Without the general redemptton being true.

[37818]

On the assumption that you meant to cite Hebrews 10:17, even with an (incorrect IMO) understanding of a general redemption how can one know from the written word of God that one has 'the New Covenant forgiveness'? One should know, and I've told you why on another thread, but I'd like to know your reasoning and why you're banging on about this.

Yes, the ref was to be Hebrews 10:17. And my point being without an understanding of a general redemption no one knows one is saved. Merely supposing is not knowing.

Who are literally the "you" in Luke 22:19-20?

 

[AustinC]

Yes, the ref was to be Hebrews 10:17. And my point being without an understanding of a general redemption no one knows one is saved. Merely supposing is not knowing.

Who are literally the "you" in Luke 22:19-20?

This is a myth you are telling yourself and you refuse to see it.

 

[Silverhair]

Faith Comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of Christ. Rom 10
For by grace are you saved by faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God. Eph 2

God gives you the gift of faith, and he does it through the instrumentality of hearing the word of God. And then you believe and are passed form death to life, and you realize that Christ died for your sins, but you did not believe it before the word came.

You got close to but still missed.
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT G189?"
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing G189, and hearing by the word of God.

The Gospel message is the means by which we learn of God and the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Baxter

Remembered that the word for “report” G189 in Rom_10:16, and for “hearing” G189 in Rom_10:17, is the same, but with a slight difference of meaning. In the first place, both the act of hearer and preacher are involved; in the second place, only the act of the hearer. Ellicott

G189
ἀκοή
akoē
Thayer Definition:
1) the sense of hearing
2) the organ of hearing, the ear
3) the thing heard
3a) instruction, namely oral
3a1) of preaching the gospel
3b) hearsay, report or rumour

So you see that Romans 10.16-17 and Ephesians 1:13 show us the same truth. We must hear the gospel and believe {faith} the gospel before we are saved.

 

[Piper]

You got close to but still missed.
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT G189?"
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing G189, and hearing by the word of God.

The Gospel message is the means by which we learn of God and the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Baxter

Remembered that the word for “report” G189 in Rom_10:16, and for “hearing” G189 in Rom_10:17, is the same, but with a slight difference of meaning. In the first place, both the act of hearer and preacher are involved; in the second place, only the act of the hearer. Ellicott

G189
ἀκοή
akoē
Thayer Definition:
1) the sense of hearing
2) the organ of hearing, the ear
3) the thing heard
3a) instruction, namely oral
3a1) of preaching the gospel
3b) hearsay, report or rumour

So you see that Romans 10.16-17 and Ephesians 1:13 show us the same truth. We must hear the gospel and believe {faith} the gospel before we are saved.

That is your interpretive opinion.
I believe that we must be regenerated before we believe.

 

[unprofitable]

You got close to but still missed.
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT G189?"
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing G189, and hearing by the word of God.

The Gospel message is the means by which we learn of God and the gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Baxter

Remembered that the word for “report” G189 in Rom_10:16, and for “hearing” G189 in Rom_10:17, is the same, but with a slight difference of meaning. In the first place, both the act of hearer and preacher are involved; in the second place, only the act of the hearer. Ellicott

G189
ἀκοή
akoē
Thayer Definition:
1) the sense of hearing
2) the organ of hearing, the ear
3) the thing heard
3a) instruction, namely oral
3a1) of preaching the gospel
3b) hearsay, report or rumour

So you see that Romans 10.16-17 and Ephesians 1:13 show us the same truth. We must hear the gospel and believe {faith} the gospel before we are saved.

Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD HATH NOT GIVEN you a heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Kinda leaves out man's ability to believe without the enabling work of God.

 

[Silverhair]

God does not give faith... Faith is the fruit of the spirit... If you brethren would believe John 3:16, then you can understand what the gift that is not of yourself is, that God gave... It's not your faith that saves you, ITS HIS!... Brother Glen

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I agree God does not give man faith as faith comes through conviction that the evidence we have is true. If there is no conviction there will be no conversion. For salvation one must believe that the evidence, the gospel, of Christ Jesus is true. Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31 That is why we are told in Ephesians 2:8 that by the grace of God we are saved because of our faith.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

 

[Silverhair]

I assume no such thing. That is what the Apostle Paul did was go around preaching the gospel.



There is no "general redemption". Christ died for His sheep. He said so. Christ did not die for the goats. He did not say that died for the goats. He pointedly said that He died for His sheep.

He also died for ALL UNGODLY SINNERS. So as you can see there is a general redemption, all can be saved, but only those that trust in the risen Christ will be saved.

1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all,
Heb 2:9 might taste death for everyone.
Joh 3:15 whoever believes in Him
Joh 3:17 the world
Rom 5:6 Christ died for the ungodly.
2Pe 2:1 false prophets
Joh 11:51 Jesus would die for the nation, {Israel}
Eph 5:25 the church
Gal 2:20 who loved me and gave Himself for me. {Paul / me}

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes, the ref was to be Hebrews 10:17. And my point being without an understanding of a general redemption no one knows one is saved. Merely supposing is not knowing.

Who are literally the "you" in Luke 22:19-20?

So what are you saying? Could Judas Iscariot know for sure that he was saved (John 17:12)??
At my church, we have 'open' communion, and we tell everyone that it is only for those who know and love the Lord Jesus Christ and that others should let the bread and wine pass them by. We then conduct the communion on the basis that everyone taking part is saved. If someone takes part who doesn't know the Lord, the words we speak don't apply to him. I would take our Lord's words in Luke 22:19-20 in that way.

Here is what the 1689 Confession has to say on the matter:

Chapter 18: Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation

1. Although temporary believers, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God and state of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish; yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.
( Job 8:13, 14; Matthew 7:22, 23; 1 John 2:3; 1 John 3:14, 18, 19, 21, 24; 1 John 5:13; Romans 5:2, 5 )



2. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith founded on the blood and righteousness of Christ revealed in the Gospel; and also upon the inward evidence of those graces of the Spirit unto which promises are made, and on the testimony of the Spirit of adoption, witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; and, as a fruit thereof, keeping the heart both humble and holy.
( Hebrews 6:11, 19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 2 Peter 1:4, 5, 10, 11; Romans 8:15, 16; 1 John 3:1-3 )



3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it; yet being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of means, attain thereunto: and therefore it is the duty of every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; -so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
( Isaiah 50:10; Psalms 88; Psalms 77:1-12; 1 John 4:13; Hebrews 6:11, 12; Romans 5:1, 2, 5; Romans 14:17; Psalms 119:32; Romans 6:1,2; Titus 2:11, 12, 14 )



4. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light, yet are they never destitute of the seed of God and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the meantime, they are preserved from utter despair.
( Song of Solomon 5:2, 3, 6; Psalms 51:8, 12, 14; Psalms 116:11; Psalms 77:7, 8; Psalms 31:22; Psalms 30:7; 1 John 3:9; Luke 22:32; Psalms 42:5, 11; Lamentations 3:26-31 )

 

[37818]

This is a myth you are telling yourself and you refuse to see it.

Meanigless.
What myth?

 

[37818]

So what are you saying? Could Judas Iscariot know for sure that he was saved (John 17:12)??

Judas wasn't saved and he was included in that "you." You are not hearing.

Luke 22:19-20. Judas was included and not saved.

 

[37818]

Here is what the 1689 Confession has to say on the matter:

Chapter 18: Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation

1. Although temporary believers, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God and state of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish; yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.
( Job 8:13, 14; Matthew 7:22, 23; 1 John 2:3; 1 John 3:14, 18, 19, 21, 24; 1 John 5:13; Romans 5:2, 5 )



2. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith founded on the blood and righteousness of Christ revealed in the Gospel; and also upon the inward evidence of those graces of the Spirit unto which promises are made, and on the testimony of the Spirit of adoption, witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; and, as a fruit thereof, keeping the heart both humble and holy.
( Hebrews 6:11, 19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 2 Peter 1:4, 5, 10, 11; Romans 8:15, 16; 1 John 3:1-3 )



3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it; yet being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of means, attain thereunto: and therefore it is the duty of every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; -so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
( Isaiah 50:10; Psalms 88; Psalms 77:1-12; 1 John 4:13; Hebrews 6:11, 12; Romans 5:1, 2, 5; Romans 14:17; Psalms 119:32; Romans 6:1,2; Titus 2:11, 12, 14 )



4. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light, yet are they never destitute of the seed of God and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the meantime, they are preserved from utter despair.
( Song of Solomon 5:2, 3, 6; Psalms 51:8, 12, 14; Psalms 116:11; Psalms 77:7, 8; Psalms 31:22; Psalms 30:7; 1 John 3:9; Luke 22:32; Psalms 42:5, 11; Lamentations 3:26-31 )

A big long rant.
Unless I missed them, I didn't see John 17:3, Titus 1:2, or 1 John 5:9-13. Or Hebrews 10:17. [1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 John 2:2]

 

[Piper]

"redemption"

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Judas wasn't saved and he was included in that "you." You are not hearing.

So I'll ask again: what are you trying to say?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

A big long rant.
Unless I missed them, I didn't see John 17:3, Titus 1:2, or 1 John 5:9-13. Or Hebrews 10:17. [1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 John 2:2]

What is your definition of a 'rant'? Not to mention 'big' and 'long'? I thought it was quite concise.
There were 25 Bible references in it. I'm sorry you don't get the exact ones you wanted.
What exactly is it that you want to know about John 17:3, and how does a general redemption resolve the problem?
Then we can look at the other texts that bother you.

 

[37818]

So I'll ask again: what are you trying to say?

Not trying. It is explicit Jesus said, ". . . This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. . . ." to all 12 of His disciples. Judas was not a believer being included. This can be understood to explicitly show the general redemption.

 

[37818]

What is your definition of a 'rant'? Not to mention 'big' and 'long'? I thought it was quite concise.
There were 25 Bible references in it. I'm sorry you don't get the exact ones you wanted.
What exactly is it that you want to know about John 17:3, and how does a general redemption resolve the problem?
Then we can look at the other texts that bother you.

A 'rant' in that case a lot of words. John 17:3 is not a problem. Only those who come to know God through whom He sent have received the gift of eternal life. The general redemption was the means Christ was given give His soul for His. Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 53:12, 1 Timothy 2:3-6. 1 John 5:9-13.

 

[AustinC]

Judas wasn't saved and he was included in that "you." You are not hearing.

You are forcing Judas into the "you" with no actual support regarding salvation.
Second, the Lord's Supper didn't save anyone.
I'm unsure why you are staking your entire theory of atonement upon such a shaky foundation.

 

[37818]

You are forcing Judas into the "you" with no actual support regarding salvation.

Apples and oranges. So you are forcing what I never proposed. Fact, Judas was one of the 12. And fact, Judas was lost.

 

[Dave G]

How can a yet lost person, come to know Christ had paid for one's sins, if the general redemption cannot be true?

" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God."

There is nothing in Romans 10 that without any concept Christ paying for the sins of the reader supposing a general redemption to include the reader. Otherwise offers no basis to believe.

The basis for someone coming to know Christ and believing on Him is whether or not they are "of" God....
God's elect.

Also, Paul, for example, never told anyone that Christ died for their sins until after they had already believed.

Please see the epistles to the churches for what the apostles told those who had believed, how and why they believed...and how the Lord who saved them commands them to conduct themselves in the light of all He has done for them.

My friend,
The word of God was not written to, and preserved for, those who will never believe it...
It was written to, and preserved for, those who would and do ( Romans 15:4 ).


May God bless you sir.

 

[37818]

" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God."
The basis for someone coming to know Christ and believing on Him is whether or not they are "of" God....
God's elect.

Also, Paul, for example, never told anyone that Christ died for their sins until after they had already believed.

Please see the epistles to the churches for what the apostles told those who had believed, how and why they believed...and how the Lord who saved them commands them to conduct themselves in the light of all He has done for them.

My friend,
The word of God was not written to, and preserved for, those who will never believe it...
It was written to, and preserved for, those who would and do ( Romans 15:4 ).


May God bless you sir.

The word of God is written for His believers and men might believe. My argument is without an understanding God's word teaches the general redemption there is no way the yet not saved to know Christ paid for one's sins. John 10:26-30 goes with John 8:47.