Will vaccine division create party splits?

[JonC]

Dictating one's health choices is not the right of an employer.

I agree. The decision has to remain with the employee.

The employer has the right to decide the conditions of employment and the employee has the right to accept or decline.

Neither the employer or the employee has the right to make the choice for the other.

 

[JonC]

You right. It's united. Mandatory Unpaid leave for religious beliefs is ok?

It depends on the situation.

Normally religious requirements are respected unless it becomes an obstacle to job performance. (Eg., the military and religious requirements accepted unless it interfears with wearing the gas mask).

They post the guy on leave (unpaid) because of the increase in covid cases.

They had the authority to do that as the employer.

As an employee he has the right to take it to court and allow legal proceedings to make a decision.

 

[JonC]

Absolutely unbelievable! COVID is a cold virus that can be transmitted through very causal contact. To compare that with a STD that requires s@xual intercourse is obscene.

When the laws concerning HIV transmission were passed, it was a death sentence to get HIV infection. Very few survived more than a few months, maybe a couple of years. There were people intentionally infected others to bring attention to the “cause”.

This virus has a 99.9+ survival rate for almost everyone.

This is a disgusting comparison that lacks any intellectual honesty. I am astonished two people have now called for criminal charges concerning transmission of COVID as if it were a STD.

Mind-boggling!!!!

peace to you

It is not a comparison of covid to HIV.

It is an example of how the government has reacted to neglect and the transmission of a virus.

The point is not that HIV and covid are similar BUT the exact opposite - that they are different.

HIV is transmitted several ways- but not casually. Covid is transmitted without actual contact with another person (it is like the flu in that sense).

My point is there cannot be charges for transmitting covid because it cannot be shown that the guy walking by in the supermarket gave you covid.

It is amazing that you read my post and came away with something exactly opposite of what I actually wrote.

Perhaps I poorly articulated my opinion. Perhaps you lack reading comprehension skills. Probably a combination of the two.

 

[Dave G]

All,
Normally I don't come into this arena because of the overwhelming tendency that exists to disobey the Lord in matters of personal conduct, and to get caught up in the back-and forth that leads to behavior that we as Christians should be avoiding.
However, I've done quite a bit of independent research of my own and have a few things to share:

1) The stats on CoVID-19, after over 1.5 years of it being in widespread circulation, have resulted in a roughly a 99.5-7% survival rate across the board.
This is not the killer that many initially thought that it would be. A matter of serious concern? Yes. A worldwide disaster? Not even close, IMO.
4.7 million deaths worldwide as of the writing of this post ( and there are things that have been around for a lot longer than that and, cumulatively, kill at least that many people each and every year in the world ):
Global Health Estimates: Life expectancy and leading causes of death and disability
The top 10 causes of death
FastStats
COVID Live Update: 225,305,713 Cases and 4,641,733 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer

2) The survival rate dips markedly in older people ( 70+ ), as the body's immune system starts to fail with age, but still maintains a fairly high survival rate.

3) The survival rate in young people ( 18- and especially the very young ), is phenominally high...better that 99.99%, or so, from what I understand.

4) The delta variant is making people sick, whether or not they have been vaccinated with the currently-developed vaccines.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19vaccine/93830
Barnstable Covid-19 Outbreak: Fully Vaccinated Can Spread Coronavirus Delta Variant, Says CDC
Most COVID-19 cases in Massachusetts outbreak among vaccinated, says CDC
CDC shares 'pivotal discovery' on COVID-19 breakthrough infections that led to new mask guidance
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/30/provincetown-covid-outbreak-vaccinated/
CDC: 74% of people infected in Massachusetts outbreak vaccinated

5) Most of the currently-developed vaccines are either produced using mRNA technology, or DNA technology.

They were not developed using the old, "standardized" method that makes use of an inactive or dead component of the actual virus.
This is new technology, and was largely unproven in anything outside of clinical trials until relatively recently...and has not been used, to my knowledge, among large groups of people until the SARS-CoV2 outbreak.

