Wine & Alcohol part 37

[Diggin in da Word]

BTW who is defending drinking and driving. Not me. You can drink and not drive. Your highway statistics mean nothing. I will reliy on the word of God to tell me what is sin. Why dont you post scripture.

75 verses were posted about the evil of alcohol consumption and you did not receive them. If Jesus Christ knocked on your door and gave you the same verses, you would reject them from Him as well.

They hear not the preachers, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[DeeJay]

If I am understanding your post correctly, you are saying that "wine" should be used for the Lord's Supper. While I do not condemn such practice, when the Supper was instituted by Jesus, the "cup" used would have been pure unfermented juice as all leavening agents were to be removed from the home as the leaven was symbolic of sin. If your church chooses to use wine instead of juice, that is fine IMO. But to claim that the beverage at the Last Supper was fermented wine is incorrect.

I am not a legalist about this as I have often officiated the Table using leavened bread. I think we often take the symobolic images too far and make them hills we die on in ministry.

The problem is you have it backwords. Grapes have leaven on them. Fresh grape juice is full of leaven. Only when the wine reaches around %14 is the leaven (yeast) killed.

Think about this. Leaven (yeast) is in the bactiria family. Now what kills bactirias. Alcohol. When the wine reaches a certen level of alcohol it steralizes itself. That is why wine can not ferment much past %14 because it kills the agent yeast that is making the alcohol.

BTW. You can see the leaven on the skin of grapes, plums, cherrys. It is the white dust that collects on the skin. You can wipe it away with your finger.

 

[DeeJay]

75 verses were posted about the evil of alcohol consumption and you did not receive them. If Jesus Christ knocked on your door and gave you the same verses, you would reject them from Him as well.

They hear not the preachers, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

75 verses were posted on the evil of drunkeness. Nothing was posted about consumption of alcohol in moderation.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, neither can he know them; for they are foolishness unto him and are Spiritually discerned.

Man cannot twist scripture to justify his lust to consume alcohol in any amount and expect to stand before a Holy God acceptable unto Him.

 

[DeeJay]

The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, neither can he know them; for they are foolishness unto him and are Spiritually discerned.

Man cannot twist scripture to justify his lust to consume alcohol in any amount and expect to stand before a Holy God acceptable unto Him.

So you are saying that I am lost?

 

[av1611jim]

Jas 4:1
¶ From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

Jas 4:3
Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.


Mt 16:24
¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

I'll say it again. The booze defenders will not obey Scripture. Without controversy it is apparent that they are defending a choice to consume a drug which has killed and maimed millions yet they will not deny the fleshly desire for the pleasure which consumption of it brings in spite of the evidence from wisdom, experience, and Scripture. And they still stiffen their necks in spite of appeals to keep the testimony of the Christian church above reproach.

"Make righteous judgment".

Have your booze. Drink up! Enjoy! Eat, drink and be merry! (Where have we heard THAT wisdom before???)

 

[DeeJay]

The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, neither can he know them; for they are foolishness unto him and are Spiritually discerned.

Man cannot twist scripture to justify his lust to consume alcohol in any amount and expect to stand before a Holy God acceptable unto Him.

Let me clear it up.

"You ask how I can expect to stand before Holy God acceptable to Him?"

My answer is I will never be acceptable to him (neither will you) I will stand before him and be judged based on the righoutness of Jesus Christ. No matter if I am right about alcohol or I am wrong and you are right. I will still kneel before God and be judged rightous based on the Blood of Jesus. Nothing I do or do not do will affect my salvation that was given to my thru faith in Christ.

Now you need to do a little more diggen in the Word. Clear up the false doctrine of works and being righoutous on your own. Then you can debate the details of scripture like this.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I already am acceptable to God. I am daily presenting my body a living sacrifice.

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Not sacrificing myself to alcohol, but to God.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

And there you go...

HBSMN posted the very verse that shows it is not unreasonable to be holy and acceptable in this life.

When God said, 'Be ye holy' in Leviticus, He was not saying empty words. Be ye holy was a command, not a suggestion. One cannot be holy partaking of that alcohol.

