Wine & Alcohol part 37

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

God's Word condemns the use of alcoholic wine; especially today when the wine of today is even stronger than the wine of Bible times.

Jesus did not make alcoholic wine. Those who spread lies like, 'Jesus made fermented wine' and, 'Paul told Timothy to drink fermented wine' apparently do not rightly divide the Word of Truth.

The wine that was prescribed to Timothy could not have been alcoholic wine. Doctors do not prescribe alcohol for stomach problems. As a matter of fact, doctors will tell one not to drink alcohol if one has stomach problems, as alcohol adds to the irritation already there.

Too many want to twist the scripture to justify their own lust for that drink that has destroyed homes, lives, health, and souls.

 

[webdog]

God's Word condemns the use of alcoholic wine; especially today when the wine of today is even stronger than the wine of Bible times

Stteeeerrrriiikkke!

Jesus did not make alcoholic wine. Those who spread lies like, 'Jesus made fermented wine' and, 'Paul told Timothy to drink fermented wine' apparently do not rightly divide the Word of Truth.

Steeeerrriiiikkkeee!

The wine that was prescribed to Timothy could not have been alcoholic wine. Doctors do not prescribe alcohol for stomach problems. As a matter of fact, doctors will tell one not to drink alcohol if one has stomach problems, as alcohol adds to the irritation already there.

Steeeerrrrikkkke! Yer out!

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Stteeeerrrriiikkke!

Steeeerrriiiikkkeee!

Steeeerrrrikkkke! Yer out!

Rather than play the game of 'Steeeerrrrikkkke, yer out', prove to HBSMN, using scripture, that he is wrong. If you cannot prove he is wrong by using scripture, I am afraid that it is not him that is out, but the ones who advocate the alcohol.

Apparently no one read or believes the 75 scriptures HBSMN posted on a previous page concerning alcohol.

 

[PeterM]

Ok we can read that a widow and deacon are not to drink to much wine. and a Bishop it says not to be given to wine. as under influence of it. Paul told Timothy no longer drink water but drink wine for thy stomachs sake. This wine will kill bacteria in the stomach and grape juice will not.

Two points I would like to make is this. Christ said you do not put new wine in old bottles less the bottle burst and spill the wine. Well I did not understand this until I learned bottles were animal skins. So new skins would stretch as the wine fermented while old animal skins become hard and dried out would burst and not give.

another I did not understand was the wedding when one at the wedding said that he had saved the best for last. the new wine vs. old wine. Well today old wine is considered better, why would new wine be better back then? well its because of the animal skin again. oxygen would slowly seep through the pores of the skins and turn the wine into vinegar. glass bottles were not invented until the mid 1600s

also I believe as unleavened bread represents his sinless body Grape wine represents his blood. The wine is pure like his blood and preserves.

but if it offends thy brother then one should not kill thy brother with it. Should not be used in mix company where some are drinking to excess. But when it comes to communion and for thy stomachs sake then I believe one must use wine.

In our churches we have and Elder that makes the wine his self for communion as our sisters make the bread as well. I think making it yourself is better than buying it because that wine is only used in its place for the purpose of the church.

the ones that condemn the use of wine in its place, i hope your not useing cough syrup. .........JBS

If I am understanding your post correctly, you are saying that "wine" should be used for the Lord's Supper. While I do not condemn such practice, when the Supper was instituted by Jesus, the "cup" used would have been pure unfermented juice as all leavening agents were to be removed from the home as the leaven was symbolic of sin. If your church chooses to use wine instead of juice, that is fine IMO. But to claim that the beverage at the Last Supper was fermented wine is incorrect.

I am not a legalist about this as I have often officiated the Table using leavened bread. I think we often take the symobolic images too far and make them hills we die on in ministry.

 

[av1611jim]

Stteeeerrrriiikkke!

Steeeerrriiiikkkeee!

Steeeerrrrikkkke! Yer out!

I thought we were talking about booze but apparently we have switched subjects to baseball.

