Will there be a "millenium" in which Jesus physically rules this earth?

[Dave G]

@SovereignGrace :
Here is what I see happening when I read the previous for myself:

1) Jesus opens a seal ( of the seven seals found in Revelation 5:1 ), and John hears, as it were, the noise of thunder and one of the four beasts described in Revelation 4:6-7 says, "Come and see".

2) John sees a white horse. He that sat upon him had a bow and a crown was given to him and he went forth conquering, and to conquer...this symbolizes the Lord Jesus Himself ( see Revelation 19:11 ), and He shall come at the end of the 3.5 years ( Revelation 11:2 ) of Tribulation after Anti-Christ rules for that same period of time ( Revelation 13:5 ).

3) The Lamb, Jesus Christ, who is the only one worthy to open the Book and the seals, opens another seal. The second beast says, "come and see".

4) Here we see a red horse, and it was given to the one that sits on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another. This symbolizes war, and no peace will be on the earth during this time, as war will be a constant thing.

5) Jesus opens the 3rd seal, and the third beast tells John to come and see. He sees a black horse whose rider has a pair of balances in his hand. This symbolizes famine, and this is described in verse 6.

7) The Lord opens the 4th seal and the 4th beast tells John to come and see...In verse 8 he sees a pale horse, and he that sits on him is Death, and Hell followed with him. This is self-explanatory. Power is given over these to kill men with the sword ( war ), with hunger ( famine ) and with death ( by pestilence, natural disasters, great heat, poisoned waters, etc ) and with the beasts of the earth whom God shall remove their fear of men and they shall attack people and kill them.

This will occur over a 4th of the earth's surface,
which is pretty much all of the land mass after one considers that the earth is 70% water.

9) Jesus opens the 5th seal and John sees the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony that they held, under the altar.

10) These same souls cry out to the Lord to avenge their deaths by the hands of them who hate Him, and who dwell on the earth.

11) White robes ( the righteousness of the saints, Christ's righteousness imputed to them, see Romans 4 and Revelation 19:8 ) are given to them, signifying that they are the elect and have suffered for being who they are and what God has made them to be. It is said to them that they should rest yet for a little season, until the culmination of the Tribulation, and to wait for their brethren that are to be killed as they were.

12) Jesus opens the sixth seal and there is a great earthquake ( most probably world-wide ), the sun is darkened and the moon is turned blood-red. Both are literal.
13) The stars of heaven ( probably asteroids, perhaps the stars themselves... whose size we really do not know ) fall to the earth, similar to a fig tree caught in a strong wind dropping its fruit ( see Isaiah 34:4, Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:25 ).
14) The heaven departs as a scroll when it is rolled up ( not quite sure what this means, as yet. More study needed, IMO ), signifying the sky being hidden by smoke or ash, as near as I can determine.

15) Men hide themselves in the rocks and caves...
16) and their desperation is so great to hide from Him, that they literally ask the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the Lord, for fear of His wrath;
17) Because it is the day of His wrath and both it and He have come.


May God bless you.

 

[Iconoclast]

" And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" ( Revelation 6:1-17 ).

The preceding happens during the "Great Tribulation", otherwise known as the time of Jacob's trouble ( Jeremiah 30:1-9 ).

Hello DG,
I know you do not want to get into a "thing on this topic".
Could I ask for your thoughts concerning vs 12-17.?
The apparent language describing sun,moon,stars,heaven rolling up like a scroll?
Thank You.If it helps I will not respond to what you post directly.

I just saw that you posted this, Thank you....had not read your second
post...
ost

 

[1689Dave]

We 1st have to explore how we're coming to the conclusions we're coming to

If you use scripture IN IT's CONTEXT, Dispensationalism cannot stand for a moment. It's only after you do like Lindsay says in so many words, "clip passages from their context to combine them to fit today's News, that it finds broad acceptance.

 

[1689Dave]

You don't know either history or Scripture too well. First, you reject plain Scripture that says there WILL be a millenium, in your previous post, and now, THIS goofy stuff. AND YOU CALL YOURSELF A BAPTIST ? ?

You don't realize that God blinded the Pharisees so they could not understand scripture. And you along with them reject Jesus' gospel of the Kingdom and side with those who hate him most.