 

[av1611jim]

Allow me to clear up this false notion that when we stand before Him that we are immune to judgment based on His righteousness.
2Co 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

[Darrell]

75 WARNINGS​

There is more Scripture condemning the use of alcoholic beverages than will be found on the subjects of lying, adultery, swearing, cheating, hypocrisy, pride, or even blasphemy.​

1) Genesis 9:20-26 - Noah became drunk; the result was immorality and family trouble.​

2) Genesis 19:30-38 - Lot was so drunk he did not know what he was doing; this led to immorality​

3) Leviticus 10:9-11 - God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy.​

4) Numbers 6:3 - The Nazarites were told to eat or drink nothing from the grape vine.​

5) Deuteronomy 21:20 - A drunken son was stubborn and rebellious.​

6) Deuteronomy 29:5-6 - God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.​

7) Deuteronomy 32:33 - Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.​

8) Judges 13:4, 7, 14 - Samson was to be a Nazarite for life. His mother was told not to drink wine or strong drink.​

9) 1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.​

10) 1 Samuel 25:32-38 - Nabal died after a drunken spree.​

11) 2 Samuel 11:13 - By getting Uriah drunk, David hoped to cover his sin.​

12) 2 Samuel 13:28-29 - Amnon was drunk when he was killed.​

13) 1 Kings 16:8-10 - The king was drinking himself into drunkenness when he was assassinated​

14) 1 Kings 20:12-21 - Ben-Hadad and 32 other kings were drinking when they were attacked and defeated by the Israelites.​

15) Esther 1:5-12 - The king gave each one all the drink he wanted. The king was intoxicated when he commanded the queen to come.​

16) Psalm 75:8 - The Lord’s anger is pictured as mixed wine poured out and drunk by the wicked.​

17) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.​

18) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.​

19) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.​

20) Proverbs 23:21 - Drunkenness causes poverty.​

21) Proverbs 23:29-30 - Drinking causes woe, sorrow, fighting, babbling, wounds without cause and red eyes.​

22) Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.​

23) Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.​

24) Proverbs 23:33 - Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation.​

25) Proverbs 23:34 - Alcohol makes the drinker unstable​

26) Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning. Alcohol is habit forming.​

27) Proverb 31:4-5 - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.​

28) Proverbs 31:6-7 - Strong drink could be given to those about to perish or those in pain. Better anesthetics are available today.​

29) Ecclesiastes 2:3 - The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not. (Ecclesiastes 12:8)​

30) Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.​

31) Isaiah 5:11-12 - Woe to those who get up early to drink and stay up late at night to get drunk.​

32) Isaiah 5:22 - Woe to "champion" drinkers and "experts" at mixing drinks.​

33) Isaiah 19:14 - Drunken men stagger in their vomit.​

34) Isaiah 22:12-13 - The Israelites choose to drink; their future looks hopeless to them.​

35) Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.​

36) Isaiah 28:1 - God pronounces woe on the drunkards of Ephraim.​

37) Isaiah 28:3 - Proud drunkards shall be trodden down.​

38) Isaiah 28:7 - Priests and prophets stagger and reel from beer and wine, err in vision, and stumble in judgment.​

39) Isaiah 28:8 - Drinkers’ tables are covered with vomit and filth.​

40) Isaiah 56:9-12 - Drinkers seek their own gain and expect tomorrow to be just like today.​

41) Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.​

42) Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.​

43) Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.​

44) Daniel 5:1 - Belshazzar, ruler of Babylon; led his people in drinking.​

45) Daniel 5:2-3 - The king, along with his nobles, wives, and concubines, drank from the goblets which had been taken from God’s temple.​

46) Daniel 5:4 - Drinking wine was combined with praising false gods.​

47) Daniel 5:23 - God sent word to Belshazzar that punishment would be swift for the evil he had committed.​

48) Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.​

49) Hosea 7:5 - God reproves princes for drinking.​

50) Joel 1:5 - Drunkards awake to see God’s judgment.​

51) Joel 3:3 - The enemy is judged for selling girls for wine.​

52) Amos 2:8 - Unrighteous acts of Israel included the drinking of wine which had been taken for the payment of fines.​

53) Amos 2:12 - Israel is condemned for forcing Nazarites to drink wine.​

54) Micah 2:11 - Israelites are eager to follow false teachers who prophesy plenty of intoxicating drinks.​

55) Nahum 1:10 - The drunkards of Nineveh will be destroyed by God.​

56) Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.​

57) Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.​

58) Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame.​

59) Matthew 24:48-51 - A drinking servant is unprepared for his Lord’s return.​

60) Luke 1:15 - John the Baptist drank neither grape juice nor wine.​

61) Luke 12:45 - Christ warned against drunkenness.​

62) Luke 21:34 - Drunkenness will cause a person not to be ready for the Lord’s return.​

63) Romans 13:13 - Do not walk in drunkenness or immorality.​

64) Romans 14:21 - Do not do anything that will hurt your testimony as a believer.​

65) 1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him.​

66) 1 Corinthians 6:10 - Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God​

