Wine As A Beverage

[Jerome]

"the poorest, weakest, and most easily offended person in the whole church must rule you if you are a true father! You will study the most wayward, and yield your personal pleasure for the good of the most faulty. Somebody asked, "Why should we deny ourselves alcoholic drink because weak-minded persons are overcome by it? That would be to make the weakest persons the virtual rulers of our conduct, which would be absurd." Just so; but the absurdity appertains to the family of love. Our domestic affairs must seem absurd to unsympathetic strangers. Who likes to tell them to the uninitiated? It would be casting pearls before swine. I would say, —All hail to the absurdities of holy love: long may they reign!" —Charles Spurgeon, An All-Round Ministry

 

[John18]

Actually drinking wine is good for you. It's a medical fact. Saying otherwise is simply incorrect.

I'm still confused here. If what you say is true, then why doesn't the Scriptures say that Jesus turn the water into the fruit of the vine. Sorry. It doesn't. It says wine. Ever been to a Jewish wedding? Hint: they don't drink grape juice.

A medical 'fact' doesnt mean a lot many times.Science will and does say MANY things that are not true and can even be dangerous.This is a fact.It has been told that a person MUST take this or that medicine to make them well when it actually may kill them and many times,has.

Look how many drugs that have been taken off of the market over the years that we were told we needed to make us well that were actually killing people.We have heard that coffee,eggs and how many other foods were bad for us and now they say that coffee and eggs are OK.

You can get benefit from juice without the alcohol,the 'fact' you quote may very well be from a study done by the companies that sell and or make alcoholic drinks.

The word wine is used to mean both versions.Alcohol and fruit of the vine.When it says not to LOOK at wine,that is what it means,DONT even look at it.It seems that MANY here want to take a literal look at the Bible except for when it comes to alcohol and then it is a different story.

As far as the stomach,NO you dont give alcohol to someone that has stomch trouble.It isnt going to make things better,especially if it is an ulcer.Grape juice,yes.I have used juice and it helps quite a bit.

And,not to say anything about Jews but they do things and condone things they should not.You cant justify your point on any of the things you have said.

The Bible,not me and not anyone else says:

Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

23:31
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Excellent advice John18. May your tribe increase!!:thumbs:

 

[annsni]

A medical 'fact' doesnt mean a lot many times.Science will and does say MANY things that are not true and can even be dangerous.This is a fact.It has been told that a person MUST take this or that medicine to make them well when it actually may kill them and many times,has.

Look how many drugs that have been taken off of the market over the years that we were told we needed to make us well that were actually killing people.We have heard that coffee,eggs and how many other foods were bad for us and now they say that coffee and eggs are OK.

You can get benefit from juice without the alcohol,the 'fact' you quote may very well be from a study done by the companies that sell and or make alcoholic drinks.

The word wine is used to mean both versions.Alcohol and fruit of the vine.When it says not to LOOK at wine,that is what it means,DONT even look at it.It seems that MANY here want to take a literal look at the Bible except for when it comes to alcohol and then it is a different story.

As far as the stomach,NO you dont give alcohol to someone that has stomch trouble.It isnt going to make things better,especially if it is an ulcer.Grape juice,yes.I have used juice and it helps quite a bit.

And,not to say anything about Jews but they do things and condone things they should not.You cant justify your point on any of the things you have said.

The Bible,not me and not anyone else says:

Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

23:31
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Why do you choose to ignore the Scriptures? God Himself told the Israelites to drink not just wine but strong drink. Strong drink cannot be anything but alcohol. So where do we stand??

Oh - and your medical advice isn't worth 2 cents. You don't understand alcohol and it's affect on bacteria apparently.

 

[steaver]

Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

There is no command here to drink alcohol. The instruction of the LORD is to use this money for what ever you lust after. It is theirs to do with as they please. It is free-will, it is not a commandment to drink alcohol. This does not dismiss any responsibility off of the person to choose to do what is right.

Stay in context.

 

[steaver]

One is legal and one is illegal.

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Worldwide? The point is moot. One day it will be legal in the USA also. So find another answer.

Here it is again, you still have not answered the question. I asked nothing about why or why not it is ok to partake. I asked....

Please explain the differences and why one is a good for you effect and the other is not.

This is my third attempt at an answer. I beginning to believe my question has you bewildered a bit, as it should.

I am staying on point. Why is it OK to eat when gluttony is condemned in Scripture? At what point is it no longer eating but gluttony? Then move over to alcohol and you have your answers.

You could start a thread on eating, but we are on the topic of alcohol right now.

Rather than taking a verse out of context, let's take a look at the whole passage in context:

29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaining?
Who has wounds without cause?
Who has redness of eyes?
30Those who tarry long over wine;
those who go to try mixed wine.
31Do not look at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup
and goes down smoothly.
32In the end it bites like a serpent
and stings like an adder.
33Your eyes will see strange things,
and your heart utter perverse things.
34You will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea,
like one who lies on the top of a mast.
35"They struck me," you will say, "but I was not hurt;
they beat me, but I did not feel it.
When shall I awake?
I must have another drink."

