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Wimpy bishops allow papal supremacy?

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
CathConvert
Thomas Bokenkotter's "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" pg 49

"at first the Christian presbyter or elder avoided any resemblance to the pagan or Jewish priests and in fact even deliberately refused to be called a priest.


CathConvert said --
And exactly WHERE does Bokenkotter get his information from? I swear, I get more than tired of all these "experts" who make statements like this for dummies to lap up just because "Bokenkotter says so".

Furthermore, you HYPOCTRITE, you will take the words of Bokenkotter, or any other anti-catholic as being the absolute imprimateur of truth, but when we quote the Early Fathers who were actually there and actually write about what was happening at that time we get 9 yards of grief and equivocation from you. What makes Bokenkotter absolutely reliable for doctrinal and eklessiastical history, but the Early Fathers not reliable at all? Hmmmmmmmmm???
Bokenkotter said --
He saw his primary function (instead) to be the ministry of the word...but the image of the Christian presbyter gradually took on a sacral character.


CathConvert said--
BALONEY!!! Bokenkotter's prejudice, pure and simple
Lots of smoke - but no fire as usual CathConv.

Your lack of objectivity is "showing again".

Here you attack your own RC historians for daring to tell the truth about the RCC!!

Bokenkotter confesses at the front of his book in a section addressed to his critics - that he has NOT given justice to all the atrocities committed by the RCC during the dark ages and "almost apologetically" states that this is due to the brevity of the work - limiting it to one volume.

Well - at least he admitted it - that is more than you seem to be able to do.

In Christ,

Bob
 

CatholicConvert

New Member
C'mon Bob -- Baloney.

There are other equally noted historians, such as Anglican noted Allister Mc Grath who contradict what this guy is saying.

He has an axe to grind with Rome and it is a huge one. Do you really expect him to be objective?

And one other fact for you and DHK...it is a known fact that in the 20th century, the Church was infested with Communists and Masons who's sole purpose was to destroy the Church -- rotting Her from within. I would bet a dollar to a donut that he is one of them -- IN SPADES!!!
 

CatholicConvert

New Member
DHK --

Yes, admittedly the Church is in very poor shape right now.

BUT --

We still have the promise of Christ Jesus that She will recover from this, for the gates of hell will not prevail against Her.

We see in history a similar situation after the Nicene Constantinopolitan Council. After the council, the heresy of Arianism still held huge sway, and at one point ALL of the bishops of the East and the great majority of Christians were Arian heretics. Only the pope and St. Athanasius stood between Rome and a complete doctrinal breakdown into accepting heresy. Yet firm they stood and the Church persevered and orthodox doctrine was maintained.

This is just another dip in the road. The Church will survive. Hope you are around to see it, for it will be glorious.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
So you reject EVEN your own historians for failing to "revise history to your liking"???

Don't you find that you already have to "BE RC" to take such a view?

OR are you saying that MY OWN non-RC historians would have a "much BETTER" view of the RCC than your historians?

Be reasonable. I have gone the extra mile NOT to use MY OWN historians AND also NOT to use an OBSCURE RC historian - but RATHER a best selling author - a well known RC historian.

Please try to be even a little objective here.

In Christ,

Bob
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Thanks for the links. A few comments:
Man, DHK, WARN ME next time you do this. I just had dinner and I'm struggling to keep it down now!!!!!!!

Ugh!!!!
Your comments were not surprising Ed. You would try and deny not only the holocaust but the reign of Nero, and Constantine if it were to suit your purposes. If it isn't happening, deny it. If it hasn't happened, deny it. If it has happened, deny it. If it has happened and it is too difficult a matter to deny then just revise it; rewrite it; surgar-coat it--in other words deny it.

On the topic of the decline of the Catholic Church, I searched the web and got just less than 100,000 hits. I only posted a very few for you. I realize that in 100,000 that some may be repetitious, and some may be inaccurate, and some may not even be relevant. But surely, out of 100,000 sites, most speaking of the decline of the Catholic Church, you wouldn't want to spend your time trying to disprove every single site as false information. If you still disagree that the Catholic Church is in a state of decline, and want to prove otherwise, Ed, I'll start posting the URL's for you. You can have all the fun you want.