That, in itself, should give anyone pause.

6) There are side effects of the new technologies that are only recently ( after a mere 9 months of being available ) starting to surface and are beginning to be of serious concern. Many people have developed faster heart rates, extreme tiredness, CoVID-19 symptoms lasting several weeks past what was initially expected, heart inflammation and others.

There are even some reports of deaths among those who have received the vaccine and have never been infected by SARS-CoV2.

 

[Dave G]

7) There are performance issues that involve the new technologies that appear to not have had time to be fully evaluated, and the vaccines are not acting as initially believed.
In other words and for example, what scientists thought was going to happen regarding spike proteins staying largely at the injection site, is proving to be quite the opposite.

8) The "delta" variant was present and being reported in India as early as last December, 2020. There is no way for the vaccination status of Americans or those of other countries to have contributed to the mutation of SARS-CoV2 and the development of "delta", because the current vaccines were not even released for distribution until mid-way through the same month.

Fact:
Viruses mutate, some believe to overcome the human body's own natural resistances, and some believe for other reasons.
That's what viruses do, they mutate. No amount of vaccination will stop mutations, and the history of influenza strains, for example, should prove it.

9) "Delta" ( and others ) has not had time to fully circulate, neither have vaccine manufacturers had time to develop ones for the current variant(s).

10) Getting vaccinated now for variants that are resistant to the current vaccines is almost useless, and everything is very nearly back to square 1, IMO.
People are getting sick from "delta", and the vaccines are not preventing it.
The virus is mutating, and the specialists don't really know why.

This makes being vaccinated with obsoleted vaccines a lesson in futility... as to me, the medical community is simply "chasing the backside of the curve" and cannot realistically prevent or stop the illness ( and never really could ).

Opinion:
Do everything that one can to boost one's own God-given and designed immune system, seek the Lord for medical advice, and ( ultimately ) do not rely on fallen men for the solution.

11) From my perspective, the current vaccines were rushed into production after less than a year of trials, and were released-to-public with U.S. FDA Emergency-Use authorization.

In other words, the vaccine manufacturers were ( apparently ) exempted from being held accountable for any side-effects leading to death and / or debilitation while the vaccines were under Emergency-Use authorization.
Patients ( and their families ) who experienced severe side effects leading to extended periods of recovery ( or even death ) were given no recourse for recouping their losses during this time period.

I personally know of at least several at my own workplace ( and 1 in my own department ) who have had problems with the new vaccines, and one death at my workplace due to complications of the vaccine + CoVID-19. Due to privacy regulations, it's not clear whether he received the vaccine first and was subsequently exposed to SARS-CoVID2, or the other way around.

12) Surgical masks do not work in preventing virus transmission, and any military active duty / retired / veteran personnel with NBC training, civilian worker in the Hazardous Materials field, or medical professional ( who is being honest ) will tell you that the only way to guarantee not being contaminated or exposed to something toxic or life-threatening, is a full environment suit with SCBA or MOP 4 gear with gas mask and bio-filters...

...and those are only meant to be a temporary solution until one can remove themselves from the hazardous environment.



Apologies for the "wall of text" in these two posts, but most of you already know my love of being detailed and my habit of being as thorough as possible on many subjects.

Someday I'll try to better condense things for easier reading.

 

[Dave G]

The above stated and to answer the OP:

Yes, I believe that this will result in political party divisions; They are already happening.
Yes, I believe that this will ultimately result in a fundamental split ( that already exists and is only being driven wider ) between those who hold to individual rights and freedoms ( libertarians ), and those who look at society as a whole as being obligated to sacrifice the good of the one for the good of the whole ( nationalists, fascists, socialists, communists / Marxists, etc ), and everything in between.

As I see it,
The United States of America ( and the world at-large ) is ( and has been ) experiencing a polarization between "conservatives" and "liberals" for a great many years now, and it's only getting worse.
What we are now seeing could lead to violence in the future ( it already has, and I could cite many examples ) if people don't find a way to compromise.