Tell me what this sounds like: a person who has a glass of wine with dinner or a drunk?

It is a drunk. Now what is God's answer for avoiding the intoxication?

31Do not look at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup
and goes down smoothly.

Didn't you say something about loving a smooth drink?

Now you said that this is God telling the drunk to stop drinking. Well, that would be a bit too late since the man is already drunk!

The passage and context is clear. Drunks have woes and the answer is "don't look at it". Clear cut command that one is not to consume wine that has enough alcohol in it to cause intoxication.

 

[annsni]

Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

There is no command here to drink alcohol. The instruction of the LORD is to use this money for what ever you lust after. It is theirs to do with as they please. It is free-will, it is not a commandment to drink alcohol. This does not dismiss any responsibility off of the person to choose to do what is right.

Stay in context.

God says to buy whatever they desire including wine and strong drink then commands them to eat it before God, rejoicing. What's the problem?

 

[annsni]

Worldwide? The point is moot. One day it will be legal in the USA also. So find another answer.

If it ever becomes legal, then I will have a different answer possibly. But for now, it's illegal and I follow the laws of the US.

Here it is again, you still have not answered the question. I asked nothing about why or why not it is ok to partake. I asked....

Please explain the differences and why one is a good for you effect and the other is not.

This is my third attempt at an answer. I beginning to believe my question has you bewildered a bit, as it should.

Nope - it hasn't bewildered me at all. Actually weed CAN be medically beneficial to some patients. However, medically, the two different substances have a different chemical response in the body. I'm not going to go into the science of it. It's there for you to look it up if you wish.

You could start a thread on eating, but we are on the topic of alcohol right now.

Yet the same principle applies. If eating is OK and gluttony is a sin, why is it so far a stretch to follow God's Word and know that having a drink is OK but drinking to excess and to become drunk is a sin?

It is a drunk. Now what is God's answer for avoiding the intoxication?

31Do not look at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup
and goes down smoothly.

Didn't you say something about loving a smooth drink?

Nope. I didn't.

Now you said that this is God telling the drunk to stop drinking. Well, that would be a bit too late since the man is already drunk!

Not too late. It's a warning.

The passage and context is clear. Drunks have woes and the answer is "don't look at it". Clear cut command that one is not to consume wine that has enough alcohol in it to cause intoxication.

Nope. That is not the clear cut command. It's not the meaning of the passage at all. There is nothing in there about wine that has enough alcohol in it to cause intoxication. God can be a lot more clear than to say to not look at red wine. What about white? What about strong drink? Are those OK? God is clear. Do not get drunk. But enjoy the fruit of the vine as a blessing from Him. If it will cause one to stumble, do not partake and give up your liberty for the sake of another. THAT is clear cut.

 

[steaver]

Why do you choose to ignore the Scriptures? God Himself told the Israelites to drink not just wine but strong drink. Strong drink cannot be anything but alcohol. So where do we stand??

.

Giving freewill does equate to "commanding them to drink it". Are you going to command your children to drink alcohol when they turn twenty-one? Or are you going to acknowledge their free-will to choose for themselves?

God warns His children, advising them to abstain.

Pro 20:1Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Some Christians will be deceived and some CHristians will be wise and hear God's warnings.

Pro 23:31Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, [when] it moveth itself aright.



"Don't let the sparkle and smooth taste of wine deceive you." (NLT)

 

[steaver]

God says to buy whatever they desire including wine and strong drink then commands them to eat it before God, rejoicing. What's the problem?

So you say that God ordered everyone to drink alcohol here? If that is your position then you must tell everyone that God orders us all to drink alcohol.

 

[annsni]

So you say that God ordered everyone to drink alcohol here? If that is your position then you must tell everyone that God orders us all to drink alcohol.

"Buy whatever your heart desires - lamb, beef, chicken, wine, strong drink - and drink it here in front of me, rejoicing in it."

What does that seem to you?? Yes, God told them to buy strong drink or wine if they wish and drink it before Him. IF alcohol were prohibited, do you think He'd tell them to buy it if they wish? I don't see Him saying to go ahead and worship idols if they wish - to fornicate if they wish - to murder if they wish. Why would He say to buy it and enjoy it in front of Him if it were wrong?

 

[annsni]

So you say that God ordered everyone to drink alcohol here? If that is your position then you must tell everyone that God orders us all to drink alcohol.

I guess reading isn't your strong point. Maybe work on that comprehension.

 

[steaver]

If it ever becomes legal, then I will have a different answer possibly. But for now, it's illegal and I follow the laws of the US.

.