Another baseball term comes to my mind concerning the 2 drink or not 2 drink controversy.
Sacrifice.
In baseball a sacrifice is when one hits the ball in such a way as to cause himself to be 'tagged out' in order that his team mates may advance around the bases. He 'sacrifices' his own hopes for a scored run for the good of the team.

hmmmmm, lessee now, dint Jesus say something like that?
'DENY yourself,take up thy cross and come, follow me.' (Loosely quoted)

So if we are talking baseball it seems like there are those who are unwilling to sacrifice pleasure for the good of the team (read: Christian church testimony here).

 

[PeterM]

Rather than play the game of 'Steeeerrrrikkkke, yer out', prove to HBSMN, using scripture, that he is wrong. If you cannot prove he is wrong by using scripture, I am afraid that it is not him that is out, but the ones who advocate the alcohol.

Apparently no one read or believes the 75 scriptures HBSMN posted on a previous page concerning alcohol.

While the Scriptures have little to say that is positive on alcoholic beverages, there is NO language that specifically and catagorically forbids the practice. The language and words used to even denote "wine" or "strong drink" are generic terms that leave us in a bit of ambiguity.

If you make the personal choice not to consume alcohol as you are led be the Holy Spirit, you have my support and encouragement in living in obedience, but to apply the broad brush to all believers and then to condemn the practice is a greater wrong because it divides the kingdom.

I think Paul says it best here, "13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. 20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. rBlessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. (Romans 14:13-23)

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Why is it people love to quote Romans 14 and say it is our liberty in Christ? Our liberty in Christ is not a liberty to sin, but rather from sin. For every verse one gives showing that it is ok to drink alcoholic beverages, I can, using that verse in context, show it is not ok to drink alcohol.

The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy, yes. But not our own righteousness. The flesh sees nothing wrong with drinking alcohol. Yet the Word of God tells us we are not to be like the world. As av1611jim said, we are to deny self, deny our fleshly lust for alcohol and other vices, take up our cross daily, keep our bodies under subjection and follow Christ.

 

[Helen]

Folks, there was no refrigeration in Jesus' day. Passover was in the spring. No grapes are growing then. Therefore no fresh grape juice.

It was real wine at Passover. It was real wine at the marriage at Cana. And yes, wine is now understood (as it was then) to help with some types of ulcers. The alcohol helps combat the bacteria in the open sores of the stomach and the flavanoids in the grapes help with healing and softening the scar tissue so the stomach can operate normally when healed.

Look up grapes flavanoids on Google and see for yourself.

Wine is a gift from God. Just like music, it can be used to His glory or to our harm. It's a choice we have.

 

[Chris L.]

One thing very noticeable in all threads about alcohol is that gluttony comes up. Yes, it is a fact that gluttony is a sin. Yes, it is a fact that many Baptists fall short in that area (like church pot lucks). Yes, it is a fact that the sin is not addressed from the pulpit very much.

I've never heard it preached from a pulpit.

What does that have to do with alcohol? Does the fact that one person is a glutton make alcohol any less destructive? It seems like a contest. My sin is worse than your sin. The solution is to start teaching all the things the Bible speaks against, not to have some license to drink until others stop eating.

But people are not willing to separate, ridicule or shun someone who is obese. Why? The next time that huge guy at the pot luck comes back with his 4th plate, why don't you tell him to put the fork down or you will separate from him?

For me, drinking alcohol is wrong. Yes, it is techncially not in the Bible not to drink, but it certainly is to get drunk, which is why the vast majority drink.

In certain countries they drinking is encouraged and celebrated. In other countries drunkeness is frowned upon, and many people drink wine as a matter of course with their food and don't think twice about it.

We meed to get out of our own little universe once in a while and realize there's a whole world out there where some don't have the same problems as we do.

Is it a good example for my kids?

If they see their parents drinking alcohol in moderation and without getting drunk, they may be less inclined to have problems with it. Children have a natural curiousity and will want to find out what's so bad about the forbidden, sinful, evil and mysterious alcohol.