 

[1689Dave]

Then you don't believe Scripture, which says there WILL be.

Only according to the blind Pharisees. And perhaps those who reject historic Christianity for Jesuit lies.

 

[SovereignGrace]

" And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" ( Revelation 6:1-17 ).

The preceding happens during the "Great Tribulation", otherwise known as the time of Jacob's trouble ( Jeremiah 30:1-9 ).

But if you read Matthew 24, Jesus ascribes the Great Tribulation to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. There’s no way to escape Jesus saying, ”Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”[Matthew 24:34]

Then he said ”For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.”[Matthew 24:34] In the days of Noah, he was considered a preacher of righteousness[2 Peter 2:5], as he preached to ppl as they were preparing the Ark. It was the non-believers who were swept away, not believers, as the rapture teachers have it.

So, I’m not so sure that Revelation 6 and the Great Tribulation Jesus taught(also found in Luke 21) are speaking to the same event and time.

 

[SovereignGrace]

@SovereignGrace :
Here is what I see happening when I read the previous for myself:

1) Jesus opens a seal ( of the seven seals found in Revelation 5:1 ), and John hears, as it were, the noise of thunder and one of the four beasts described in Revelation 4:6-7 says, "Come and see".

2) John sees a white horse. He that sat upon him had a bow and a crown was given to him and he went forth conquering, and to conquer...this symbolizes the Lord Jesus Himself ( see Revelation 19:11 ), and He shall come at the end of the 3.5 years ( Revelation 11:2 ) of Tribulation after Anti-Christ rules for that same period of time ( Revelation 13:5 ).

3) The Lamb, Jesus Christ, who is the only one worthy to open the Book and the seals, opens another seal. The second beast says, "come and see".

4) Here we see a red horse, and it was given to the one that sits on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another. This symbolizes war, and no peace will be on the earth during this time, as war will be a constant thing.

5) Jesus opens the 3rd seal, and the third beast tells John to come and see. He sees a black horse whose rider has a pair of balances in his hand. This symbolizes famine, and this is described in verse 6.

7) The Lord opens the 4th seal and the 4th beast tells John to come and see...In verse 8 he sees a pale horse, and he that sits on him is Death, and Hell followed with him. This is self-explanatory. Power is given over these to kill men with the sword ( war ), with hunger ( famine ) and with death ( by pestilence, natural disasters, great heat, poisoned waters, etc ) and with the beasts of the earth whom God shall remove their fear of men and they shall attack people and kill them.

This will occur over a 4th of the earth's surface,
which is pretty much all of the land mass after one considers that the earth is 70% water.

9) Jesus opens the 5th seal and John sees the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony that they held, under the altar.

10) These same souls cry out to the Lord to avenge their deaths by the hands of them who hate Him, and who dwell on the earth.

11) White robes ( the righteousness of the saints, Christ's righteousness imputed to them, see Romans 4 and Revelation 19:8 ) are given to them, signifying that they are the elect and have suffered for being who they are and what God has made them to be. It is said to them that they should rest yet for a little season, until the culmination of the Tribulation, and to wait for their brethren that are to be killed as they were.

12) Jesus opens the sixth seal and there is a great earthquake ( most probably world-wide ), the sun is darkened and the moon is turned blood-red. Both are literal.
13) The stars of heaven ( probably asteroids, perhaps the stars themselves... whose size we really do not know ) fall to the earth, similar to a fig tree caught in a strong wind dropping its fruit ( see Isaiah 34:4, Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:25 ).
14) The heaven departs as a scroll when it is rolled up ( not quite sure what this means, as yet. More study needed, IMO ), signifying the sky being hidden by smoke or ash, as near as I can determine.

15) Men hide themselves in the rocks and caves...
16) and their desperation is so great to hide from Him, that they literally ask the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the Lord, for fear of His wrath;
17) Because it is the day of His wrath and both it and He have come.


May God bless you.

So, each event, are they to be taken literally or figuratively as they are being fulfilled?

 

[JonC]

Well, if you go too far one way anything and everything is up for grabs…i.e. symbolism/allegorizing everything. If you go too far the other way…everything is taken literal, then everything becomes stiff/rigid. I try to find that balance between the two, but in Revelation, what is to be taken literally and/or symbolic is tough for me.

