Wimpy bishops allow papal supremacy?

Lots of smoke - but no fire as usual CathConv.

Your lack of objectivity is "showing again".

Here you attack your own RC historians for daring to tell the truth about the RCC!!

Bokenkotter confesses at the front of his book in a section addressed to his critics - that he has NOT given justice to all the atrocities committed by the RCC during the dark ages and "almost apologetically" states that this is due to the brevity of the work - limiting it to one volume.

Well - at least he admitted it - that is more than you seem to be able to do.

In Christ,

Bob

 

C'mon Bob -- Baloney.

There are other equally noted historians, such as Anglican noted Allister Mc Grath who contradict what this guy is saying.

He has an axe to grind with Rome and it is a huge one. Do you really expect him to be objective?

And one other fact for you and DHK...it is a known fact that in the 20th century, the Church was infested with Communists and Masons who's sole purpose was to destroy the Church -- rotting Her from within. I would bet a dollar to a donut that he is one of them -- IN SPADES!!!

 

DHK --

Yes, admittedly the Church is in very poor shape right now.

BUT --

We still have the promise of Christ Jesus that She will recover from this, for the gates of hell will not prevail against Her.

We see in history a similar situation after the Nicene Constantinopolitan Council. After the council, the heresy of Arianism still held huge sway, and at one point ALL of the bishops of the East and the great majority of Christians were Arian heretics. Only the pope and St. Athanasius stood between Rome and a complete doctrinal breakdown into accepting heresy. Yet firm they stood and the Church persevered and orthodox doctrine was maintained.

This is just another dip in the road. The Church will survive. Hope you are around to see it, for it will be glorious.

 

So you reject EVEN your own historians for failing to "revise history to your liking"???

Don't you find that you already have to "BE RC" to take such a view?

OR are you saying that MY OWN non-RC historians would have a "much BETTER" view of the RCC than your historians?

Be reasonable. I have gone the extra mile NOT to use MY OWN historians AND also NOT to use an OBSCURE RC historian - but RATHER a best selling author - a well known RC historian.

Please try to be even a little objective here.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Your comments were not surprising Ed. You would try and deny not only the holocaust but the reign of Nero, and Constantine if it were to suit your purposes. If it isn't happening, deny it. If it hasn't happened, deny it. If it has happened, deny it. If it has happened and it is too difficult a matter to deny then just revise it; rewrite it; surgar-coat it--in other words deny it.

On the topic of the decline of the Catholic Church, I searched the web and got just less than 100,000 hits. I only posted a very few for you. I realize that in 100,000 that some may be repetitious, and some may be inaccurate, and some may not even be relevant. But surely, out of 100,000 sites, most speaking of the decline of the Catholic Church, you wouldn't want to spend your time trying to disprove every single site as false information. If you still disagree that the Catholic Church is in a state of decline, and want to prove otherwise, Ed, I'll start posting the URL's for you. You can have all the fun you want.

My suggestion to you is that a retraction is in order about the flocks of people rushing to join the Catholic Church. That is a lie and false propaganda. It is not true. Apart from the false religion of Islam, the fastest growing relgion in the world, the fastest growing movement under the umbrella in Christendom is the Charismatic movement. Aside from them, in general evangelical churches are growing far faster then the old line mainstream churches (including RCC), which have gone modernistic and liberal. There are large Baptist churches, and other evangelistic churches all across this land, while the old mainstream churches are drying up, especially the Roman Catholic churches. The RCC is losing members, their churches and cathedrals are in big trouble, as is their seminaries. And those things are not hard to prove.
DHK

 

Of course logic dictates that "the decline of the Catholic Church" is speaking of just that, the Catholic Church's decline.
On the other hand when one does a search of the growth of the Catholic Church, one does not know the outcome of the search. Has the growth increased or decreased. When one talks of growth, it is not always automatically assumed that there was growth. Often there is a dwindling, a shrikage, a decline, if you will. Check some of your thousands of hits and you will find out that the Catholic Church has experienced some "Negative Growth."
DHK

 

So he attacks your character. And in return, you attack his character. Brilliant.

You have got to be kidding me. Those numbers mean NOTHING. After the first 10-20 sites, you will be just as likely to find a site about used cars as "Catholic Church decline." After the phrase is spent, it picks up sites that employ only one of the words, and often, only half of one of the words. 100,000 sites you did not find. THE MAJORITY do not deal with the topic. That's the simple nature of search engines.

What is this argument. The Catholic Church is in decline in America, yes, because of the secularization that was made so possible through increasingly liberal viewpoints, many predominant in Protestant circles (while Baptists are still pro-life, how many other churches can say they are? And we're the only ones who oppose CONTRACEPTIVE anymore, although the Christian Church has always seen its evils). This shocks you? America is secular; ALL Churches are feeling the loss. To call this a "Catholic" problem is simply an ignorant assumption.

Further, 6% of all Catholics are in America; this is not an American religion - it is a global one, which is what Jesus commanded us to do ("all nations" ring a bell?). Problems in America may or may not be problems all over the world.

FURTHER, while many cradle Catholics of the last generation or two are leaving/have lost interest because of totally improper catechesis, there ARE many people coming into the Church from other religious backgrounds that are EXTREMELY fervant in their belief and help bring new life to the Church.

You can keep your assumptions.