Is it a good example for the people I teach in Sunday School?

You don't drink in Sunday school do you?

Is it a good witness?

I don't think most sensible Christians would recommend that we drink in public on a regular basis.

What am I gaining by making a technical case that it is ok to drink?

You would be speaking the truth.

From my days in the Navy, its not a good idea for me to drink anyhow.

I don't blame you there. If I was stuck on some miserable ship with a bunch of Navy guys, I'd probably drink too.

What right do I have to tell others not to drink, none, only encourage.

Amen! :thumbsup:

 

[AF Guy N Paradise]

AF Guy,

One thought on the 'if I'm wrong, will it really matter?"...

It very well could matter. Revelation tells us that among those who will find their part in the lake of fire will be 'all liars.'Now that is something that should cause every one who claims to be a christian to delve more deeper into the Word of God to make sure that they are right.

If it is a lie to say 'It is not a sin to drink' because God's Word clearly shows the it is a sin, then according to God's Word, it does matter. As Christians, we are to guard our hearts, our minds, our tongue, and our actions.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:

Matthew 7:21-23 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yes, my friend, it does matter what we think or say.

There are many topics that very good Christian people disagree on and I do not claim to be right on many of them. I agree that we need to practice Acts 17:11 often and constantly seek the truth and what is right and wrong in the eyes of God.

However, it sounds as if you are saying that only the ones that are 100% right on every topic will be in Heaven while all the others will be in the lake of fire. If that is the case I don’t think many people will make it to Heaven. I know all of the answers are in God’s Word and I believe it to be perfect and I also know that it says that He is not the author of confusion. But, I for one seem to know less everyday in my walk with the Lord and will never have all of the answers until I get to Heaven.

BTW, on this topic, I agree with you for the most part.

 

[Chris L.]

One thing I have learned in these discussions. Most of the defenders of drink/alcohol are themselves drinkers. I say "MOST". Not all but most.

Some of us are only after the truth. Our personal feelings about alcohol or our past problems with it or lack thereof, don't make any difference. Truth is truth.

Another thing I have learned in these discussions. The defenders almost without exception say "Jesus drank it!!!" As if...

Jesus also ate fish, much to the chagrin of the vegetarians, and anything that is ok with Jesus is ok with me.

Another thing I have learned is that the users/ defenders all say "I don't have a problem with it".

Do you believe they're lying?

Here is the rub. You people who are defending "Demon Rum" in the name of 'christian liberty' haven't really thought it through have you? Don't you realize that you are supporting a drug which has caused more harm in this world throughout history than all the wars combined?

Where do you get that statistic? Who says we all support alcohol? Some of us here choose not to drink.

And you are helping to promote the concept that "just a nip or two' never hurt anybody? Must we remind you that all it takes is 'just a nip or two' by that soccer mom down the street and BAMMMO! you just lost your child to yet another driver who is not in control of their vehicle? That nice lady down the street who drives all the kids to soccer practice? Certainly not her! Why she's just the sweetest thing! Statistics prove that it is NOT the drunkards killing our kids, dads, moms, etc.. on the roads because of booze, it is, more often than not, the average "social" drinker. And yet you people, who claim the name of Christ, SUPPORT that drug???

Who said anybody here promotes certain "concepts" concerning alcohol or approves of drunk driving? Why do you assume that we are all die-hard drinkers looking for excuses to justify our "sins"?

Oh and by the way; allow me to shoot that red herring. Food has NEVER caused someone to go into a rage and beat their own child to death, so get OFF that lame comparison.

No, but a lack of food has caused people to eat their children! Seriously though, obesity can harm the temple of the Holy Spirit as bad as alcohol can, and frankly, I find it embarrasing that so many in my country and in the churches representing Christ are so appallingly overweight.

