Wine & Alcohol part 37

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Darrell,

You will reject it, but here goes...

Proverbs 23:31 Look thou not upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

This verse clearly is speaking of an alcoholic wine. The word 'look' in the Hebrew is the word 'ra'ah'. That word means 'do not have experience with.' How can one not have experience with alcohol while at the same time drink it?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Ummmm....no. The foolishness is phrases like "whenever wine is mentioned with blessings it's non alcoholic and whenever it is mentioned with curses it's alcoholic". That's pure foolishness and clearly eisegeting Scripture to fit manmade doctrine and convictions which is also foolishness.

The foolishness is to think that all wine in the Bible is alcoholic and that God approves of drinking alcoholic wine. The foolishness is to claim that Jesus Christ made and drank alcoholic wine. The foolishness is to deny God's Word in order to justify drinking alcoholic wine.

 

[LarryN]

I think you need to look up the definition of the word "Animism":



<SNIP lengthy, irrelevant (at least to HBSMN) definition>



This isn't rocket science, folks. To have inherently evil intent, as he claims wine does, wine would indeed require a soul. Humans have a soul, humans have a sin nature. Animals do not have a soul, animals do not have a sin nature. The definition of animism of course would fit: for if (as HBSMN claims) inanimate things can sin (i.e. have an evil nature, as he claims); it follows that they must also possess a soul.

As I've already said, if I were a Druid, rather than a Baptist, perhaps I would believe as HBSMN believes...


Look, there are potentially many, Biblically valid reasons for Christians to not partake of alcohol. However, appeals to a belief in a pagan heresy should not be among them.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

LarryN,

I never once claimed that wine had a soul. You are twisting my words. Go back an read my posts again.

I said that wine is not inanimate. It has movement in it under a microscope. I said just as the Bible states, that it bites.

Wine has living organisms in it that give it the nature to do just what the Bible says... it bites and stings.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Animals do not have a soul, animals do not have a sin nature.

You need to study more, as has been said before. Animals do have souls.

 

[webdog]

Amazing! God's Word shows us we are to abstain from alcoholic beverage and you are telling us to ignore His Word?

Isaiah 30:9-10 9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: 10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

No, I'm telling everyone to just ignore you

 

[webdog]

The foolishness is to think that all wine in the Bible is alcoholic and that God approves of drinking alcoholic wine. The foolishness is to claim that Jesus Christ made and drank alcoholic wine. The foolishness is to deny God's Word in order to justify drinking alcoholic wine.

foolishness is believing wine is anything but. We have wine today. We know what wine consists of...alcohol. Case closed.

 

[ituttut]

Along with Martin Luther, I very much enjoy dealing the devil blows over a few beers or glasses of wine.

Obviously, I am of the moderationist school of thought on this matter.

If you don't feel the freedom to be where I am at, then you do best to stay where you are at. Seriously.

Christian understanding

 

[LarryN]

HBSMN wrote: "Wine has living organisms in it..."


Would you care to provide a link to any evidence to back this claim up?

If you are referring to yeast (the bacterial leaven present in unfermented, unpasteurized grape juice), yeast is what triggers fermentation- which eventually kills the yeast present- at which point fermentation ceases. This is why natural (non-fortified) wine has a maximum alcohol content of about 14%- the alcohol present has reached such a level that the yeast has been rendered inert. At that point it is a sterile (not containing anything living) liquid. This is why it can be used as an effective disinfectant to cleanse wounds (see Luke 10:34).

 

[LarryN]

"Animals do have souls."


Chapter & verse, please?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

HBSMN wrote: "Wine has living organisms in it..."


Would you care to provide a link to any evidence to back this claim up?

If you are referring to yeast (the bacterial leaven present in unfermented, unpasteurized grape juice), yeast is what triggers fermentation- which eventually kills the yeast present- at which point fermentation ceases. This is why natural (non-fortified) wine has a maximum alcohol content of about 14%- the alcohol present has reached such a level that the yeast has been rendered inert. At that point it is a sterile (not containing anything living) liquid. This is why it can be used as an effective disinfectant to cleanse wounds (see Luke 10:34).

http://www.etslabs.com/pagetemplate/blank.asp?pageid=411

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

"Animals do have souls."


Chapter & verse, please?

Study to show thyself approved...

 

[LarryN]

So HBSMN, just so I'm clear on what you are claiming, your belief is that any bacterial strains (other than yeast) which may actually survive in an alcohol base, are what provide wine with any inherent evil nature you claim it may possess? Are you saying that bacteria can have a sin nature?

You say I've put words in your mouth: feel free to state, as elaborately as possible, how you believe I have misrepresented your statements.

 

[LarryN]

Study to show thyself approved...

I guess a non-answer will have to suffice on you part, eh?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I guess a non-answer will have to suffice on you part, eh?

I studied it out and found verses in the Bible to prove animals have souls. If you study, you will find the same.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Job 12:10 10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Psalm 74:19 19 O deliver not the soul of thy turtledove unto the multitude of the wicked: forget not the congregation of thy poor for ever.

 

[Linda64]

So HBSMN, just so I'm clear on what you are claiming, your belief is that any bacterial strains (other than yeast) which may actually survive in an alcohol base, are what provide wine with any inherent evil nature you claim it may possess? Are you saying that bacteria can have a sin nature?

You say I've put words in your mouth: feel free to state, as elaborately as possible, how you believe I have misrepresented your statements.

Nobody is saying that bacteria, wine, sugar, salt, or any other ORGANIC substance has a sin nature--that is YOUR conjecture and assumption. All HBSMN said is what God has stated in His Word--

Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. (Proverbs 23:31-32)

The "IT" this verse is speaking about is "fermented" wine--end of discussion.

 

[ituttut]

You know, when the two men on the road to Emmaeus reminisced of their conversation with Jesus, one asked the question,
'Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?'

God's Word has been shared. If the truth of those scriptures has not caused your hearts to burn within you concerning this matter, then you choose to walk in darkness.

As for me, I will continue to walk in His Light. Alchohol in the life of a Christian is forbidden. So says God's Word.

Do you have scripure for that?

Please note the scriptures that were opened to them where only the scriptures of the OT. In those scriptures resides God's gift to make glad the heart of man. Surely Psalms 104:15 was opened to them - "And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart." Isn't this after all what Jesus is telling us as we remember Him? The bread and the cup He wishes us to take is shown in this Psalm as well as when King Melchizedek, the High Priest of God gave the gift of bread and wine to Abram. Did this man of God refuse the King's blessings and His gifts?

We either believe what is opened to us, or believe another. The Bible will interpret itself if we will only let it.

In Christ the OT is opened to us, and after Damascus Road He opens the NT understanding to us. We are to lighten up and take a little wine for our stomachs sake. The stress on us all becomes more severe every day. We have a "heavenly prescription that works", if we don't overdose.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The heavenly prescription is look to Jesus, not the alcohol.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

So, you are saying that wine that makes the heart glad and wine that is fermented and commanded in God's Word to be avoided, are the same wine?

Again. How can one avoid, have no experience with alcoholic wine and yet partake of it? You still have not answered this question.