My suggestion to you is that a retraction is in order about the flocks of people rushing to join the Catholic Church. That is a lie and false propaganda. It is not true. Apart from the false religion of Islam, the fastest growing relgion in the world, the fastest growing movement under the umbrella in Christendom is the Charismatic movement. Aside from them, in general evangelical churches are growing far faster then the old line mainstream churches (including RCC), which have gone modernistic and liberal. There are large Baptist churches, and other evangelistic churches all across this land, while the old mainstream churches are drying up, especially the Roman Catholic churches. The RCC is losing members, their churches and cathedrals are in big trouble, as is their seminaries. And those things are not hard to prove.
DHK
 

MikeS

New Member
Originally posted by DHK:
On the topic of the decline of the Catholic Church, I searched the web and got just less than 100,000 hits. I only posted a very few for you. I realize that in 100,000 that some may be repetitious, and some may be inaccurate, and some may not even be relevant. But surely, out of 100,000 sites, most speaking of the decline of the Catholic Church, you wouldn't want to spend your time trying to disprove every single site as false information.
I searched "decline catholic church" and got 254,000 hits. I searched "growth catholic church" and got 638,000 hits.

The difference between us is that I won't try and draw a favorable conclusion from those numbers. That would just be silly, and we never get silly here on the BB, right?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by MikeS:
I searched "decline catholic church" and got 254,000 hits. I searched "growth catholic church" and got 638,000 hits.

The difference between us is that I won't try and draw a favorable conclusion from those numbers. That would just be silly, and we never get silly here on the BB, right?
Of course logic dictates that "the decline of the Catholic Church" is speaking of just that, the Catholic Church's decline.
On the other hand when one does a search of the growth of the Catholic Church, one does not know the outcome of the search. Has the growth increased or decreased. When one talks of growth, it is not always automatically assumed that there was growth. Often there is a dwindling, a shrikage, a decline, if you will. Check some of your thousands of hits and you will find out that the Catholic Church has experienced some "Negative Growth."
DHK
 

GraceSaves

New Member
Originally posted by DHK:
Your comments were not surprising Ed. You would try and deny not only the holocaust but the reign of Nero, and Constantine if it were to suit your purposes. If it isn't happening, deny it. If it hasn't happened, deny it. If it has happened, deny it. If it has happened and it is too difficult a matter to deny then just revise it; rewrite it; surgar-coat it--in other words deny it.
So he attacks your character. And in return, you attack his character. Brilliant.

Originally posted by DHK:
On the topic of the decline of the Catholic Church, I searched the web and got just less than 100,000 hits. I only posted a very few for you. I realize that in 100,000 that some may be repetitious, and some may be inaccurate, and some may not even be relevant.
You have got to be kidding me. Those numbers mean NOTHING. After the first 10-20 sites, you will be just as likely to find a site about used cars as "Catholic Church decline." After the phrase is spent, it picks up sites that employ only one of the words, and often, only half of one of the words. 100,000 sites you did not find. THE MAJORITY do not deal with the topic. That's the simple nature of search engines.

Originally posted by DHK:
But surely, out of 100,000 sites, most speaking of the decline of the Catholic Church, you wouldn't want to spend your time trying to disprove every single site as false information. If you still disagree that the Catholic Church is in a state of decline, and want to prove otherwise, Ed, I'll start posting the URL's for you. You can have all the fun you want.
What is this argument. The Catholic Church is in decline in America, yes, because of the secularization that was made so possible through increasingly liberal viewpoints, many predominant in Protestant circles (while Baptists are still pro-life, how many other churches can say they are? And we're the only ones who oppose CONTRACEPTIVE anymore, although the Christian Church has always seen its evils). This shocks you? America is secular; ALL Churches are feeling the loss. To call this a "Catholic" problem is simply an ignorant assumption.

Further, 6% of all Catholics are in America; this is not an American religion - it is a global one, which is what Jesus commanded us to do ("all nations" ring a bell?). Problems in America may or may not be problems all over the world.

FURTHER, while many cradle Catholics of the last generation or two are leaving/have lost interest because of totally improper catechesis, there ARE many people coming into the Church from other religious backgrounds that are EXTREMELY fervant in their belief and help bring new life to the Church.

You can keep your assumptions.