Don't you know how many millions of dollars in medical bills and increased insurance rates this is costing us? Or how about all the grief that it causes familes when their loved ones develop Type-2 diabetes or drop dead of a heart attack at the age of 55? You see how these types of arguments can be turned around? So let's be fair here in preaching on all our nations ailments and not just choose a particular one as a hobby horse.

 

[Gwyneth]

I tried and tried not become involved in this but .............
1. take a bunch of grapes, (note the powdery deposits on them)... this is natural yeast.
2. sqeeze the juice from them ........ as you must to obtain a liquid to drink.
3. the juice contains natural sugars.
sugar & yeast & warmth = alchohol.
4. warmth will start the fermentation process fairly quickly ..... and where Jesus was at that time , was a warm country.
Fermentation begins as soon as sugar and yeast come into contact with each other in a warm environment. .. and the longer it is kept the more alcoholic it gets.... as it was Spring when this beverage was consumed (to quote Helen ) it would have been quite well fermented.
With respect,
Gwyneth

 

[PeterM]

Folks, there was no refrigeration in Jesus' day. Passover was in the spring. No grapes are growing then. Therefore no fresh grape juice.

It was real wine at Passover. It was real wine at the marriage at Cana. And yes, wine is now understood (as it was then) to help with some types of ulcers. The alcohol helps combat the bacteria in the open sores of the stomach and the flavanoids in the grapes help with healing and softening the scar tissue so the stomach can operate normally when healed.

Look up grapes flavanoids on Google and see for yourself.

Wine is a gift from God. Just like music, it can be used to His glory or to our harm. It's a choice we have.

It is difficult to make such a definite claim based on available scholary research. Because of the levitical demand for the removal of all leavening agents from the home... including wine. How they arrived at that necessary conclusion is relatively unknown. There is a definite biblical distinction between "strong drink" and wine.

By the NT, wine was a different thing altogether as Greek influence had at that point taken root. Water was often mixed with the general beverage that may have been slightly fermented but not fully. Water was used to cut down the mixture. The Mishnah records a mixture of three/one during passover.

 

[Gwyneth]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Many of your favorite foods and drinks are probably fermented. For instance:[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bread - Cheese - Wine - Beer - Mead - Cider[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chocolate - Coffee - Tea[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Pickles - Sauerkraut - Kimchi[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Miso - Tempeh - Soy sauce - Vinegar[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yogurt - Kefir - Kombucha[/FONT]
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geut.vqexEzi4BeRGlzbkF/SIG=11v6p7a2c/EXP=1156447023/**http%3a//www.wardsci.com/category.asp%3fc=759
​

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Philippians 4:8 tells us we are to think only on those things that are honest, pure, of good report, lovely, etc.

How can one even consider drinking that which has a bad report such as alcoholic beverages? So many have died because of it, so it cannot be good. Alcoholic beverages because of their ability to destroy brain cells and destroy other vital organs of the body certainly are not pure. Solomon wrote that wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging, so therefore, alcoholic beverages are not honest in the least, and many are deceived by it. What is lovely about a drink that causes so much grief and woe in a person's life?

 

[PeterM]

I guess the passage in Romans 14 is either unclear or rejected by many in this forum (and probably the church). When Paul states that nothing is unclean, that includes wine/alcohol. If it is wrong for YOU then be obedient to that, but do not force another to be obedient to your conscience.

This is not a black and white issue, and it cannot be made into one!

 

[SoulWinningLady]

AF Guy,

One thought on the 'if I'm wrong, will it really matter?"...

It very well could matter. Revelation tells us that among those who will find their part in the lake of fire will be 'all liars.'Now that is something that should cause every one who claims to be a christian to delve more deeper into the Word of God to make sure that they are right.

If it is a lie to say 'It is not a sin to drink' because God's Word clearly shows the it is a sin, then according to God's Word, it does matter. As Christians, we are to guard our hearts, our minds, our tongue, and our actions.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:

Matthew 7:21-23 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yes, my friend, it does matter what we think or say.