While I could share my views on this forum about how this world is being run and what it would take to fix it, ultimately it would serve no purpose other than to echo the thoughts of many here, and to fuel the arguments of others.

At the end of the day we should be obeying the Lord in matters of personal conduct and toward the powers that be ( which are ordained of God ),
and leave the fight for our rights up to Him.
We should be praying for the Lord's mercies and kindnesses in the midst of this chaos, and not tearing down our fellow man in print or in word.
We should be looking to Him for everything, and not to this world's leaders, or medicines or doctors, or lawyers or politicians.


As believers in Jesus Christ, this isn't our world...
We are just passing through, looking for a city and country wherein dwells righteousness, as Abraham was.

To avoid contention, these will be my only replies in this thread.

May God bless you all.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This woman nailed it!

https://www.inspiringquotes.us/imag...d.jpg?ezimgfmt=rs:382x478/rscb4/ng:webp/ngcb4

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

From here in out, fools will run things and they will do it by paying lip service to Gods wants and the wants & needs of there fellow citizens. And what that means is that your individual freedoms and liberties are in peril. I for one stand on the shoulders of my ancestors, people who struggled to be citizens of the United States of America and fought and died in order to keep our freedoms in place. I’m a proud American, not the kind that locks up pastors for having services.

 

[canadyjd]

It it not that cut and dry.

With HIV a person who does not disclose their status and infects another has committed a crime (see HIV nondisclosure).

The possibility is that a covid positive person who does not disclose their status and infects another person could be charged. It would have to be shown the covid positive person did not disclose their status and was in fact the source of the virus which did infect another. It would most likely also have to result in some permanent damage.

There is always the possibility that an infected person who refused to wear a mask and infected others could be guilty of neglect, I suppose…….

It is not a comparison of covid to HIV.

It is an example of how the government has reacted to neglect and the transmission of a virus.

The point is not that HIV and covid are similar BUT the exact opposite - that they are different.

HIV is transmitted several ways- but not casually. Covid is transmitted without actual contact with another person (it is like the flu in that sense).

My point is there cannot be charges for transmitting covid because it cannot be shown that the guy walking by in the supermarket gave you covid.

It is amazing that you read my post and came away with something exactly opposite of what I actually wrote.

Perhaps I poorly articulated my opinion. Perhaps you lack reading comprehension skills. Probably a combination of the two.

Twice you stated there is the “possibility” that a COVID positive person could be charged with a crime for not disclosing their condition and it led to infections.

And yes, you made the direct comparison to HIV laws which criminalized non-disclosure.

My reading comprehension is just fine. Your memory of what you wrote; not so much.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Twice you stated there is the “possibility” that a COVID positive person could be charged with a crime for not disclosing their condition and it led to infections.

And yes, you made the direct comparison to HIV laws which criminalized non-disclosure.

My reading comprehension is just fine. Your memory of what you wrote; not so much.

peace to you

Yes. Spreading the common cold doesn't carry criminal consequences. But intentional or reckless behavior that spreads a disease with serious public health consequences—such as HIV, SARS, Ebola, or COVID-19—can result in criminal charges. A majority of states have communicable disease laws that make it a crime to expose another person to a contagious disease on purpose.

Is It a Crime to Intentionally Get Someone Sick?

So I do believe that it is possible for someone to bring about charges against another person who intentionally infects that person with covid or infects that person by not informing that person he or she is sick.

The part where your comprehension declines is that you went on a rant about me comparing covid to a non-casually transmitted disease, in this case HIV.

An example is a Spanish man who was charged with intentionally spreading covid.

MADRID -- A Spanish man with COVID-19 symptoms who coughed on work colleagues and told them "I'm going to give you all the coronavirus" has been charged with intentionally causing injury after allegedly infecting 22 people. Spanish man charged with infecting 22 people with COVID-19

With the 1918 pandemic it was illegal in places to disobey mask ordinances (i.e., it was a crime).