Originally posted by DHK:
My suggestion to you is that a retraction is in order about the flocks of people rushing to join the Catholic Church. That is a lie and false propaganda. It is not true. Apart from the false religion of Islam, the fastest growing relgion in the world, the fastest growing movement under the umbrella in Christendom is the Charismatic movement. Aside from them, in general evangelical churches are growing far faster then the old line mainstream churches (including RCC), which have gone modernistic and liberal. There are large Baptist churches, and other evangelistic churches all across this land, while the old mainstream churches are drying up, especially the Roman Catholic churches. The RCC is losing members, their churches and cathedrals are in big trouble, as is their seminaries. And those things are not hard to prove.
DHK
I love this. When the Catholic Church boasts numbers (we have the largest "raw" numbers), you say "Numbers don't matter." But when you have the biggest growth, all of a sudden, "numbers matter." Don't talk to us about propaganda, because that's exactly what your post is. "Don't be Catholic because they are in decline!" What kind of logic is that? Did you ever think that the people that are leaving ARE the liberal people, who finally realize that the Church won't change to suit their whims? GOOD! Hopefully they will reevaluate things and one day return, but THANK THE LORD that many faithful have remained and are fighting through difficult times, despite YOUR propaganda.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by GraceSaves:
I love this. When the Catholic Church boasts numbers (we have the largest "raw" numbers), you say "Numbers don't matter." But when you have the biggest growth, all of a sudden, "numbers matter." Don't talk to us about propaganda, because that's exactly what your post is. "Don't be Catholic because they are in decline!" What kind of logic is that? Did you ever think that the people that are leaving ARE the liberal people, who finally realize that the Church won't change to suit their whims? GOOD! Hopefully they will reevaluate things and one day return, but THANK THE LORD that many faithful have remained and are fighting through difficult times, despite YOUR propaganda.
Can't you check the numbers for yourself. Or, are you also of those that are in denial no matter what the data or statistics will say?

The just published findings of research conducted in 1998 on the religious beliefs and practices of Year 12 Catholic students indicate that the decline of the past 30 years continues.

Br Marcellin Flynn, the premier researcher on Catholic secondary schools in Australia, has been interviewing thousands of Year 12 students and teachers since 1972 and making his findings available in a series of thought-provoking publications. These remain essential reading for Church authorities and all Catholics concerned about the religious character of their schools.

Eight years ago, at the time Br Flynn's The Culture of Catholic Schools was published, AD2000 published a review article titled "How 'Catholic' are Catholic schools?" (February 1994). It quoted Br Flynn's conclusion: "A consistent, rapid decline in the religious dimension of the [Catholic] schools has taken place over this period [1972-1990] and ... there are no signs that it is about to be arrested".

Catholic character
The sequel to this study - Catholic Schools 2000: A Longitudinal Study of Year 12 Students in Catholic Schools 1972-1982-1990-1998 - is based on the responses of 8,310 Year 12 students and 1,657 teachers at 70 schools in NSW and the ACT. It was co-authored by Br Flynn and Dr Magdalena Mok.

While one might query the inclusion of many quotes from writers like Thomas Groome and Fr Richard McBrien - given their dissenting positions on some Catholic teachings (and the Australian and US Bishops' criticism of McBrien's Catholicism) - the value of Catholic Schools 2000 transcends such reservations.

This lies in the masses of statistical findings, particularly those regarding the "Catholic" character of these schools, which confirm Br Flynn's earlier prediction of a "consistent, rapid decline".

This clearly prompted the initiative of the Melbourne Archdiocese under Archbishop George Pell to introduce a set of religion texts based on the Catechism of the Catholic Church - with these texts now being introduced as well in the Sydney Archdiocese, since Dr Pell became its new Archbishop in 2001.

Given the Flynn-Mok research was undertaken in 1998, it would be premature to estimate the long-term impact of the new RE texts, which are still in process of being introduced into schools.

As the co-authors remind us (p. 82), "Catholic schools have no reason to exist apart from the Church," and a Catholic education "cannot be called Catholic if it is not faithful to the Catholic Church and its living traditions" (p. 270).

The latest figure for regular Mass attendance by young Catholics in the 16-25 age group (as revealed in the 1996 Catholic Church Life Survey) of less than 5 percent does not reflect well on the impact of a Catholic education - nor, for that matter, the condition of the Australian Catholic community generally.

