Wine & Alcohol part 37

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The passage refers to drunkenness, but the verse itself refers to wine, not drunkenness. As I explained, and I see Linda64 also explained, Solomon showed what wine can do, then warned the reader of even experiencing wine. He did not say 'don't drink to the point of drunkenness' in that verse. No, he said 'Look not thou'.

Using that phrase 'look not thou,' and its Hebrew translation, it is clear Solomon was saying 'Do not experience'.

Again, you have not answered the question.

How can a person partake of alcoholic wine and not experience it?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Peter,

I see you too ignore the fact that Solomon said 'Do not experience' the fermented wine.

 

[PeterM]

Peter,

I see you too ignore the fact that Solomon said 'Do not experience' the fermented wine.

Not ignoring my friend, just doing some translation work on that passage...

The two hebrew words are literally thra al which mean "must not be staring at." I agree with the strength of the phrase as it implies something more that just a casual glance, but to translate that phrase as you have done, to me, seems to be inaccurate. Again, I am doing my own translation work here, and I am no Eugene Peterson. :smilewinkgrin:

I think I'll stick with the literal meaning of the text.

 

[Darrell]

I'm still waiting for biblical proof of your claim...that Jesus made and drank fermented wine.

Linda, I did not make such a claim. I don't know for sure if JESUS made and drank fermented wine. From the context of the passage and taking the entire Bible into account, I believe that JESUS may have made fermented wine. If He did, I don't believe any drunkenness took place and the wine would have been a weak wine.

JESUS made many things that can be abused. Sleep, food, sex and so forth. One of my weaknesses in the flesh is eating. Should I stop eating all together?

I don't claim to have all the answers, Linda. I can tell you that I love JESUS (I need to love Him more). I look forward to His coming soon. He has all the answers.

Thanks for writing, Linda. I must get back to work and I have to go eat here shortly!

In the love of CHRIST!

 

[ituttut]

The heavenly prescription is look to Jesus, not the alcohol.

And so you do not wish to remember Him with that which has been sterilized to remove the imperfections?

Why do you refuse to believe scripture, that it is He that brought bread and wine to Abram; was just the opposite of John the Baptist in eating and drinking. He informed Paul it is good also for medicinal purposes.

We are not in the "kingdom that was at hand" in the days, that year of Pentecost, where by the Power of the Holy Ghost, sickness and death could be avoided. Without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, all we have available to us is the "grape juice for the babes", and the wine for the grown-ups. God says "wine was given to man to make the heart glad". Is drinking an ounce or 8 ounces of "grape juice" going to make your "heart glad"?

Jesus gave His blood to make our "hearts glad". I've previously furnished you scripture where the grape fermented (wine) represents His blood, as His blood is pure. Grape juice is not. We are to "drink the pure blood", not that blood sacrificed before offered of animals, blood not made pure and full of imperfection's.

Won't you believe Him today? If not then disprove His Word to justify your stand.

 

[PeterM]

I have materials from the Mishnah that state that the typical passover wine used was cut with water to a 3 to 1 mixture... wonder whay they did that?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The Hebrew word for 'Look' in that passage is not thra'al, but ra'ah.


7200. ra'ah
Search for H7200 in KJVSL
har ra'ah raw-aw'

a primitive root; to see, literally or figuratively (in numerous applications, direct and implied, transitive, intransitive and causative):--advise self, appear, approve, behold, X certainly, consider, discern, (make to) enjoy, have experience, gaze, take heed, X indeed, X joyfully, lo, look (on, one another, one on another, one upon another, out, up, upon), mark, meet, X be near, perceive, present, provide, regard, (have) respect, (fore-, cause to, let) see(-r, -m, one another), shew (self), X sight of others, (e-)spy, stare, X surely, X think, view, visions.

All of these words that are bolded in the above apply to the word 'Look' in Proverbs 23:31.

It is evident that Solomon was warning that the best way to keep from getting drunk is to not even touch alcoholic drink in the first place. In other words, abstain.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

to translate that phrase as you have done, to me, seems to be inaccurate.

There's a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

And so you do not wish to remember Him with that which has been sterilized to remove the imperfections?

Why do you refuse to believe scripture, that it is He that brought bread and wine to Abram; was just the opposite of John the Baptist in eating and drinking. He informed Paul it is good also for medicinal purposes.

