will be judged just like every other dead person in the Judgement!

That's right they will be. As to why, I am not sure. Perhaps I will ask Him for you when I get to Heaven.

That's ok, I'll ask Him.

That really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Jesus was like "Nener nener nener, I got the victory, nener nener nener"?????
Sheesh.
Again, just because these 'testimonies' are together here, does not mean that they happened in that order.
The Spirit of God, (the same one that quickened Jesus) also went to the spirits in prison.

You want to put that on the antideluvians? How about Noah and his family? Were they not IN a prison?

God 'proclaimed to them'

Genesis 8:15. And God spake unto Noah, saying,
16. Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.
17. Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18. And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
19. Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20. And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

The idea that God, through the Spirit was speaking to Noah and his family is a WHOLE lot more feasable than the idea that He was speaking to the wicked 'disembodied' spirits that were in 'prison' (you didn't define that btw).

The word disembodied isn't in there. I don't think it occurs in Scripture at all. However it does say that the WHOLE earth and EVERY living thing that was on it DIED.

Obviously they are disembodied because the resurrection has not taken place yet.

How does that make them disembodied? People are called that, I showed you that before. 'Spirits' does not always mean 'disembodied'.

They are spirits. He is not speaking to Noah and his family, because Noah would not be in a "prison" Read the context. "Who were once disobedient" That is not Noah.

So then Noah is without sin now? Where is THAT in the Bible?

As for the Bible calling them 'spirits', well, I will ask God when I get there!

You don't have to ask God "when you get there," when the Bible has already told you so.
1Pet.3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Well gee, thanks for clearing that up. What was I thinking?!!! It's the spirits in prison! That's right! THOSE spirits in prison. I knew you would figure it out!

There are 40+ other mentions of the word 'spirits' in the Bible, all of which are either 'ruwach' or 'pneuma' (hebrew and greek respectivly). And in EVERY other verse, other than the ones above, it is talking about angels and demons. hmmm.

Father of spirits is simply one of the many designations given to God, as He is a Spirit, and many of the creatures He has created are spirits (like all the creatures in Heaven, angels, etc.). In James He is called the Father of lights. He has many titles or names.
DHK

What about all the demons? Is He their father too? Were they ever 'sometimes disobedient'? The point there is that the spirits there could be anything. You are speculating way too much and drawing from one sentence a doctrine that DOES NOT agree with the whole of scripture.

All of those suggestions I made as to who the spirits could be, are as pure a speculation as the one you have.

God Bless.

 

[neal4christ]

But where do you get the idea that the antideluvians were in prison?

From the passage in question.

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> But where do you get the idea that the antideluvians were in prison?

From the passage in question.

Neal</font>[/QUOTE]Oh, funny man.

You really are pretty funny!

What I want to know is where IN THE FLOOD account or anywhere in the OT for that matter, shoot, or NT that specifically says that the people who died in the flood are 'in prison'?

That passage does NOT come out and say that, so it is too obscure to build a doctrine on.

God Bless.

 

[neal4christ]

That passage does NOT come out and say that, so it is too obscure to build a doctrine on.

There is no doctrine being built. You asked where I get my idea from and I told you, sorry that you don't like it. We were talking of which of our two ideas (you: Apostles in prison, me: antediluvians in prison). You say it is obscure, so I am on one side, you are on the other.

Look at Mark 9:42-50. What do you say hell is as is seen in this passage spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ?

Neal

[ January 30, 2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

[neal4christ]

What of 2 Peter 2:9-10? Does this not speak of some sort of punishment until the day of judgement? Are the asleep, unconcious?

Neal

[ January 30, 2003, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> That passage does NOT come out and say that, so it is too obscure to build a doctrine on.

There is no doctrine being built. You asked where I get my idea from and I told you, sorry that you don't like it. We were talking of which of our two ideas (you: Apostles in prison, me: antediluvians in prison). You say it is obscure, so I am on one side, you are on the other.