Flynn and Mok's conclusion certainly underlines this (p. 321): "There is little evidence at present that the drift of youth away from active participation in the life of the Church is about to be arrested ... the alienation of adults and youth from the Catholic Church today remains one of the most pressing pastoral problems of our time."

While the drawing power of Catholic schools remains as strong as ever - with almost 20 percent of the Australian school age population attending Catholic schools - the reasons most students are sent to these schools have little connection with their specific Catholicity. The priorities of today's Catholic parents (and students) are overwhelmingly secular: vocational, academic, personal and social development are all preferred to religious development.

A telling statistic is that, with Australia's Catholic population at about 27 percent of the national total, and about 20 percent of the total school population attending Catholic schools, roughly 75 percent of Catholic parents are currently sending their children to Catholic schools. However, the rate of regular church attendance across the country is between 15-20 percent, which means only a small proportion of parents sending their children to Catholic schools are regular Mass-goers. That hardly eases the task of even the most committed, practising Catholic teachers - armed with the best possible RE texts - to cultivate in students a love and acceptance of the Faith.
Catholic School Decline

DHK
 

GraceSaves

New Member
Just sent to me by one of my best friends, Adam Rust, who just started seminary this month:

http://www.cdom.org/wtc/wtc_pages/cover_story1.html

And, apparently you did not even read my post. Congratulations on finding a story that is directed towards your inquirey. Now, if you want to follow through with what you originally said, compile me a list of 50,000 such websites, because only "some" are invalid or irrelevant. So, I'd say that no more than 1/2 would represent "some," as opposed to "most," which is my stance. I look forward to your list, DHK.

Google and other search engines are not cataloguers; although Yahoo does have a catalogue, and it searches it first, what you primarily are getting is individual word searches. You have to put quotation marks to get PHRASE searches. Want my google results?

"Catholic Church decline" - 8 results
"decline of Catholic Church" - 18 results

THOSE are accurate. Your "100,000" results is NOT accurate.

So, DHK, in reply, NO, I am not "hiding" behind anything. I was pointing out how your numbers are 100,000% misleading.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by GraceSaves:

What is this argument. The Catholic Church is in decline in America, yes, because of the secularization that was made so possible through increasingly liberal viewpoints, many predominant in Protestant circles (while Baptists are still pro-life, how many other churches can say they are? And we're the only ones who oppose CONTRACEPTIVE anymore, although the Christian Church has always seen its evils). This shocks you? America is secular; ALL Churches are feeling the loss. To call this a "Catholic" problem is simply an ignorant assumption.

Further, 6% of all Catholics are in America; this is not an American religion - it is a global one, which is what Jesus commanded us to do ("all nations" ring a bell?). Problems in America may or may not be problems all over the world.

FURTHER, while many cradle Catholics of the last generation or two are leaving/have lost interest because of totally improper catechesis, there ARE many people coming into the Church from other religious backgrounds that are EXTREMELY fervant in their belief and help bring new life to the Church.

You can keep your assumptions.
These are your assumptions, your misconcepions, your unsubstantiated "facts" (sic). Who are the "many people coming into the Church from other religious backgrounds?" Do we have any honest, objective statistics here? No, just unfounded propaganda. I can give you hard facts how the Catholic Church is diminishing in size; how it is on the decline; how scandals all over the world are hurting it. The Catholic Church is in trouble, and we have a bunch of Catholic apologists on this board who unashamedly will lie about it just to save face as a Catholic. Incredible!!
DHK
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by GraceSaves:
THOSE are accurate. Your "100,000" results is NOT accurate.

So, DHK, in reply, NO, I am not "hiding" behind anything. I was pointing out how your numbers are 100,000% misleading.
I was not being misleading with my results. I did use quotations in my search. One of those sites was this one, which both you and Brother Ed should find of some interest. The Catholic Church attendance is waning. Perhaps there are some reasons why (not that they are necessarily the right solutions).

The Catholic Church in Canada
Reporter: Ioanna Roumeliotis
July 15, 2002

CHURCH ATTENDANCE
Jennifer and Alex Andrejin haven't attended a church service in years but they recently attended for their daughter's baptism.
"It gives Reanna a basis to meet other people, a family and community in which to grow," says Jennifer Andrejin.
"They may have been away for a while and baptism is an opportunity for them to feel maybe the sacred again," says Deacon Tom McKeogh of St. Joseph's parish in Toronto.

