Without Me You Can Do Nothing

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here is an interesting passage. What if I were to say, Sola Biblica! Everything man does according to this passage is directly caused of God. You can not even sin unless God helps you to sin.

What would be your response?

 

[TCGreek]

I would say this passage needs to be viewed in light of Who God is and Who man is and what sin is, and what do you mean by God helps someone to sin?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

What if I were to say...You can not even sin unless God helps you to sin.

I would say that you to learn to rightly divide the Word of God. The context is speaking of bearing fruit. We can bear no fruit that remains without Him. He is the vine, the source of our strength which supplies all things necessary for us to produce fruit. Apart from the vine, we are without value.

God endowed each of us with a free will. If we choose to sin, we can be assured that it is our own doing. In fact, God goes the extra mile to provide a way for us to escape that sin.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I'm teaching some 4 & 5 year olds aside from the
worship service (so called 'Children's Church' which
is really 'Children'sWorship):

Me: God made everything
God made the cows (semil-rural area, you know)
God made our Mommy & Daddy
God made people
God made the land
God made the sea
...
Who made the cows?

Kids: God
(etc through the list)

Me: Who made the cars?

Kids: God

Well, there was this one little 4-year old
whose Mommy & Daddy made the cars at
the Chevy Factory.

Sorry guys, I ain't buying God causes everything
(such as sin). I don't see how you can blame God
for your sin (really a cop-out to say that one )

 

[Scarlett O.]

You left out a very critical piece of scripture. You said, "Without Me you can do nothing." Yes, those words are in the bible. But they are attached to MORE words.

Jesus actually said: (My paraphrasing)

John 15:4-5 - "Abide in me and I in you. A branch can't bear fruit all by itself unless it is connected to the vine. In the same way, you can't bear (the fruit of the Spirit) unless you are abiding in me. I am the vine. You are the branch. If anyone abides in me and I in him, he or she will bear MUCH fruit.....but apart from me.....you can't bear anything (Godly)."

Matthew 12:33-34 - "A good tree will bear good fruit and a bad tree will bear bad fruit. The tree is known by its fruit. You bunch of snakes! How can you, being evil, speak any good words? It's what's in your heart that mouth speaks. A good person out of the good treasures of the heart brings good things. And evil person out of the evil treasures of the heart brings evil things."

To say that a person cannot even sin without God's help is to not understand the context in which Jesus was speaking when he spoke about bearing fruit.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Bob: God endowed each of us with a free will. If we choose to sin, we can be assured that it is our own doing.

HP: If I were to ask you to tell us the difference between a will that is free and one that is under force or coercion, how would you explain to us the difference? You seem to be sincere about placing a disconnect between God or anyone else and our sin…………or do you?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Scarlett O: To say that a person cannot even sin without God's help is to not understand the context in which Jesus was speaking when he spoke about bearing fruit.

HP: Just the same it said ‘nothing.’
You know I agree with you, but I am trying to illustrate how some approach the Word of God when we speak of God granting to men 'eternal' life, as if though our wills have been totally disconnected from the penalty of the law if in fact we continue to reble and go our own way. I am trying to illustrate how some speak as if though faith and repentance are simply gifts of God arbitrarily conferred upon some and withheld from others with our will and subsequent choices disconnected from the receiving or keeping of those ‘gifts.’

A few more ideas will most likely surface as we go along.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Ed: Sorry guys, I ain't buying God causes everything
(such as sin). I don't see how you can blame God
for your sin (really a cop-out to say that one )

HP: Neither do I. Neither do I accept that because God states that faith or repentance are gifts of God, or that we will receive the gift of ‘eternal’ life that our wills are in disconnect mode in either receiving or keeping those promised gifts.

We have but two choices, Either man is a first cause and remains so in this present world, or God is the only cause and as such is ultimately responsible for all acts, whether or not sin or righteousness. Something has to be the cause of the effects we see. Again, when we disconnect man’s will from the conditions God has placed upon man to receive eternal life, or disconnect man’s will from continuing to obey as a condition of a sure hope of eternal life as Scripture informs us is the case, we are in essence approaching those passages of Scripture as wrong as I approached the one in the OP.

 

[BobRyan]

Just to point out that HP is not "making stuff up" when he supposes that some have the idea that "God helps/causes us to sin" -- (These links are from the "old" BB address so they may not work)

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1463/3.html#000041

John said –

He punishes us for simply carrying out His plans and wishes until He saves us, then we are forgiven. The others He punishes for simply carrying out His plans and wishes. Pharaoh will tell you that. EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

…
And if I treated my kids like God treats man I would be locked up for a long long time! HaHa! You forget that I am not Sovereign Wes. Look what He did to Pharaoh man! He can do as He pleases.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I press the point of “Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion” with John after seeing the post above – and he responds.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1463/4.html#000045

quote: Bob said

--Are you talking about God or Satan?

John responds –
Then why does God still blame us Bob? Satan can do nothing he is under the Despot as we all are. God is Sovereign.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Just to point out that HP is not "making stuff up" when he supposes that some have the idea that "God helps/causes us to sin" -- (These links are from the "old" BB address so they may not work)

...

[URL="http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1463/3.html#000041"]http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1463/3.html#000041[/URL]

...

It is on this page now:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=29682&page=4

PM me & I'll tell you how to use Google

 

[skypair]

Me: Who made the cars?

Kids: God

Well, there was this one little 4-year old
whose Mommy & Daddy made the cars at
the Chevy Factory.

Sorry guys, I ain't buying God causes everything
(such as sin). I don't see how you can blame God
for your sin (really a cop-out to say that one )

Very good, Ed. Sin and cars are made by the creature, not the Creator.

And this further demonstrates a mind or spirit that is independent of God's will and capable determining their own destiny -- either with God or apart from Him (IOW, free will).

skypair

 

[Pastor_Bob]

If I were to ask you to tell us the difference between a will that is free and one that is under force or coercion, how would you explain to us the difference? You seem to be sincere about placing a disconnect between God or anyone else and our sin…………or do you?

Men were given a free will by God. This is the freedom to make moral decisions, knowing that each of our decisions come with a corresponding consequence, either bad or good. However, I do believe that man is also under force in the sense that our fallen nature makes it impossible for us to choose good over evil without God's help. Paul declares very clearly that, although he has a free will to do right, as a fallen creature he does not have the ability to do right on his own.

As far as the disconnect between God and our sin, I believe very strongly that God does not tempt us to sin or cause us to sin. He gave us (in Adam) the choice and we chose sin. Now it is our nature to sin. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. That is the unfortunate consequence of our decision to disobey God.

 

[TCGreek]

We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. That is the unfortunate consequence of our decision to disobey God.

When will we realize this obvious reality and consequently, truth? Now, that is what I call biblical anthropology!

 

[BobRyan]

Men were given a free will by God. This is the freedom to make moral decisions, knowing that each of our decisions come with a corresponding consequence, either bad or good. However, I do believe that man is also under force in the sense that our fallen nature makes it impossible for us to choose good over evil without God's help. Paul declares very clearly that, although he has a free will to do right, as a fallen creature he does not have the ability to do right on his own.

As far as the disconnect between God and our sin, I believe very strongly that God does not tempt us to sin or cause us to sin. He gave us (in Adam) the choice and we chose sin. Now it is our nature to sin. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. That is the unfortunate consequence of our decision to disobey God.

As Ed would say ...

Preach it!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

When will we realize this obvious reality and consequently, truth? Now, that is what I call biblical anthropology!

While it is true that the Romans 3 definition of the sinful nature dictates that the lost are in some way a servant to sin (Romans 6 states that we are SLAVES of the one we obey) -- yet God provides the supernatural element needed for ALL to break free from that slavery.

"I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

Through the Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

So while it is true that "of our own selves we can do no good thing" yet the drawing of God ENABLES the choice that total depravity disables.

in some cases that choice is to accept salvation.

In other cases that choice is to continue to listen to the Holy Spirit if not yet completely resolved to surrender.

Hence the notion of the sinner "hardening his heart" rather than simply STARTING out as the dead with NO possibility of hardening any more than already deadened.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[skypair]

We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. That is the unfortunate consequence of our decision to disobey God.

When will we realize this obvious reality and consequently, truth? Now, that is what I call biblical anthropology!

Careful now or you will have God creating sin. If we "sin because we are sinners," then God created sinners - even Adam. And too, then infants are sinners and going to hell. I know such things kind of "roll of peoples' tongues" without much thought *, but that is where all this leads and you will have to "invent" a new "gospel" to save infants.

But if we "are sinners because we sin," then sin is our fault and responsibility and we were NOT created sinners. Infants then are saved by innocence which the Bible does teach (if any could maintain innocence).

skypair

*Dr Rogers said this as well, but it's a "chicken and egg" dilemma. If you say we are born sinners, you convict and blame God (and wouldn't that false accusation be blasphemy?). If you say we sin at some point in our lives which makes us sinners for the rest of our lives, then you rightly convict man.

 

[BobRyan]

There is another option.

Suppose "God so loved the World that he GAVE" and that "HE is not willing for ANY to perish but ALL to come to repentance" -

Suppose that the blood of Christ covers the infants from the very start -- they need a savior and they have one right from the start.

That means that although their sinful nature will not be going to heaven (should they perish as infants) yet they are not lost simply because they do not have the ability to accept the Gospel. Rather they are saved and as they grow they come to the point of decision -- needing to accept Christ or reject Him. If they reject then they are lost.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[skypair]

Hence the notion of the sinner "hardening his heart" rather than simply STARTING out as the dead with NO possibility of hardening any more than already deadened.

This raises a good point --- "hardened" from what? from being "totally depraved?" Doesn't even Calvinism have to admit that we start out somewhere less than "totally depraved?"

Again, Adrian Rogers can make that statement when speaking to a congregation of ADULTS and not be blaming God. But ("chicken and egg") it is not totally true, is it?

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

Yes - I believe Calvinism has to allow for "hardening" which means that Calvinists even in the doctrine of total depravity have to admit that people start out less than totall and absolutely corrupted the way a hardened sinner would be -- Pharaoh for example at the end of his life vs the average 10 year old in the camp of Israel who had not yet made his choice to be a saint.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Skypair: Dr Rogers said this as well, but it's a "chicken and egg" dilemma. If you say we are born sinners, you convict and blame God (and wouldn't that false accusation be blasphemy?). If you say we sin at some point in our lives which makes us sinners for the rest of our lives, then you rightly convict man.

HP: I listened to Dr. (Adrian) Rogers many times in the past. Are we speaking of the same man? I cannot believe for the life of me that he would say anything so utterly opposed to the many statements I have heard that would lead me to other conclusions as to his beliefs. Would you by chance have a quote for us? Thanks.