The law here in Pa states that .08 blood alcohol content is drunk. That would be 12oz of beer or 4oz of wine for anyone under 130lbs. Over that weight and you can have a couple more ozs. These figures are for legally declared drunk by the law. Studies show that .05 is also drunk but not to the degree of arrest. Not yet anyways, give then some more time.

So when you did have a drink Ann, did you stay under 4 ounces of wine?

How about you other guys defending this? Just one and done? Two would declare you drunk by law and by scientific studies.

Nope - it hasn't bewildered me at all. Actually weed CAN be medically beneficial to some patients. However, medically, the two different substances have a different chemical response in the body. I'm not going to go into the science of it. It's there for you to look it up if you wish.

That's what I thought. Ok.

Yet the same principle applies. If eating is OK and gluttony is a sin, why is it so far a stretch to follow God's Word and know that having a drink is OK but drinking to excess and to become drunk is a sin?

God doesn't say this about food....

Pro 20:1Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Pro 23:31Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, [when] it moveth itself aright.

Nope. That is not the clear cut command. It's not the meaning of the passage at all. There is nothing in there about wine that has enough alcohol in it to cause intoxication.

Are you saying this is non-alcoholic wine spoken of? If not, then it is wine that has enough alcohol in it to cause intoxication. Even "near beer" has a minute trace of alcohol in it, but you could never drink enough of it to get drunk. The wine the disciples would have been drinking would be such a wine. So weak that they would have had to drink gallons of it to get a buzz. Which one would probably throw up from too much juice before ever reaching a drunk.

No, this debate is not about choice of beverage. This is about choice of drug and seeking a drunk. How many of you ever said "I need a drink"? What you are really saying is "I need a drug". God says seek Him, not the wine or beer.

 

[steaver]

"Buy whatever your heart desires - lamb, beef, chicken, wine, strong drink - and drink it here in front of me, rejoicing in it."

What does that seem to you?? Yes, God told them to buy strong drink or wine if they wish and drink it before Him. IF alcohol were prohibited, do you think He'd tell them to buy it if they wish? I don't see Him saying to go ahead and worship idols if they wish - to fornicate if they wish - to murder if they wish. Why would He say to buy it and enjoy it in front of Him if it were wrong?

We know by science today that one "strong drink" is enough to make a person drunk. So are you suggesting that God was telling them to get drunk?

 

[Zenas]

Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

There is no command here to drink alcohol. The instruction of the LORD is to use this money for what ever you lust after. It is theirs to do with as they please. It is free-will, it is not a commandment to drink alcohol. This does not dismiss any responsibility off of the person to choose to do what is right.

Stay in context.

Wow! Talk about selective interpretation of scripture! When I observed that Proverbs 23:21 "says nothing about drinking," you responded with sarcasm about my narrow reading of the verse. Yet you are doing the same thing with Deuteronomy 14:26. Why would God tell the peopleto buy something they were forbidden to consume?

 

[steaver]

Wow! Talk about selective interpretation of scripture! When I observed that Proverbs 23:21 "says nothing about drinking," you responded with sarcasm about my narrow reading of the verse. Yet you are doing the same thing with Deuteronomy 14:26. Why would God tell the peopleto buy something they were forbidden to consume?

Good question Zenas!

God, knowing that "strong drink" will most certainly cause drunkenness ordering them to drink it. Does that make sense?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Just a thought. God is well able to give one that which their heart desires, yet send leaness to their souls. He also can send a lying prophet to test ones obedience.

If a person is desiring something, I think if they look long and hard enough at Scipture they could find some justification for their desires. It is almost as if God has allowed enough latitude in Scripture to reveal the true heart of those claiming to love Him.

 

[jaigner]

Just a thought. God is well able to give one that which their heart desires, yet send leaness to their souls. He also can send a lying prophet to test ones obedience.

If a person is desiring something, I think if they look long and hard enough at Scipture they could find some justification for their desires. It is almost as if God has allowed enough latitude in Scripture to reveal the true heart of those claiming to love Him.

Do you seriously think those of us with the freedom to consume alcohol are deceived? Because of alcohol?

The Bible has to be interpreted in light of its original historical and textual context. Sometimes the obvious meaning isn't what it truly says to us today. Often it does, but usually not.

But asserting that those of us who consume or are okay with responsible consumption are dishonest in our interpretation of scripture is plain misguided and narrow.

 

[steaver]

But asserting that those of us who consume or are okay with responsible consumption are dishonest in our interpretation of scripture is plain misguided and narrow.

"Responsible consumption"

Ok, do you stick with the one 12 ounce beer or 4 ounce glass of wine guideline for drunkenness?

Just what is the difference between "merry" and "drunk"? Please define by some sort of facts.

 

[annsni]

"Responsible consumption"

Ok, do you stick with the one 12 ounce beer or 4 ounce glass of wine guideline for drunkenness?

Just what is the difference between "merry" and "drunk"? Please define by some sort of facts.

Ask God - He's the One who has spoken of it.