Weekly attendance among Canada's 14 million Catholics has been on a steady decline for decades. A survey of 3,500 Canadians conducted in 2000 shows that outside Quebec, 32 per cent go to church regularly, compared to 75 per cent in the 1950s. In Quebec, which accounts for about 24 per cent of Canada's population, the weekly attendance has dropped to 20 per cent, from 88 per cent.

Despite the decline, the survey found most lapsed Catholics have not lost touch with their religious roots. They often return for rites of passage, such as weddings and baptisms, and say they are open to more involvement.

Reginald Bibby
Reginald Bibby, who conducted the survey, is a research chair in the sociology department at the University of Lethbridge in Alberta. He has been surveying Canadians about religion since 1975.

"People are saying that they are receptive to greater involvement if they can find that the Church can touch their life in a significant way," he says. "They are looking for ministry. They are looking for the Church to be able to speak, for example, to spiritual needs and interests that they have."
The spiritual market may be out there. But there is less blind faith.

Milton Chan
Milton Chan, who is a practicing Catholic and is also gay, is part of a group that fights the Church's stand on issues such as homosexuality and contraception.

"First and foremost the Catholic Church has to be willing to listen to what people are saying, have to open its eyes to the changing world," says Chan. "Jesus doesn't come to the world to tell us to keep following the rules."
Critics say the rules have also hurt the Church's appeal as a vocation.
In the late 1960s there were 21,191 priests in Canada. By 2000, that number had dropped to 9,832.

Francois Brassard and his wife
Francois Brassard became a priest, and then he got married. Now the church doesn't recognize him. He and his wife often meet with other married priests to practice their religion.

Brassard says community faith groups are growing. He says the Church would grow too if it shed medieval traditions.
"They would definitely come more alive and as a result of that you would see people flocking to whatever form the church takes," says Brassard.

Tom McKeogh
But the message at St. Joseph's parish is that faith prevails.

"I don't hear anybody panicking about it," says Deacon McKeogh. "What I hear really is (that) we have to start over again in some ways. Nobody is saying we have to go out and bring them in droves. People come back if they're touched… If we're doing the right thing, going about it the right way, they come back."

Tradition pulled the Andrejins back, but it's not clear for how long. They have brought their child to the faith, but it may not be enough to renew their own.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/features/catholic/attendance.html

DHK
 

GraceSaves

New Member
DHK,

How many news stories out there focus on positive things, and how many on negative things? Can you give me a ratio?
 

CatholicConvert

New Member
DHK --

You claim that I denied, refused to admit, and put a spin on the Church, and if given the chance would deny the other atrocities which the members of the Catholic Church have done.

Well, he sure doesn't SOUND Catholic to me, and if he is, he is one of the numerous reasons the Church is in the sorry state She is in now.
Does that look to you like I am denying anything?

Sir, it is one thing to try to discuss with someone who is attempting to keep the discussion honest and above board. It is quite another to try any discussion with a person who is a liar, devious, has an agenda to pursue regardless of what else is said, and in general acts like a moron.

End of communication with you. This channel is closed.

MORON!!!
 

MikeS

New Member
DHK,

I decided to play your little search game with different words, like "Baptist" and "Christian" and "Evangelical" and "Fundamentalist." I cannot tell you how shocked I was to find hundreds of thousands of hits referring to "decline"!

Silly, silly, silly, silly, silly....
 

GraceSaves

New Member
DHK,

You said that you used quotation marks. Please give me the exact phrase that you put in quotation marks, and the search engine, so that I might reproduce your results. Thanks.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by MikeS:
DHK,

I decided to play your little search game with different words, like "Baptist" and "Christian" and "Evangelical" and "Fundamentalist." I cannot tell you how shocked I was to find hundreds of thousands of hits referring to "decline"!

Silly, silly, silly, silly, silly....
Here is an interesting website. It gives statistics; that is all. Church attendance between 1989 and 1998 from various denominations.