I love this. When the Catholic Church boasts numbers (we have the largest "raw" numbers), you say "Numbers don't matter." But when you have the biggest growth, all of a sudden, "numbers matter." Don't talk to us about propaganda, because that's exactly what your post is. "Don't be Catholic because they are in decline!" What kind of logic is that? Did you ever think that the people that are leaving ARE the liberal people, who finally realize that the Church won't change to suit their whims? GOOD! Hopefully they will reevaluate things and one day return, but THANK THE LORD that many faithful have remained and are fighting through difficult times, despite YOUR propaganda.

 

Can't you check the numbers for yourself. Or, are you also of those that are in denial no matter what the data or statistics will say?

Catholic School Decline

DHK

 

Just sent to me by one of my best friends, Adam Rust, who just started seminary this month:

http://www.cdom.org/wtc/wtc_pages/cover_story1.html

And, apparently you did not even read my post. Congratulations on finding a story that is directed towards your inquirey. Now, if you want to follow through with what you originally said, compile me a list of 50,000 such websites, because only "some" are invalid or irrelevant. So, I'd say that no more than 1/2 would represent "some," as opposed to "most," which is my stance. I look forward to your list, DHK.

Google and other search engines are not cataloguers; although Yahoo does have a catalogue, and it searches it first, what you primarily are getting is individual word searches. You have to put quotation marks to get PHRASE searches. Want my google results?

"Catholic Church decline" - 8 results
"decline of Catholic Church" - 18 results

THOSE are accurate. Your "100,000" results is NOT accurate.

So, DHK, in reply, NO, I am not "hiding" behind anything. I was pointing out how your numbers are 100,000% misleading.

 

These are your assumptions, your misconcepions, your unsubstantiated "facts" (sic). Who are the "many people coming into the Church from other religious backgrounds?" Do we have any honest, objective statistics here? No, just unfounded propaganda. I can give you hard facts how the Catholic Church is diminishing in size; how it is on the decline; how scandals all over the world are hurting it. The Catholic Church is in trouble, and we have a bunch of Catholic apologists on this board who unashamedly will lie about it just to save face as a Catholic. Incredible!!
DHK

 

I was not being misleading with my results. I did use quotations in my search. One of those sites was this one, which both you and Brother Ed should find of some interest. The Catholic Church attendance is waning. Perhaps there are some reasons why (not that they are necessarily the right solutions).

http://www.cbc.ca/news/features/catholic/attendance.html

DHK

 

DHK,

How many news stories out there focus on positive things, and how many on negative things? Can you give me a ratio?

 

DHK --

You claim that I denied, refused to admit, and put a spin on the Church, and if given the chance would deny the other atrocities which the members of the Catholic Church have done.

Does that look to you like I am denying anything?

Sir, it is one thing to try to discuss with someone who is attempting to keep the discussion honest and above board. It is quite another to try any discussion with a person who is a liar, devious, has an agenda to pursue regardless of what else is said, and in general acts like a moron.

End of communication with you. This channel is closed.

MORON!!!

 

DHK,

You said that you used quotation marks. Please give me the exact phrase that you put in quotation marks, and the search engine, so that I might reproduce your results. Thanks.

 

Here is an interesting website. It gives statistics; that is all. Church attendance between 1989 and 1998 from various denominations.

In those years the Catholics reported a decrease from 1,715,900 of those who responded to the survey to 1,230.100—a decrease of 685,800. Both the Baptists and Pentecostal churches reported increases during those years. These churches out of that list would be the most evangelical.
Church Attendance

Here is another revealing quote that does account for any increase that might occur in some localized areas. Catholics do not count their members the same way Baptists do. That makes a huge difference in how many are Catholic and how many are Baptists. The results are therefore skewed in favour of the Catholics by a large margin. It certainly is not by converts that the Catholic Church has any increase; it is by family. Again, honesty is the best policy.

Barna Research

There is plenty of evidence that the Catholic Church is on the decline, and for various reasons. You can say what you wish, change the topic, but this one fact remains the same.
DHK

 

"Catholic Church" decline

I used the google search engine.

 

DHK,

Most kids in my home town (that are Baptist) were typically "saved" by the time they were 9-11 years old. That is hardly adulthood. Call it a southern thing, but most of the people my age (I'm 20) had early "saved" experiences. I assume, that once they are saved, they are included in membership?

 

Some things to consider:

The Baptist Church is autonomous. The Catholic Church is universal. When I search anything for Baptist Church, I usually get hits on random specific congregations, rather than "Baptists" as a whole, which is not surprising considering each church is independant.

Let's be honest here: which churches get the most press (and as we know, almost all press is bad press these days?) The ones currently marked by scandal (ie, Catholic, Episcopal, etc). You're bound to find more negative perspectives on these churches.

With the Catholic Church especially, and it's anti-abortion stance, as well as its firm stand against homosexuality, many people in the liberal media have an agenda to demonize the Church. I am fully aware that the Baptist Church stands on the same ground, but the Baptist Church is not a visible organization, and one cannot attack "Baptists" because there is always the "autonomous" card that one can use in defense.

These numbers, for the most part, are North American statitics, no? Are you surprised in ANY loss of Church membership with the moral decay in this nation? I praise God for the good that have remained, and pray for the fallen.

Only 6% of all Catholics worldwide are in America. It's hardly fair to say that these statistics do or do not reflect globally.

What is the point of this argument anyway? That the Church with the most growth is the correct church? That is something that changes according to social patterns. Now that I think about it, what is the basis of this argument in the first place?

Lastly, I replicated your search, and by the 5-6 page, I began to run into predominantly invalid sites dealing with the topic at hand. That means 50-60 sites. Even if it went to 20 pages, that's only 200 sites out of the listed 119,000 I got on the search.