:thumbsup:
Good post. I wanted to add, that it is possible that they took the strong drink or wine and just offered it as a drink offering, not actually consume it. Your are right in saying this in no way justifies drinking on occasion.
Are we jewish? NO
Do we celebrate this feast? NO
Should we drink wine? NO!

 

[DeeJay]

Amen Peter!

For Dee Jay:
Alcohol Crash Facts

Using the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) criteria for Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS), it is estimated that an alcohol crash occurs every 32 minutes. NHTSA defines an alcohol-related fatal crash as one that was reported by a law enforcement agency and involved a vehicle operator or a non-occupant (e.g., pedestrian) with a blood alcohol concentration (BAC) of 0.01 grams per deciliter (0.01 g/dl) or greater. In 1997, 16,189 alcohol-related fatalities occurred, 38.6% of the total fatalities for the year.
In other NHTSA statistics, alcohol-related fatalities for large truck operators declined by almost 60%, the largest such decline noted. Nearly one-third of the pedestrians 16 years or older who were killed by automobiles were intoxicated, i.e., had a BAC of 0.01 g/dl. In 1997, 29% of all fatal crashes that took place on weekdays involved alcohol. This percentage increased to 52% on weekends. For all crashes, the alcohol involvement on weekends was 12% and on weekdays, 5%. Alaska had the highest rate of fatal alcohol-related crashes using the FARS criteria and comparing total traffic fatalities to any alcohol involvement. (See Table 1.) Utah had the lowest rate. (See Table 2.)
In 1996 and 1997, approximately 1.5 million individuals were arrested for drunk or drugged driving. This is a ratio of one out of every 122 licensed vehicle operators.
For further information on alcohol involvement in traffic fatalities, contact the National Center for Statistics and Analysis, NRD-31, 400 Seventh Street, S.W., Washington, D.C. 20590; (800) 934-8517; fax (202) 366-7078 (ask for publication number DOT HS 808 764). General information on highway traffic safety can be accessed at www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/ncsa.

Table 1

States With Highest Rates of Fatal Alcohol-Related Crashes​

Alaska

52.8%
Texas
49.8%
North Dakota
47.8%
Massachusetts
47.4%
Arizona
45.5%​

Table 2​

States With Lowest Rates of Fatal Alcohol-Related Crashes​

Utah

20.6%
New York
27.4%
Arkansas
29.2%
Kansas
29.5%
Wyoming
31.5%


There are many more facts that alcohol consumption destroys lives should one wish to find them. I can see your mind is made up so I will burden you no further with the facts.


One more AMEN for Peter.!!!:thumbs:​

​

The majority of people killed on highways have nothing to do with alcohol. Most accidents are just that normal car accidents. But with you logic I would like to conclude.

Driving cars is a sin
Talking on cellphons a sin
eating while driving a sin
putting on makeup in the car a sin


BTW who is defending drinking and driving. Not me. You can drink and not drive. Your highway statistics mean nothing. I will reliy on the word of God to tell me what is sin. Why dont you post scripture. ​

 

[DeeJay]

I added emphasis to your post...

While no one can prove or disprove whether Jesus ever really consumed alcocholoic beverages, during religious ceremonial periods (ie passover) all leavening agents were removed from the home and from all food items... including wine. Therefore, during passover... Welch's only.

The Greek term oinos can refer to anything from Welch's to Cabernet, so it is a difficult propsition to make certin determinations.

Beings fresh grape juice contains leaven. Fully fermented wine contains no leaven. And pasturized Welches was not invented. Jesus had to be drinking fully fermented wine during passover.

 

[DeeJay]

I certainly understand what you are saying and I don't necessarily disagree with the spirit of it, but if we are to be truly biblical this must be an issue left to the individual to decide on their own as the Word is not clear. What is clear in the Word can be summed up in two statements:

1. We cannot condemn others over what they eat or drink.

2. The only true source of evil in this world is man, as it was man not Satan who brought evil into the world, but us.

:thumbs: :thumbs: