Wine is fine

[blackbird]

Here we go again!!!! Believe ME or not(as well as big al)--I just got off the phone with a dude who lives in another city in a distant state--called me long distance(one of my church members works with him in the oil industry)--anyway--

His marriage is on the rocks! His family is busted up! All because of alcohol--and this social drinking thing you guys rant and rave about being so good---I thought while I was on the phone with him---trying to encourage him--"Wow! I am so thankful he ain't talkin' with some of the BB social drinkers!! He'd be doomed for sure!!"

This man's wife left him because of alcohol! She isn't running away from that man--she's runnin' away from whats ruining his life--social drinking! Oh, its gonna take work to get that marriage started again---

You guys know what I think about social drinking?? Deception of the devil!
Blackbird

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by blackbird:
His marriage is on the rocks! His family is busted up! All because of alcohol

Actually, it's not alcohol's fault. It's the man's fault, for *abusing* alcohol. I know a guy whose marriage is on the rocks, and his family is busted up, because he abused sex. Blackbird, we've been over this. Abuse of an item does not make the item itself bad.

You guys know what I think about social drinking?? Deception of the devil!

And yet God gave wine as a blessing to man (see the 3rd post on the second pages of this thread). You dare to call God's blessing a "deception of the devil"? As a Bible believing Baptist, I have no choice but to strongly disagree with you.

 

[Jim1999]

I just read the title of this thread,,wine is fine.......the first thing that came to my mind was something I heard the soldiers saying when I was with the military,,,,Wine is fine, but liquor is quicker........I guess that's the way I see all alcohol..it just isn't needed as a beverage.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[fgm]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
I just read the title of this thread,,wine is fine.......the first thing that came to my mind was something I heard the soldiers saying when I was with the military,,,,Wine is fine, but liquor is quicker........I guess that's the way I see all alcohol..it just isn't needed as a beverage.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim as the starter of this thread I do agree that wine is not NEEDED.My point is that it is acceptable to use during communion or a Little amount for digestive purposes.These points are backed by scripture.

 

[blackbird]

BrianT--I know we've been over this--and I know that you're not going to be able to drag me away from the truth! The truth says that wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging and whoso is deceived thereby is not wise!

Not long ago I visited a fella at his glass store here in town. I had some window panes out and had to replace them. Anyway, I was in his shop talking with him when I eyed this big giant glass aquirium on the floor--the sides stood about 4 feet high--about six feet in diameter. I peered in and saw to my amazement---8 or 10 coiled up Rattlesnakes! The guy collected them! Now, the point here is that there was no way I was gonna get on "their" side of the glass! Stayin' on "my side" of the glass was my way of not abusing them! I feel that if I had wanted to abuse them--that they would not have found my abusement much amusement!!

I'm gonna stay on "my side" of the glass of wine or whatever you find amuseing! And I'll encourage every air breathing man, woman, boy, or girl to stay with me!! I'd rather take my chances with those Rattlesnakes than with that drink. Because the Rattlesnake might or might not bite me--but the alcohol will "bite" everytime!!

I'll obstain until the end! Besides the fact--noone abuses alcohol! Rather alcohol abuses the person!

Brother David

 

[Ben W]

Here is a challenge,

Explain to me why if it is not right to drink Alcohol when our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ did so, and made it and supplied it to others?

Bear in mind that Jesus did this, and He was "Without Sin".

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Jim as the starter of this thread I do agree that wine is not NEEDED.My point is that it is acceptable to use during communion or a Little amount for digestive purposes.These points are backed by scripture.

Amen, amen, amen!!!

Yet, some on here would be willing to condemn our obedience to God during the Lord's Supper. I tell you what, if alcohol is ever outlawed, I will just have to break the law in order to be obedient to God.

How dare anyone say that if we partake of wine, even during the Lord's Supper, that we are sinning. I'll go one better. If you DON'T partake of wine during the Lord's Supper, you are sinning. How about that?

Before you condemn us, for doing what the Bible tells us to, maybe you should read your Bible and study some of those passages that were highlighted on the top of page two on this thread. You may argue with us, but I want to see you argue with scripture.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by blackbird:
BrianT--I know we've been over this--and I know that you're not going to be able to drag me away from the truth!

Blackbird, I'm not trying to drag you anywhere. But speaking of the truth, you are interested in the truth, aren't you? You consider the scriptures to be true, don't you? What do you think of the scriptures I posted near the top of page 2 of this thread?

Here's a question, answer truthfully after reading those scriptures, with a simply 'yea' or 'nay' (Matt 5:37, James 5:12): Is wine a blessing from God?

 

[dianetavegia]

If you DON'T partake of wine during the Lord's Supper, you are sinning. How about that?

Bro. James Reed said that.

Bro. James, just as the wine is symbolic of the blood and the bread is symbolic of the body, so is the grape juice and cracker symbolic of the wine and bread. Don't limit God! To say one is sinning if they use something other than the exact liquid or exact bread is absolutely silly! The SYMBOLIC gesture is what Christ spoke of when he said 'as often as you do, do this in rememberance of me'. If my heart is pure and my motive is right, I could use any drink and any bread. Don't 'worship' or 'idolize' the act or raise communion above the condition of one's heart!