We are not in the "kingdom that was at hand" in the days, that year of Pentecost, where by the Power of the Holy Ghost, sickness and death could be avoided. Without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, all we have available to us is the "grape juice for the babes", and the wine for the grown-ups. God says "wine was given to man to make the heart glad". Is drinking an ounce or 8 ounces of "grape juice" going to make your "heart glad"?

Jesus gave His blood to make our "hearts glad". I've previously furnished you scripture where the grape fermented (wine) represents His blood, as His blood is pure. Grape juice is not. We are to "drink the pure blood", not that blood sacrificed before offered of animals, blood not made pure and full of imperfection's.

Won't you believe Him today? If not then disprove His Word to justify your stand.

Fermented wine, a product of decay, is not sterilized. Maybe in man's eyes it is, but God's Holy Word shows over and over that is is evil.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

And so you do not wish to remember Him with that which has been sterilized to remove the imperfections?

Why do you refuse to believe scripture, that it is He that brought bread and wine to Abram; was just the opposite of John the Baptist in eating and drinking. He informed Paul it is good also for medicinal purposes.

We are not in the "kingdom that was at hand" in the days, that year of Pentecost, where by the Power of the Holy Ghost, sickness and death could be avoided. Without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, all we have available to us is the "grape juice for the babes", and the wine for the grown-ups. God says "wine was given to man to make the heart glad". Is drinking an ounce or 8 ounces of "grape juice" going to make your "heart glad"?

Jesus gave His blood to make our "hearts glad". I've previously furnished you scripture where the grape fermented (wine) represents His blood, as His blood is pure. Grape juice is not. We are to "drink the pure blood", not that blood sacrificed before offered of animals, blood not made pure and full of imperfection's.

Won't you believe Him today? If not then disprove His Word to justify your stand.

It is not I who does not believe Jesus' Word. It is not I who spreads lies about Him offering alcoholic beverages to believers.

Won't you believe Him today?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I have materials from the Mishnah that state that the typical passover wine used was cut with water to a 3 to 1 mixture... wonder whay they did that?

Mishnah is not God's Word though. It is the Pharisee's interpretation.

I will choose to believe God. Total abstinence in the life of the Believer.

 

[Linda64]

I'm still waiting for biblical proof of your claim...that Jesus made and drank fermented wine.

Linda, I did not make such a claim. I don't know for sure if JESUS made and drank fermented wine. From the context of the passage and taking the entire Bible into account, I believe that JESUS may have made fermented wine. If He did, I don't believe any drunkenness took place and the wine would have been a weak wine.

JESUS made many things that can be abused. Sleep, food, sex and so forth. One of my weaknesses in the flesh is eating. Should I stop eating all together?

I don't claim to have all the answers, Linda. I can tell you that I love JESUS (I need to love Him more). I look forward to His coming soon. He has all the answers.

Thanks for writing, Linda. I must get back to work and I have to go eat here shortly!

In the love of CHRIST!

Just by saying "I believe Jesus MAY have made fermented wine", you made the claim. If Jesus made fermented wine He would be going against the Scriptures (which He didn't do):

Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! (Habakkuk 2:15)

 

[DHK]

And so you do not wish to remember Him with that which has been sterilized to remove the imperfections?

I remember Jesus as the One who made the perfect grape juice ("wine" or oinos), flawless, without any imperfection, created from the Master's hand, better than anything that man could ever had made. Oh, how I wish that I could have tasted such juice, "new wine," as if it were straight from the best grapes that could have possibly been grown. Nothing could have been done better than Jesus could do. It was to absolute perfection--better than any fermented wine. It indeed was the best; for it was perfect! All that Jesus, the Creator, did was perfect. Could we expect anything less?

Why do you refuse to believe scripture, that it is He that brought bread and wine to Abram; was just the opposite of John the Baptist in eating and drinking. He informed Paul it is good also for medicinal purposes.

Did Abraham bring wine or juice (yayin) to Melchizedek. Let the context speak. Fermentation is a symbol of corruption. John the Baptist "drinking" which has already been shown to be a false accusation. Did Paul give fermented wine as a medicinal remedy--a foolish speculation to say the least.
To say what the Bible says:
"I once was young and now am old...and have spent much money on many physicians..." (my paraphrase). Yet in all my years (we have a free medicare system), I have never heard the advice of one doctor to take any alcoholic beverage for any kind of sickness. It just ain't so. It is a myth. I have heard of many herbal remedies, many remedies that come handed down from grandmothers, and so on. Aspirin itself comes from the bark of a tree. But never have I heard any "credible" evidence that alcohol was good for anything except getting drunk! Why defame the Scriptures with such garbage that you spout off?