Most of Christianity seems to work within a spectrum (not a fine point) between "too far" either way....and I suppose most (Baptists anyway) afford breathing room.

Two people can have different views and come to different conclusions while remaining "biblical", although one or both may be wrong.

That is a human limitation, I suppose. Sometimes we want to know things beyond what the God offers.

 

[Iconoclast]

The same language of sun moon and stars has been used by God in several judgement passages in the OT.
Isa..34, and Hosea 10:8, use the same language found in Rev..6, and Mt.24.
It was not literal sun, moon, and stars in view but a literal meaning can be discovered upon searching and comparing all such passages...Isa13,joel2 zeph, Jer,

 

[SovereignGrace]

The same language of sun moon and stars has been used by God in several judgement passages in the OT.
Isa..34, and Hosea 10:8, use the same language found in Rev..6, and Mt.24.
It was not literal sun, moon, and stars in view but a literal meaning can be discovered upon searching and comparing all such passages...Isa13,joel2 zeph, Jer,

Precisely. Several times apocalyptic language was used when judgment was coming upon a nation.

 

[robycop3]

Only according to the blind Pharisees. And perhaps those who reject historic Christianity for Jesuit lies.

The Scripture is very plain; you simply don't believe it. So again, how can you not believe plain Scipture & call yourself a Baptist? The words "heretic' & hypocrite' come to mind.

 

[robycop3]

You don't realize that God blinded the Pharisees so they could not understand scripture. And you along with them reject Jesus' gospel of the Kingdom and side with those who hate him most.

Scripture as those I posted from Rev. 20 isn't hard to understand. You've been listening to too many witch doctors.

 

[1689Dave]

Scripture as those I posted from Rev. 20 isn't hard to understand. You've been listening to too many witch doctors.

But you read symbols as if they are literal = you cannot understand Revelation.

 

[1689Dave]

The Scripture is very plain; you simply don't believe it. So again, how can you not believe plain Scipture & call yourself a Baptist? The words "heretic' & hypocrite' come to mind.

You read at the same level as the Pharisees whom God blinded.

 

[robycop3]

I think I got a little ahead. The 4 horsemen are the beginnings, but the 6th seal is near the end of the trib, not long before Jesus' return. But the moon often appears as blood in the area of a smoky volcanic eruption, or the California wildfires, and that smoke can mostly obscure the sun, while everying knows "falling stars' are meteors. YOU know that, too, so please cease being obtuse about it.
lol.
you suggest I am being obtuse..
then you post the sun being dark..not literal
moon to blood....not literal, it is dust...
stars falling to the earth..not literal
heaven rolling up like a scroll.....not literal

Men are not seeming to hide in caves and under rocks, because they arelooking at an eclipse through sackcloth, or smoke is tinting the moon.

You're forgetting the great earthquake, several of which are prophesied to occur during the trib, Putting the latter parts of the 6th seal's events with those of Rev. 16, there are several events which will cause people to try to hide in caves or under rocks, such as a rain of rocks, which is what a massive meteor shower actually would be.

And remember, Jesus will cut the trib short so it won't kill all life on earth.

 

[robycop3]

But you read symbols as if they are literal = you cannot understand Revelation.

Apparently, I understand it a LOT better than you do. You're trying to use a preterist thingie & reduce literal Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" form. You can't show us any reason to not believe those Scriptures literally.

 

[1689Dave]

Apparently, I understand it a LOT better than you do. You're trying to use a preterist thingie & reduce literal Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" form. You can't show us any reason to not believe those Scriptures literally.

Jesus is Amillennial, so am I. You lack understanding of end-times positions.

 

[Dave G]

But if you read Matthew 24, Jesus ascribes the Great Tribulation to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.

When I read Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, I do not see the Great Tribulation happening until after the temple is destroyed.
In other words, I don't see them coinciding with each other, but they are separate events that do happen in time, one after the other.

That time frame is not made clear in the passages except as I get further down in the reading.

There’s no way to escape Jesus saying, ”Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”[Matthew 24:34]

Read it all carefully, Willis.
When did the Lord's prophesying of the temple being destroyed ( Matthew 24:2 ) happen? 70 A.D.
Literally foretold, and literally fulfilled.