Look at Mark 9:42-50. What do you say hell is as is seen in this passage spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ?

Neal</font>[/QUOTE]So you admit that there is a possiblity that neither of us is right? I didn't say I KNOW THAT IS WHAT IT IS TALKING ABOUT!!!!! So, just so you know, I was just throwing ideas around. You say you aren't building a doctrine, but it seems like DHK is, so I thought you were. With that cleared up, let me tackle that verse:

"Look at Mark 9:42-50. What do you say hell is as is seen in this passage spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ?"

42. And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Hand, Foot, Eye.

Hands. What do you do with your hands? Are there sins that the people of that time could have been commiting with their hands? Theft? Abuse? Self-Abuse? The possibilities are endless. The hands are mentioned in several places:
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Feet. What could you do with your feet? RUN to sin? Walk to sin? Abuse? Again limitless. The Bible has a little to say about the feet as well:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

And last but not least EYES. There are SO many sins that are done in the mind, that are taken in through the eyes. I could write a book! But here are a few:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

So the hands, feet and eyes are parts of our bodies that are all to helpful in causing us to sin. Those 3, if we were without, would undoubtably eliminate just about every sin we could commit. Except for maybe pride. Or bitterness, because I know if I was blind and a quadrapalegic, I would have a hard time not being bitter!

The point is, that it would be better to not have those body parts, than to use them for sin and be punished for that sin.

Now, on to the word 'hell' in this passage. That is what you were after right?

Hell in this passage is the 2nd least used word that is translated as hell, in the Bible.

geenna {gheh'-en-nah}
1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

Even in the Strongs Concordance it states that the place where they burned stuff 'a fit symbol'. This place was where all the criminals were cast as a way of further dishonor by not giving them a proper burial. If someone was caught breaking the law, and was worthy of death, they killed them, and put their body there. They kept the fires burning and it was infested with worms.

The same kind of 'pit of fire' is going to be used to destroy the wicked. The fire will not be quenched, or put out. The fire will burn until all that are in it are consumed, and with the absence of fuel, it will go out.

You asked in another post to explain this verse, so I will go ahead and do it here:

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

You were pointing to the word 'reserved'.

tereo {tay-reh'-o}
1) to attend to carefully, take care of 1a) to guard 1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is 1c) to observe 1d) to reserve: to undergo something

There are other occurances of this usage elswhere in the Bible:

2Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

2Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Reserved. Set aside some where, being kept, in the exact state they were in, waiting.

The place given in 2 Peter 2:4 is 'hell' with yet ANOTHER word with that translation:

tartaroo {tar-tar-o'-o}
from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hell);; v
AV - cast down to hell 1; 1
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews 2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

Where are the demons now? According to this, in a Greek mythological abode of the wicked. Where does the bible say they are?

Psa 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. (the context is the plagues upon Egypt)

They are among us.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

In 1 Pet 2:9 it says 'reserve the ungodly until the day of judgement'. So here we see that they are 'reserved' until judgement. If they are IN hell, wouldn't that indicate that they were ALREADY receiving their reward? If they are reserved UNTIL the day of Judgement, they haven't received their reward.

In 2 Pet 2:17 it says 'reserved for ever'. Does that mean that they will never go there? If it is reserved forever when they go, won't that END the reservation? Point and case, if they are reserved 'for ever' again that means it is reserved for them until they die. For it will BE the thing that they are reserved FOR that will put an end to them.

2 Peter 3:7 Speaks of that fire that they are reserved for. It is now talking of the EARTH being in wait for that same fire. The Lake of Fire. That will destroy ALL the works of the earth, and the heavens.

I feel like this sums it up:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God Bless.

[ January 30, 2003, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]

 

[neal4christ]

You say you aren't building a doctrine, but it seems like DHK is, so I thought you were.

