Featured With thanks to SavedByMercy for defending Calvinsm

I tend to like the Barney Fife approach best: "He's a NUT!" :tongue3:

 

PT....your interaction with sbm aside.







you are not really saying that all...always means all are you?

or world always means every person in the world no matter what the context says?

for example explain;

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive

In the first all.....in Adam......all mankind died

In the second All...in Christ....do you believe it means all mankind are in Christ?......or is there any chance this could be speaking of those scripture calls the elect, a multitude of persons given to the Son?

 

Icon - No, I'm not. I don't believe it always means "All." I believe we have to use context. There are some non-Cals who hold to "All always means All." The are some Cals who hold to any reference of "All," "All men," or "the world" always means the Elect. I'd prefer to be found in the middle ground where contextual clues determine the meaning of the text.

That said, I do often fall more towards the side of "All" means "All", but I'm also a believer in man having an option placed before him by the Lord that he may freely accept or reject. It goes back to our simple disagreement over scriptural interpretation. It has caused much strife and ill-will.

I hope that makes sense, or at least offers some clarity to my stance.

 

I believe it was the Church that is being identified as the all in Adam that died, not all mankind, that would not fit the context of the subject matter.

Paul speaking of the Church says 1 Cor 15:49

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The we's here in this verse is restricted to the Church, the Body of Christ. Nowhere in the context of 1 Cor 15 is all mankind in view !

 

Here's the problem with that contextual interpretation: 1 Cor 15 is to the Church.

To make this statement is to say that the non-elect do not bear the image of the earthy; that they somehow physically look different than the Elect. Please clarify.

 

There is nothing to clarify, the context of all of 1 Cor 15 is about the Church, the we in 1 Cor 15:49 is speaking solely of the Church, the Body of Christ. To interject the rest of mankind into it is unwarrented and has nothing to do with Pauls point !

 

SBM,

Even if Paul is speaking to church persons in particular in 1cor 15.....the reality is that romans 5 casts a shadow over this passage.

The church as a subset is included in all mankind which did die in Adam.[rom5]

I understand that he is addressing death in 1cor 15.[that we die being born in adam]

The Church is only found in Christ. He died for the church, all given by the Father. The atonement and particular nature of the redemption are found in the Covenant.:wavey::wavey:


SBM......if you do not mind a word of advise....We know what the bible teaches on election and predestination. It is not going to change or go away because some do not understand it yet, or at this point are in outright rebellion against the truth of God.
I hold a firm line on the teaching. Some think I am not firm enough, some others think I go over the line.
We do not have to look for ways to go beyond where the Historic churches have gone do we? How do your beliefs stack up with the historic confessions of faith?

Was it you that a few weeks ago suggested God was the author of sin??? I hope I am not correct on this! No biblical reformed person believes that. That is a theological third rail!

 

Romans 5 is the same, Paul is speaking of the Church. Not a subset, but the Church, the Body of Christ. The Elect have a natural beginning in Adam, which is contrasted with their being in Christ. Neither in Romans 5 or 1 Cor 15 the experience is only of the Church, nothing at all about the non elect.

 

icon

All who died in Adam, were all those who were made in Adam in the Image and Likeness of God. That can only apply to the Church, all those who have been predestinated to the Image of Christ ! We dont have any evidence that the non elect, who shall perish, ever were made in the Image and Likeness of God !

 

The elect? The non-elect? The evidence?
If there is no free will how do you give evidence that you are one of the elect?
How do you know?

 

For the record, brother Icon, SBM has stated:

- 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." Actually means that the gospel is permanently hidden to the lost.

- Faith is a work of the Law (creating a contradiction with Ephesians 2:8 that he refuses to address)

-People are either born saved or born damned and nothing can change that (which to me indicates that Paul was off the mark in some of his writing, as the preaching of the gospel is not required for salvation in that scenario)

-And the kicker to it all:

 

Evasion and Rabbit Trail question !

 

Isn't the ultimate evidence of election faith? John 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep."

 

No. You are mistaken; This is where you are going over the edge....

vs 12 is speaking of all men everywhere, not only that but all sinned in Adam at one point in time. rom3:23,5:12...to deny this is to deny Adams federal headship. There is no need to do this unless you want to, but you will be wrong
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

So what do the non-elect look like?

 

No Rom 5:12 is speaking of the Church, the Body of Christ ! So is vs 15 ff ! You think that the all men in Vs 18 includes the non elect ?

 

Are all men born condemned? of course it is speaking of all men. If they remain in Adam they remain in the realm of death:thumbs: If it is not speaking of all men, all men are not condemned!

All men everywhere are made in the image and likeness of God. The image has been broken by the fall. Christians are restored image bearers, yet all men retain the image in the conscience.

 

You evaded my question about Vs 18 ?

 

The question is asked, are all men born already condemned ? The answer is No ! Those men and women Christ died for, by His death alone, they are reconciled to God while they're enemies, sinners and ungodly unbelievers Rom 5:10 , so they are not born condemned but already reconciled by the Death of God's Son !

 

Yes, I believe that.