Numerous communities, particularly across the West, imposed mandatory ordinances. Some sentenced scofflaws to short jail terms, and fines ranged from US$5 to $200.
Mask resistance during a pandemic isn't new – in 1918 many Americans were 'slackers'

So yes, there is a chance people who spread covid could be committing a criminal act.

I know that you are not so foolish to actually believe I was comparing covid to HIV. You were just trying to twist and manipulate my post to suit your desire to have something to complain about. You were wanting to fight strawmen because I did not offer something you could actually swing at (I just said what has happened without saying I agreed with it).

But to offer my view - I do believe it should be criminal to intentionally infect any person with any disease.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Is the vaccine issue enough to split a party?

Yes, but only temporarily, 'til death do us un-part.

 

[Reformed1689]

. But intentional or reckless behavior that spreads a disease with serious public health consequences—such as HIV, SARS, Ebola, or COVID-19

I did not know a 99.75% survival rate equated serious health consequences.

 

[JonC]

I did not know a 99.75% survival rate equated serious health consequences.

Ask the .25% who died.

Also, why did people bother questioning the safety of the vaccine (it has a .0027% risk of serious side-effects)?

Why concern yourself with the approximately .0019% that may have to decide between their job and a vaccine?


BTW, your recent ages are old. You have approximately a 21% chance of dying from covid should you get covid (excluding age and pre-existing conditions).. The vaccinated have an aporoximate 99% chance of surviving should they get covid. The overall chance of surviving is approximately 98% and 75% of the population is vaccinated (the percentage combines the entire population).

 

[JonC]

@Reformed1689 ,

My main point is you are not being very consistent.

If covid having a 98.2% survival rate (a 1.8% chance of dying) is so minimal that it is not important then so also is the .0027% risk of serious side-effects with the vaccines.

And so are the .0019% of people who will have to choose between job and vaccine.

 

[Reformed1689]

@Reformed1689 ,

My main point is you are not being very consistent.

If covid having a 98.2% survival rate (a 1.8% chance of dying) is so minimal that it is not important then so also is the .0027% risk of serious side-effects with the vaccines.

And so are the .0019% of people who will have to choose between job and vaccine.

except you do not know that with vaccines we have no idea what the long term effects of the vaccine is.

 

[Reformed1689]

@Reformed1689 ,

My main point is you are not being very consistent.

If covid having a 98.2% survival rate (a 1.8% chance of dying) is so minimal that it is not important then so also is the .0027% risk of serious side-effects with the vaccines.

And so are the .0019% of people who will have to choose between job and vaccine.

I would say I am being very consistent. My point is that this is an infringement on freedom. It is not a power that the President has.

 

[JonC]

except you do not know that with vaccines we have no idea what the long term effects of the vaccine is.

Exactly. And neither do you. We can only make decisions about we know, not what we fear may happen years from now.

 

[JonC]

I would say I am being very consistent. My point is that this is an infringement on freedom. It is not a power that the President has.

No, it isn't. We do not have a right to work for a particular employee.

That's one problem with our culture today. Everybody feels entitled.

If you cannot wear a respirator because of a physical condition then you cannot work my job. You may feel you have tge right, but the fact is the company has to consider the risks of you entering an area and having an uptake of radiological contamination.

And you do not have the right to dictate to an employer the conditions of employment, or to demand the job if you do not meet those conditions.

You do not even have the right to determine what those conditions may be - you are not in that position.

 

[Reformed1689]

Exactly. And neither do you. We can only make decisions about we know, not what we fear may happen years from now.

And what we know is this vaccine is not vetted.

 

[Reformed1689]

If you cannot wear a respirator because of a physical condition then you cannot work my job. You may feel you have tge right, but the fact is the company has to consider the risks of you entering an area and having an uptake of radiological contamination.

Apples and oranges