Let's examine the verse. Paul said to Timothy:
Take a little wine (grape juice) for thy stomach's sake and they oft infirmities. This was a long term sickness or ailment that Timothy had. It was in the stomach. One of the most common infirmites of that time caused by contaminated water is dyssentery. Bacterial dyssentery usually can be taken care of by some household remedy--yogurt, etc. and a careful diet. Timothy probably had amoebic dyssentery, dyssentery which would bother him, perhaps for the rest of his life. It keeps coming back. One of the best things for dyssentery happens to be grape juice. Fermentation doesn't kill anything. There already is HCL that naturally resides in the stomach. It is not the so-called disinfectant (a myth) that the person needs. It is the opposite. He needs yogurt (a baterial based culture), grape juice, and soft foods. Alcohol would only aggravate his problem. Any doctor would tell you to stay away from alcohol and cigarettes--the two most common causes or aggravations of many ailments. And yet many have the audacity to believe that that which destroys is actually a cure! Amazing!

I have lived in an Islamic nation. There is no fermented beverages to be found. All alcohol is banned. Then what advice are you going to give? How does this verse become relevant to such a society then? They obviously know that drunkeness is evil. They ban the cause of it. Can the cause of that which is evil be the cause of that which is good. Can a good tree bear evil fruit or an evil tree bear good? What did Jesus say about that?
DHK

 

[PeterM]

אַל־תֵּ֥רֶא יַיִן֮ כִּ֪י יִתְאַ֫דָּ֥ם כִּֽי־יִתֵּ֣ן בַּכֹּ֣֯יס עֵינֹ֑ו יִ֝תְהַלֵּ֗ךְ בְּמֵישָׁרִֽים׃

Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia : With Westminster Hebrew Morphology. electronic ed., Pr 23:31. Stuttgart; Glenside PA: German Bible Society; Westminster Seminary, 1996, c1925; morphology c1991.

My hebrew text says... al thra'ah which is a verb, qal, imperfect, second person, masculine, singular, apocopated ending, jussive in form and meaning with the strong prefix attached.

The root of the term used is indeed ra'ah but the form used is stronger, implying staring or glaring. The word is used only on 3 occasions in the OT text. Just to let you know I am using Libronix Software for this material.

I am not saying your material is wrong, as it isn't. What I am saying and what others have said is that you are selecting the particular meaning, which may be correct, but from the list you posted, there can be multiple meanings applied.

 

[PeterM]

I remember Jesus as the One who made the perfect grape juice ("wine" or oinos), flawless, without any imperfection, created from the Master's hand, better than anything that man could ever had made. Oh, how I wish that I could have tasted such juice, "new wine," as if it were straight from the best grapes that could have possibly been grown. Nothing could have been done better than Jesus could do. It was to absolute perfection--better than any fermented wine. It indeed was the best; for it was perfect! All that Jesus, the Creator, did was perfect. Could we expect anything less?


You understanding of "new wine" being simply juice, or only lightly fermented conflicts with this passage from Acts 2:

12 And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13 But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.” 14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.

If "new wine" is simply juice, how does that harmonize with the accusation of the apostles being drunk... as a result of consuming "new wine?" Answer: As soon as the grapes are pressed the fermentation process begins and since passover is in the spring, months after harvest, it needed to be cut with water during religious celebrations to meet the religious criteria. By the way the term here is not oinos.

13 ετεροι δε διαχλευαζοντες ελεγον οτι γλευκους μεμεστωμενοι εισιν

The word literally translates "sweet wine" and this is the word's only appearance in the NT.

The term used in John 2 is simply good wine verses inferior wine. Again, no clear definite rulings can be made here in these passages as to what the "wine" was. What we can infer is that the guest of wedding knew good wine from bad wine... maybe an expert in the field.

 

[ituttut]

So, you are saying that wine that makes the heart glad and wine that is fermented and commanded in God's Word to be avoided, are the same wine?

Again. How can one avoid, have no experience with alcoholic wine and yet partake of it? You still have not answered this question.

I have disproved everything you have put forth by believing what scripture tells us. You have not even tried to answer one of my posts, disproving scripture presented, but with platitudes.