67) Galatians 5:21 - Acts of the sinful nature, such as drunkenness, will prohibit a person from inheriting the kingdom of God.​

68) Ephesians 5:18 - In contrast to being drunk with wine, the believer is to be filled with the Spirit.​

69) 1 Thessalonians 5:6-7 - Christians are to be alert and self-controlled, belonging to the day. Drunkards belong to the night and darkness.​

70) 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.​

71) 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.​

72) 1 Timothy 3:11 - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.​

73) Titus 1:7-8 - An overseer is to be disciplined.​

74) Titus 2:2-3 - The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.​

75) 1 Peter 4:3-4 - The past life of drunkenness and carousing has no place in the Christian’s life.​

Signal Press Catalog # 3058​

We know that drunkenness is sin. So why the verses on drunkenness? Please post one verse that says that it is a sin for a Christian to drink wine in moderation.

 

[Alcott]

Revelation tells us that among those who will find their part in the lake of fire will be 'all liars.'

Personal attack removed

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Proverbs 4:14-17 14 Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men. 15 Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away. 16 For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall. 17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.

This passage does not speak of drunkenness. It says that evil men drink the wine of violence... i.e. fermented wine.

Those who say they drink alcohol must be admitting to entering the path of the wicked.

 

[Linda64]

I haven't seen ONE verse posted, by those defending drinking in moderation, that specifically states that it is OK to drink alcohol in moderation. The context of Romans 14 is Christian liberty--not drinking in moderation--yet that is the only scripture I find posted here in defense of drinking in moderation.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

It saddens me to see so many are deceived by alcohol. Many are so deceived into thinking that there is nothing wrong with partaking of that which the Word of God calls the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps', that they attack the messenger who proclaims the Word of God.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

We know that drunkenness is sin. So why the verses on drunkenness? Please post one verse that says that it is a sin for a Christian to drink wine in moderation.

Proverbs 23: 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

Does not say to drink as long as you do not get drunk. It says 'Look not.' That word 'Look' means do not have experience with. How can you drink in moderation and not have experience with it at the same time? It is impossible! This verse clearly shows the child of God is to practice abstinence.

Why would a loving God tell His children it is ok to drink poison? Would you tell your children to drink poison?

BTW, those two verses are from points 22 and 23.

 

[whatever]

I haven't seen ONE verse posted, by those defending drinking in moderation, that specifically states that it is OK to drink alcohol in moderation. The context of Romans 14 is Christian liberty--not drinking in moderation--yet that is the only scripture I find posted here in defense of drinking in moderation.

What about Deuteronomy 14:24-27, especially verse 26?

 

[Darrell]

Proverbs 23: 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

You conveniently left out verses 33-35. The passage is clearly referring to drunkenness.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

What about Deuteronomy 14:24-27, especially verse 26?

As Deuteronomy was addressed (and apparently ignored) in post 39, I have copied it from there to be again shown that the wine in Deuteronomy 14 could in no way be alcoholic wine.

Deuteronomy 14:26 26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,


Those proponents of moderation with respect to intoxicating beverages might suggest that this text sanctions and encourages the drinking of beer and alcoholic wine. To be fair, it appears to be so, but this is not the case. In examining this passage we will learn that the book of Deuteronomy furnishes us with a perfect example of the following:

A) a correct understanding of the generic words which are used for "wine" and "strong drink" respectfully.
B) a proper application of the law of context
C) a complete understanding of God's view on the subject of drinking.

Now in returning to the text, we will see that the Bible itself conclusively refutes any suggestions whatsoever that this text endorses the use of alcoholic drinks.

We have already learned in our studies that the words translated "wine" [yayin] and "strong drink" [shekar] here are generic, and may refer to fresh grape juice and a sweet pleasant drink which was unfermented. What kind of beverage is this verse referring to? Since it may be argued that this text can be interpreted according to one's own particular bias, the answer is very simple. Deuteronomy 29:6 explains:

Deuteronomy 29:6 6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.



Here this passage proves that the "wine" and "strong drink" in chapter 14: 26 cannot be the same as that mentioned here! The inspired text later goes on to explain in no uncertain terms exactly what kind of wine the Jews did drink. It reads:

Deuteronomy 32:14 14 Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.



Here Moses names among the many blessings of the Lord, pure fresh grape juice known as "the blood of the grape" which was highly esteemed.

excerpt from "Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence" by Leighton G. Campbell pp. 91, 92

 

[Jack Matthews]

None of those scriptures forbid drinking alcohol. They warn against getting drunk, not drinking wine.

Wake me up when this argument is settled and everyone has reached agreement on how to interpret those scriptures.
:sleeping_2: