Wine & Alcohol part 37

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. (James 1:5-8)

 

Dear Brother,

You have plucked one verse out of a passage and taken it out of context. That’s what cults due! Here is the whole passage:

Proverbs 23:29-35
29Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. 33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. 34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. 35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

This passage is referring to drunkenness. Verse 29-35:
“Who hath woe? Who hath sorrow? ..” “..They that tarry long at the wine”
Verse 33: “Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.”
Verse 35: “..they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.“

I’m still waiting for the verse (or passage) that says that any drinking by a Christian is sin. I will give you a hint, you won’t find one. Instead the Bible offers MANY STRONG warnings about alcohol and there are MANY examples of abuse in the Bible. I don’t know why GOD did not make all drinking sin. I am not to question Him. I just take His word by faith.

In the love of Christ!

 

Then why not just drink iodine. It is a good disinfectant too; in fact better. I doubt that iodine will hold the temptation over you to become drunk.
DHK

 

Wrong, Darrell.

Solomon was showing the effects of alcohol. , i.e. redness of eyes, woe, contentions, wounds without cause, etc. Then, in verse 31, Solomon warns the reader, stay away from the drink all together. Then he continues to show what will happen if they are deceived into thinking it is ok to partake of it.

No, my friend, it is not out of context. Solomon said 'Look thou not,' he meant exactly that.

Answer the question. How can one not experience alcoholic beverage without partaking of it?

 

Amen, DHK!

As a matter of fact, since God's Word refers to wine as being poison, why don't they advocate drinking hemlock? or cyanide?

 

Did Jesus drink iodine? I want to be like Jesus.

 

If you take His Word by faith, then you cannot dismiss 'Look thou not.' Do not experience it. There is no getting around that.

 

Jesus did not drink iodine. Neither did He drink alcoholic beverages.

 

No, neither can it be demonstrated that he drank any fermented beverage. If you want to be like Jesus you will abstain from alcohol.
DHK

 

What was it that John the Baptist didn't drink but Jesus did? (Luke 7:33-34)

 

I don't dismiss "look thou not" I keep the passage in context. I’m Still waiting for Biblical proof for your claim. No plucking partial sentences from verses allowed.

Christ provides freedom, but we are not abuse it.

In the love of Christ

 

I'm still waiting for biblical proof of your claim...that Jesus made and drank fermented wine.

Proverbs 23:29-30 describes a drunken state; vs. 31-32 is a WARNING NOT to even LOOK upon fermented wine. It doesn't say "after you drink the fermented wine, don't look upon it" If you say that vs. 31-32 describes a drunkard, YOU are taking these verses out of context.

 

In Luke 7:33-35, Jesus said:

Luke 7:33-35 33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. 34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! 35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

The first part of this passage we will deal with is the case regarding John the Baptist’s Abstinence. Some in their zeal for the abstinence cause have incorrectly used this as a case for total abstinence from strong and intoxicating drinks, and have ran into deep problems when faced with the explaining Jesus statement that He had come eating and drinking.

The point is that John the Baptist’s case is not one that can be used for the cause of total abstinence. On announcing John’s birth, the angel said:

Luke 1:15 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

This was a statement declaring that John would adopt a life long Nazarite vow, which would mean that he would have to abstain from everything from the vine, whether it was grapes, grape juice or fermented wine. As was stated earlier in another chapter, this corresponds to the command given by God to Moses in Numbers chapter six verses one to four, which reads:

Numbers 6:1-4 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD: 3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. 4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.

Although Jesus was a Nazarene because He was brought up there, He was not a Nazarite, in that He had not taken this vow. This is why He was free to eat and drink the fruit of the vine, hence Christ’s statement that He had come eating and drinking. This answers the question of those who pose the argument that the term “drinking” as Jesus used it, was being used in the same sense as we understand it today. In that He was saying that He was a drinker of alcoholic, fermented, or intoxicating beverages.

The Greek language also refutes this suggestion, because a different word is always used to distinguish a drinker of intoxicating beverages from a drinker of something pure such as water or milk. The word Jesus uses to describe His drinking is ‘pino,’ the ordinary word for drink. This is different from the word His enemies use to describe His alleged drinking, as we shall see.

Christ’s enemies called Him a winebibber (a wine drinker), the original word is oinopotes; from oinos, wine and potes, a drinker. When the word oinos (wine) is used in Scripture it means wine in its fermented or unfermented state; but when it is compounded with potes to produce oinopotes, a wine drinker, it always means a drinker of alcoholic wine.