You have not before asked me this question that I can remember? The answer is you partake of that which is not "to make the heart of man glad", but only that which is not "pure". There are "hearts" not pure, and there are "hearts" made pure by the blood that has been made "pure", and all those of pure hearts have been taught not to partake of this gift from God. The "pure of heart" are able to partake of the "pure blood". Don't let anyone convince you, you are not "pure of heart". We are not "superman".

I really appreciate you giving me credit for making it possible for man to have "wine to make the heart glad", but I am here to tell you it is God that said that, not me. I just deliver His Word as He interprets it for us. With this in mind, we now have a premise to move forward to connect what has been furnished you earlier. What was part of Isaacs's blessings on Jacob? "Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine", Genesis 27:28. Is this true or false? God gave to His people "wine" and they did drink it with the blessings of God.

What do you make of Genesis 4:11:12, "Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
12. His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk." My friend He has "blood in His eyes". Wine and the Blood. There is a connection if we will only believe His Word.

We are to be filled with the Spirit, and not wine, but a little is prescribed to help with our infirmities, and often but within limits when needed. And every sinner has infirmities. Please accept His Word.

 

[Alcott]

Can the cause of that which is evil be the cause of that which is good.

Joseph told his brothers so much.

 

[DHK]

Joseph told his brothers so much.

That is pure rationalization. Joseph was speaking of human nature, sin, and the providence of God.
Jesus spoke of a tree bearing fruit which has more relevance here. Good trees do not bear bad fruit and vice-versa. Read Matthew chapter 7.
"yeast" is a symbol of corruption all throught the Bible.
When applied to grape juice it produces an intoxicating drink, which in the case of Lot, vexed with stain of the worldly influence of Sodom, became so drunk that he didn't even realize that he had sex with his own daughters. Out of that union came two sons, producing two nations that became a thorn in the side of Israel, from then on in. In derision the Moabites are referred to in the book of Psalms: "Moab is my washpot." It was a sinful corrupt nation, referred to as a washpot--good enough to hold the dirty water that washed the travelers' feet. When one sows to the flesh they reap corruption. Sin has its consequences.
"Wine is a mocker; strong drink is raging..."
DHK

 

[ituttut]

I'm still waiting for biblical proof of your claim...that Jesus made and drank fermented wine.

Linda, I did not make such a claim. I don't know for sure if JESUS made and drank fermented wine. From the context of the passage and taking the entire Bible into account, I believe that JESUS may have made fermented wine. If He did, I don't believe any drunkenness took place and the wine would have been a weak wine.

JESUS made many things that can be abused. Sleep, food, sex and so forth. One of my weaknesses in the flesh is eating. Should I stop eating all together?

Like that Darrell. But I don't believe He made the wine weak, for that (which you refer to) would mean He has made sex weak?? Don't you believe it. In the married couple it is powerful, and "makes glad the heart", just as wine, and it is measured. Not so with the orgies, or one nightstands of pent-up desires, just as with wine. Just a little for the stomachs sake, and please remember Me, He says, with a cup that represents my "pure" blood.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I have disproved everything you have put forth by believing what scripture tells us. You have not even tried to answer one of my posts, disproving scripture presented, but with platitudes.

You have not before asked me this question that I can remember? The answer is you partake of that which is not "to make the heart of man glad", but only that which is not "pure". There are "hearts" not pure, and there are "hearts" made pure by the blood that has been made "pure", and all those of pure hearts have been taught not to partake of this gift from God. The "pure of heart" are able to partake of the "pure blood". Don't let anyone convince you, you are not "pure of heart". We are not "superman".

I really appreciate you giving me credit for making it possible for man to have "wine to make the heart glad", but I am here to tell you it is God that said that, not me. I just deliver His Word as He interprets it for us. With this in mind, we now have a premise to move forward to connect what has been furnished you earlier. What was part of Isaacs's blessings on Jacob? "Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine", Genesis 27:28. Is this true or false? God gave to His people "wine" and they did drink it with the blessings of God.

What do you make of Genesis 4:11:12, "Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
12. His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk." My friend He has "blood in His eyes". Wine and the Blood. There is a connection if we will only believe His Word.

We are to be filled with the Spirit, and not wine, but a little is prescribed to help with our infirmities, and often but within limits when needed. And every sinner has infirmities. Please accept His Word.

Non alcoholic wine was prescribed to Timothy as DHK showed earlier. And the wine that makes the heart glad is also non alcoholic, as I pointed out so many times before from God's Word.

Please accept God's Word.