In those years the Catholics reported a decrease from 1,715,900 of those who responded to the survey to 1,230.100—a decrease of 685,800. Both the Baptists and Pentecostal churches reported increases during those years. These churches out of that list would be the most evangelical.
Church Attendance

Roman Catholics have a totally different way of defining membership. In contrast to Baptists who only baptize adults, Catholics baptize infants and tend to count families, not individuals, according to Professor Brian Froehle of Georgetown University. Millions of Catholics who no longer attend Mass still identify themselves as Catholics, if asked.

Hispanics have flooded Catholic churches in border states without registering as members. Southwestern dioceses tend to estimate membership.

The overall growth of Catholics masks the fact that as Catholics get older, many become Protestant. Gallup Polls reveal that 29 percent of Americans under age 30 are Catholic vs. only 23 percent of those over 50. By contrast, the percentage who are Protestant rises from 45 percent of those under age 30 to 64 percent over age 50.

The good news is that church attendance in America is two to four times that of Europe.
Copyright 1999 Michael J. McManus.
Here is another revealing quote that does account for any increase that might occur in some localized areas. Catholics do not count their members the same way Baptists do. That makes a huge difference in how many are Catholic and how many are Baptists. The results are therefore skewed in favour of the Catholics by a large margin. It certainly is not by converts that the Catholic Church has any increase; it is by family. Again, honesty is the best policy.

Barna noted that the Catholic Church has not been hard hit by defection to date. "It appears that many Catholics are waiting to see how their church handles the situation before making any final decisions. Again, there are conflicting factors that many Catholics are weighing. On the one hand, Pope John Paul II is very popular among Catholics and is widely trusted as a man of integrity. On the other hand, there is constant discussion of his health and possible abdication of the papacy, producing a greater sense of anxiety and imminent instability. The researcher also discussed the options being considered by many Catholics. "On the one hand there is a growing openness among Catholics to participation in non-Catholic churches. On the other hand, many of the churches whose traditions and practices are most easily understood and adopted by Catholics have embraced gay ministers or are involved in debating the acceptance of homosexual leaders. Given the nature of the crisis facing the Catholic Church, that has tempered the interest of many Catholics in jumping ship to a 'Catholic-friendly' denomination."
Barna Research

There is plenty of evidence that the Catholic Church is on the decline, and for various reasons. You can say what you wish, change the topic, but this one fact remains the same.
DHK
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by GraceSaves:
DHK,

You said that you used quotation marks. Please give me the exact phrase that you put in quotation marks, and the search engine, so that I might reproduce your results. Thanks.
"Catholic Church" decline

I used the google search engine.
 

GraceSaves

New Member
DHK,

Most kids in my home town (that are Baptist) were typically "saved" by the time they were 9-11 years old. That is hardly adulthood. Call it a southern thing, but most of the people my age (I'm 20) had early "saved" experiences. I assume, that once they are saved, they are included in membership?
 

GraceSaves

New Member
Some things to consider:

The Baptist Church is autonomous. The Catholic Church is universal. When I search anything for Baptist Church, I usually get hits on random specific congregations, rather than "Baptists" as a whole, which is not surprising considering each church is independant.

Let's be honest here: which churches get the most press (and as we know, almost all press is bad press these days?) The ones currently marked by scandal (ie, Catholic, Episcopal, etc). You're bound to find more negative perspectives on these churches.

With the Catholic Church especially, and it's anti-abortion stance, as well as its firm stand against homosexuality, many people in the liberal media have an agenda to demonize the Church. I am fully aware that the Baptist Church stands on the same ground, but the Baptist Church is not a visible organization, and one cannot attack "Baptists" because there is always the "autonomous" card that one can use in defense.

These numbers, for the most part, are North American statitics, no? Are you surprised in ANY loss of Church membership with the moral decay in this nation? I praise God for the good that have remained, and pray for the fallen.

Only 6% of all Catholics worldwide are in America. It's hardly fair to say that these statistics do or do not reflect globally.

What is the point of this argument anyway? That the Church with the most growth is the correct church? That is something that changes according to social patterns. Now that I think about it, what is the basis of this argument in the first place?

Lastly, I replicated your search, and by the 5-6 page, I began to run into predominantly invalid sites dealing with the topic at hand. That means 50-60 sites. Even if it went to 20 pages, that's only 200 sites out of the listed 119,000 I got on the search.
 
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