In our opening text Jesus refutes the false accusations of His enemies by saying, “But wisdom is justified of all her children.” The Amplified Bible states:

Yet wisdom is vindicated [shown to be true and divine] by all her children [that is, by their life, character and deeds.] (Luke 7:35)

Ther original word translated “justified” is dikaioo, which primarily means, “to be deemed to be right.” Jesus was therefore saying that the accusations aimed at Him by His enemies that He was a glutton and a wine drinker were false. And that He would be vindicated or shown to be right by the lives of His children or disciples.

Christ’s statement was correct because we read earlier in Acts 2:13, His disciples were accused of being drunk with new wine (sweet grape juice). This however was not a literal accusation but mockery. This was because it was known that the disciples of Christ did not drink intoxicating wine.

We can thus see clearly from the scriptures, that Christ, who is the personification of Wisdom, was not a wine drinker, and He all but states it word for word!



taken from Wine in the Bible and the Case for Total Abstinence by Leighton G. Campbell pp. 139 - 141

 

I quoted the whole verse, and yet your eyes are blinded to the light that is clearly found in it.

 

Luke 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
Jesus never admitted to drinking any alcoholic beverage including fermeneted wine. He was only accused of it.
If I was at a secular wedding and was holding a glass of coca-cola some may accuse me of having coke and rum, a common drink. They would assume that I would be drinking because of my presence at a place where most were driniking alcoholic beverages. That doesn't make it so.
Jesus was falsely accused. Look at the verse:
ye say: He never admitted to being gluttonous and a winebibber! Are you inferring along with the Pharisees that the Lord was a sinner?
DHK

 

Of course the charges the Pharisees made were false. I am not saying that Jesus was a drunkard or a glutton.

I am focusing on what Jesus Himself said, though. He said "John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine" and then He said "The Son of man is come eating and drinking". So what was it that Jesus Himself said that He drank, but John didn't?

 

Christ would never go contrary to Scripture. He drank grape juice, and was falsely accused of drinking fermented wine. John the Baptist was a Nazarite and a typical Jew like Peter or John. They would not intermingle with non-Jews. Jesus would "eat and drink" with the Gentiles and sinners (publicans) like Zaccheus. "Drink" in this case doesn't mean alcoholic, it simply means to share a meal. He would socialize with the untouchables of society. That is the meaning.
DHK

 

As I posted earlier in this post:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=843847&postcount=233

Jesus could not have been drinking alcoholic beverages. His answer 'Wisdom is justified by her children,' shows the fact He was refuting their false claims that He was drinking alcohol.

 

His Blood Spoke My Name:

Yes, I believe you did quote the entire verse, sorry. What I meant is plucking a partial sentence from a verse and building your "all drinking is sin" argument. The passage refers to drunkenness.

In Christ

 

Don't really have to establish a pattern of behavior in Jesus practical life to justify something I may have freedom to do. I am on the internet, an activity Jesus never took part in. I live in memphis and you live in Cleveland, MS, so I bet you eat or have eaten pork (BBQ). I could name hundreds of things I do every day that Jesus never did. If I concede that Jesus NEVER consumed alcohol, a fact I can neither prove nor disprove, that doesn't imply that partaking is sinful.

Some additional sources to stir the pot or shake the martini glass:smilewinkgrin:

23:29-35. The 18th saying. These verses present the longest and most articulate warning in Proverbs against drunkenness (cf. vv. 20-21; 20:1; 31:4-5). Six questions call attention to emotional problems (woe and sorrow), social problems (strife and complaints), and physical problems (bruises-from beatings or bumping into things while staggering-and bloodshot eyes) that stem from lingering long over wine and mixed wine (mimsoḵ, used only here and in Isa. 65:11). Wine seems attractive (Prov. 23:31); it is red, sparkling, and smooth-the senses of sight and taste. But eventually (in the end; cf. 5:4; 14:12; 16:25; 19:20; 25:8; 28:23; 29:21) it is as devastating and painful as a snake bite.

Drunkenness also leads to mental problems (23:33): hallucinations and imagining confusing (“perverse or abnormal”; see comments on 2:12) things. Physically a drunkard is off balance as he walks. In his stupor he may imagine himself moving like a sailor swaying at the top of a ship’s rigging. Also a drunkard is insensitive to pain when people hit him (cf. “bruises, ” 23:29). Sensing his stupor he still longs to escape by having another drink. Alcohol controls him; he is a slave to wine. (Walvoord, John F., Roy B. Zuck, and Dallas Theological Seminary. The Bible Knowledge Commentary : An Exposition of the Scriptures. Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1983-c1985.)