I am not speaking for DHK and I thought you were specifically talking to me. We were looking at the passage of I Peter 3:18-20 and I am saying I am not building a doctrine with it. However, you don't need just this one verse to build a doctrine of everlasting separation and torment.

Actually, I wanted you to focus on some key phrases in Mark 9:42-50.

43 .., to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched
44 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
45 ..to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched
46 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
47 ..to be cast into hell fire
48 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

It seems clear that the hell fire burns forever. So there is the answer to your question starting this thread.

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

Looking over your answer to Mark, it sure is a lot of info, but you never really deal with it. That is nice from Revelation, but I really don't understand why you put it up there. I agree with it too. There will be eternal punishment for the wicked.

Also, you did not address 2 Peter 2:9-10. I don't ever recall asking anything about 2 Peter 2:4, but I may have forgot, thanks anyway.

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Looking over your answer to Mark, it sure is a lot of info, but you never really deal with it. That is nice from Revelation, but I really don't understand why you put it up there. I agree with it too. There will be eternal punishment for the wicked.

Also, you did not address 2 Peter 2:9-10. I don't ever recall asking anything about 2 Peter 2:4, but I may have forgot, thanks anyway.

Neal

In 1 Pet 2:9 it says 'reserve the ungodly until the day of judgement'. So here we see that they are 'reserved' until judgement. If they are IN hell, wouldn't that indicate that they were ALREADY receiving their reward? If they are reserved UNTIL the day of Judgement, they haven't received their reward.

I did adress the wrong one, but I also did the one you asked.

 

[neal4christ]

In 1 Pet 2:9 it says 'reserve the ungodly until the day of judgement'.

You seem to have left out a little phrase in 2 Peter 2:9: "Then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgement." (NKJV)

If they are reserved UNTIL the day of Judgement, they haven't received their reward.

In the rest of your explanation of this verse you seem to contradict the Word of God. You aren't doing that, are you? It does not say that they have received anything, just that they are reserved under punishment for the day of judgement.

Neal

[ January 31, 2003, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> In 1 Pet 2:9 it says 'reserve the ungodly until the day of judgement'.

You seem to have left out a little phrase in 2 Peter 2:9: "Then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgement." (NKJV)

If they are reserved UNTIL the day of Judgement, they haven't received their reward.

In the rest of your explanation of this verse you seem to contradict the Word of God. You aren't doing that, are you? It does not say that they have received anything, just that they are reserved under punishment for the day of judgement.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't leave anything out. You posted a reference and I looked it up. The verse you just posted is a different version than the one I used.

You said 'it does not say that they have received anything'

I said 'they haven't received their reward'

And you say I am contradicting something? HUH?

We obviously agree that they are reserved for judgement. Why do you think I am contradicting the Bible?

God Bless.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

(Eph 2:1 KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
--They were dead. How? In their spirits. Christ made them alive when they received Him as Saviour.

Simple. You were alive before you sinned. Rules out original sin here. The Holy Spirit is in a child until they sin willfully. Then, like Paul says: Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. He was ALIVE without the law. So when He KNEW that it was sin, and did it anyway, HE DIED. He was spiritually dead, because He was then without the Holy Spirit. He didn't physically die, and it wasn't 'his ghost' that died. Otherwise (according to your tripartite theory) how could he have still been a man?
</font>[/QUOTE]"The Holy Spirit is in a child until they sin willfully."

How do you reconcile this belief with the Scripture:

Psam 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
DHK

 

[neal4christ]

The verse you just posted is a different version than the one I used.

So it is okay to use just your version and not look at others? What about the Greek? I have a Greek text (Nestle) that says 'are being punished', not 'to be punished'. The problem is you think people are asleep right now and not being punished. This verse is saying the unjust are reserved under punishment right now. See the problem?

As for the contradiction, you make it seem as if they are being punished right now, they have 'received their reward'. I am saying that if they are being punished right now they have received nothing yet.

Neal