Diane

 

[Bro. James Reed]

If my heart is pure and my motive is right

Although I disagree with you, how could you use this statement in favor of using grape juice and crackers, while at the same time condemning the rest of us for using this logic in regards to alcohol?

 

[dianetavegia]

You said it is SIN NOT to use wine. I did NOT say it was sin to USE wine! I am convicted to NOT drink. You and others want to FORCE me to sin (Because I am convicted to not drink... and my drinking would therefore be sin) by pushing the use of alcohol on me and my family! How can it be wrong for me to NOT drink?

Proverbs 1:10
My son, if sinners entice you, Do not consent.
If they say, "Come with us, Let us lie in wait for blood, Let us ambush the innocent without cause;

Diane

p.s. I come from a family with alcoholic tendancies. Brother, uncles, great grandfather....

[ July 01, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

[Jim1999]

It is strange how we can find every excuse in the book to imbibe a beverage that has the ability to mar our thinking and our witness.

I really don't care if you or anyone else drinks alcohol. Certainly you can find it used in biblical times. I have no argument with that. I still maintain the world looks at us differently, and they don't count the drinks we take, just that we drink.

My reasons for not touching it is simple. I have seen too much abuse; abuse of the person; abuse of the family; abuse behind the wheel and resultant deaths, that I just don't want to be near it. I really don't care if you think it is not the alcohol, but the person, because if that person hadn't had the alcohol, they wouldn't get drunk.

Cheers,,,,,,,as for me and my house......

Jim

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
It is strange how we can find every excuse in the book to imbibe a beverage that has the ability to mar our thinking and our witness.

I don't think anyone here is finding "every excuse". The bulk of support has been from scripture itself.

I still maintain the world looks at us differently, and they don't count the drinks we take, just that we drink.

The same was true in Christ's time. They called Jesus a "winebibber". Why did Jesus not abstain, if simply for appearances to those that would get hung up on his partaking?

My reasons for not touching it is simple. I have seen too much abuse; abuse of the person; abuse of the family; abuse behind the wheel and resultant deaths, that I just don't want to be near it. I really don't care if you think it is not the alcohol, but the person, because if that person hadn't had the alcohol, they wouldn't get drunk.

Do you apply the same reasoning to other things? Sex is HUGELY abused in North America, even more than alcohol, destroying families, spreading disease, harming and degrading women (sometimes killing them). Some people abuse unhealthy food - obesity is at an all time high in North America, killing people while they are still young and costing the health care system billions. Computers are widely abused, used for hacking bank accounts, stealing information, breaking copyright laws, spreading pornography, spreading hate propoganda, stealing people's time when they could be with their families or at church or witnessing to friends. And don't even get me started on the abuse of MONEY, which is probably abused worse than all the above, including alcohol, combined. Jim, are you abstaining from these things too? Why not?

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Bro. James, just as the wine is symbolic of the blood and the bread is symbolic of the body, so is the grape juice and cracker symbolic of the wine and bread.

Grape juiice has bacteria in it, and bacteria (or yeast) is often symbolic of evil. The alcohol purifies the wine. In fact, people used to use wine to purify water by mixing wine with it.

IMO, the purer symbolism of the blood of Jesus is wine, not grape juice.

Also IMO, we dishonor God to use grape juice, because we introduce bacteria (corruption) into the Lord's supper simply because we are following man's non-Biblical rule that we shouldn't use any alcohol.

In my mind, that is no different than how the Pharisees turned the sabbath into a legalistic nightmare. If you recall, Jesus spent an enormous amount of time debunking their man-centered legalistic views of the sabbath. I can't help but wonder if Jesus would feel the same about these self-righteous attitudes about wine.

 

[dianetavegia]

Romans 14: 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

How do you answer this scripture?

 

[KPBAP]

Seriously, wine is an acquired taste.

Food is an acquired taste. Ever see a baby eat strained peas???

 

[KPBAP]

Food is an acquired taste.

Ever see a baby eat strained peas???

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Romans 14: 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

How do you answer this scripture? </font>[/QUOTE]I'll answer your question about specific scriptures if you answer mine. I've been asking for 3 pages now.

 

[blackbird]

You guys are the ones straining at a knat!!! Bacteria in grape juice???? Boys, get your chemistry right!! Go back to any Junior High chemistry lab and prove for yourselves which has the bacteria---what makes you guys think that alcohol content is pure like Jesus? Alcohol is an inhibiter of the mind! Its not an inhancer! Its an intoxicant! But its like talkin' to a "brick wall!" ain't it, Diane!!

Brother David

 

[dianetavegia]

Those Old Testament verses do not command me to drink wine yet this New Testament verse tells me:

All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

Therefore... MY verse takes precedence over your Old Testament excuse TO drink.

Honestly, I believe that all of you who fight so strongly for the rest of us to give you permission to drink are under conviction to NOT drink and guilt is the driving force behind this battle for our acceptance!

Diane