When did the abomination of desolation take place ( Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:31-39, Daniel 12:11, Matthew 24:15 and several others, Anti-Christ sitting on the mercy seat and declaring himself to be God before the whole world )?

Hint:
It wasn't Antiochus Epiphanes, as that happened before the Lord's birth.
It wasn't the Roman General Titus, who destroyed the second temple and laid waste to Jerusalem.

Answer:
It hasn't happened yet...
Because if it did, it would have been immediately followed by all of the worlds believers running for the hills in obedience to the Lord's commands in Matthew 24:16-20, followed immediately by 42 months of nothing but plagues, war, pestilence, heat, animal attacks, etc. followed immediately by His second coming as Matthew 24 and Mark 13 lays out.

That is what I see the language of those passages describing.

What does it say after Matthew 24:21, after the Great Tribulation starts?
" And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened." <------There are elect on earth during the Tribulation, but no flesh will be saved ( all of humanity would be killed ) except the days are shortened... for the sake of God's elect who are still living.

So...if the abomination has already happened, then the Tribulation would have already happened.
If the Tribulation has happened, then His coming again would have already happened.
They are all literal events that were foretold, by the Lord Jesus, to happen.

Have they all happened yet? Has He come again?
If He did, then we would have known it and would now be living in our resurrected bodies as 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 shows us.

Now the parable:

" Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." ( Matthew 24:32-35 ).

" Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." ( Luke 21:32 )

He uses the parable of the fig tree to describe how we, as His sheep, know that the end is near...
When we see ALL these things come to pass, then the end is near.
Therefore, the generation that is living when ALL the things described in this passage are fulfilled, shall not pass.

That is what the language of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 develops, as I see it.

 

[Dave G]

Then he said ”For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.”[Matthew 24:34] In the days of Noah, he was considered a preacher of righteousness[2 Peter 2:5], as he preached to ppl as they were preparing the Ark. It was the non-believers who were swept away, not believers, as the rapture teachers have it.

I disagree, and see that it is believers who will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall they ever be with the Lord ( 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 ).
According to Matthew 24 and Mark 13, believers ( the elect ) are gathered to Him as He is coming down... after the Tribulation, not before it.

This leaves unbelievers ( except for what is left of the nation of Israel, who will see Him whom they have pierced and will mourn for Him ) to be ruled over with a rod of iron ( His unyielding law ) when He comes and fulfills Zechariah 10 through Zechariah 14, Micah 4, Isaiah 2, Isaiah 30:19-33 and many other passages.

So, I’m not so sure that Revelation 6 and the Great Tribulation Jesus taught(also found in Luke 21) are speaking to the same event and time.

I am sure, and I hope someday that you do see it.

Unlike you, I was never unsure that the events of Revelation 6, for example, coincided with the "Great Tribulation"...
I've always known it from the day that I first read the book of Revelation, just as I have always known and understood, from the first time that I heard and read God's word on any subject...

Jesus Christ bearing my sins on the cross ( Colossians 2:13-14 ), all the way up to and including election, predestination, calling and so forth ( Romans 8:29-30 ).

So, each event, are they to be taken literally or figuratively as they are being fulfilled?

Willis,
I can tell you what I see, but I cannot pass my own understanding of it on to you.
It would not be fair as your brother, to "give you shortcuts" or to "do your homework for you".
That is your own privilege before the Lord to come to that understanding... for yourself and through your own studies.

If you're asking me how you're supposed to understand it, then you're asking the wrong person the wrong question.
Study the Scriptures, my friend, and heed His words.

At the end of the day, the more I've studied the Scriptures for myself, the more I've come to plainly see that "amillennialism" was an error that Augustine and the RCC ( as well as the "Reformers" including John Calvin and many others ) have historically taught, and is an error still taught by many today.

In fact, I don't see it described anywhere in the Bible, and I have no idea why anyone would...
Unless they are understanding things figuratively instead of literally and vice-versa.


Good afternoon to you, and best wishes.

 

[robycop3]

Jesus is Amillennial, so am I. You lack understanding of end-times positions.

the TRUTH is, you seemtabee ASCRIPTURAL, not believing any passages that clash with the jive some quack told you, or you've read.

A millenium = a thousand years, & the Scriptures plainly say a thousand years in every legitimate Bible version. To deny their plain statement is to deny God's word.