Without the general redemptton being true.

[Silverhair]

" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God."
The basis for someone coming to know Christ and believing on Him is whether or not they are "of" God....
God's elect.

Also, Paul, for example, never told anyone that Christ died for their sins until after they had already believed.

Please see the epistles to the churches for what the apostles told those who had believed, how and why they believed...and how the Lord who saved them commands them to conduct themselves in the light of all He has done for them.

My friend,
The word of God was not written to, and preserved for, those who will never believe it...
It was written to, and preserved for, those who would and do ( Romans 15:4 ).


May God bless you sir.

What does the bible tells us about who Christ died for?
1Ti_2:5-6 who gave Himself a ransom for all
Heb_2:9 might taste death for everyone
Joh_3:15 whoever believes in Him
Joh_3:17 the world
1Jn_2:2 sins of the whole world
Rom_5:6 Christ died for the ungodly
2Pe_2:1 false teachers
Eph_5:25 the Church
Gal_2:20 gave Himself for me. {Paul / me}

1Ti_4:10 Savior of all men, especially of those who believe
Note the two groups mentioned here "all men" which would include the non believers and the ones that latter actually did believe. So even though Paul my not have told anyone that Christ died for them the bible makes it clear that Christ died for all men so that all men could be saved through faith in Him.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Not trying. It is explicit Jesus said, ". . . This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. . . ." to all 12 of His disciples. Judas was not a believer being included. This can be understood to explicitly show the general redemption.

The Lord Jesus laid down His life for the sheep (John 10:11). Unless you regard Judas as being one of our Lord's sheep, we have a problem. Matthew and Mark's gospels depict our Lord's identification of Judas as betrayer before the institution of the Supper (Matthew 26:21-25; Mark 14:18-21). In John's Gospel, Judas leaves immediately after his identification (John 13:18-30). Also, Matthew and Mark speak of Christ's blood being poured out for many, not all. I am therefore inclined to think that Luke's account, while accurate as to events, is not strictly following the order in which they happened. Our Lord's blood was poured out for all His true disciples - His Church (Acts of the Apostles 20:28).

But even if you don't accept this, I still don't understand why a general 'redemption' can give one more assurance than a particular redemption. There really is no advantage in believing that Christ died in my stead if He died for Judas and the entire population of hell.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

A 'rant' in that case a lot of words.

A rant does not mean a lot of words as you know very well.

John 17:3 is not a problem.

Not for me either. Why did you mention it?

Only those who come to know God through whom He sent have received the gift of eternal life.

In that case they are not redeemed.

The general redemption was the means Christ was given give His soul for His.

I don't understand this. Please translate.

Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 53:12

Both refer to 'we' and 'our' i.e. particular people.
1 Timothy 2:3-6. [/QUOTE] Does not refer to a general 'redemption.'

1 John 5:9-13.

Nor does this. No one denies that everyone who believes has eternal life.

But again, none of this explains why people who believe in a general 'redemption' have an assurance of faith that others don't.

 

[37818]

The Lord Jesus laid down His life for the sheep (John 10:11). Unless you regard Judas as being one of our Lord's sheep, we have a problem.

No. There is no problem. The fact that Judas is included in Jesus' blood shed for the New Covenant simply does not make Jesus' statement, " I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep," not true.

 

[37818]

A rant does not mean a lot of words as you know very well.

It does not explicitly answer my objection.

Why did you mention it?

Knowing God is essential to one having eternal life.

Please translate.

The general redemption is how Jesus gave His soul for His sheep.

Both refer to 'we' and 'our' i.e. particular people.
1 Timothy 2:3-6. Does not refer to a general 'redemption.'

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
The word "our," does not disallow the general redemption.
Isaiah 53:6 'we' does not disallow the general redemption.
1 John 5:9-13, having God's witness and having God's Son having eternal life and knowing it. If there is no general redemption no one knows it.
Now it is my personal understanding that the general redemption is an essential to the genuine Christian faith.
It is not a secondary issue.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
I do not deny the particular redemption as being fundamentally true.

 

[AustinC]

No. There is no problem. The fact that Judas is included in Jesus' blood shed for the New Covenant simply does not make Jesus' statement, " I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep," not true.

Many people receive communion who are hellbound. You are forcing the text.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No. There is no problem. The fact that Judas is included in Jesus' blood shed for the New Covenant simply does not make Jesus' statement, " I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep," not true.

OK. So Judas is one of Christ's sheep. He heard the Shepherd's voice and followed Him; Christ has given him eternal life and no one will ever pluck him out of the Father's hand. Got it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Now it is my personal understanding that the general redemption is an essential to the genuine Christian faith.
It is not a secondary issue.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
I do not deny the particular redemption as being fundamentally true.

That is interesting. For my part I regard the general 'redemption' as being an incorrect understanding of Scripture, but I do not regard it as a primary issue or essential to the genuine Christian faith.

Anyway, I think we've taken our discussion as far as we're going to get, so thanks, and we'll leave it there.

 

[37818]

Many people receive communion who are hellbound. You are forcing the text.

You know nothing of me forcing any text.

 

[37818]

So Judas is one of Christ's sheep.

No. That is an irrational conclusion.

 

[AustinC]

You know nothing of me forcing any text.

I am watching you force the text upon Judas as you demand he received the Lord's Supper and thus declare General Atonement to be true. It is a huge leap in the dark and you are using it as your best argument for general atonement. Your argument, in that passage, is empty of any substance.

 

[AustinC]

No. That is an irrational conclusion.

Do you see your contradictions yet?

 

[37818]

I am watching you force the text upon Judas as you demand he received the Lord's Supper and thus declare General Atonement to be true. It is a huge leap in the dark and you are using it as your best argument for general atonement. Your argument, in that passage, is empty of any substance.

So then you are denying Jesus' words "This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you," to His partaking disciples. And you deny what it actually means.

 

[37818]

Do you see your contradictions yet?

You know nothiog of the sort.

 

[AustinC]

You know nothiog of the sort.

So you think, but I have shown you the contradictions and you refuse to even consider them. So be it.

 

[AustinC]

So then you are denying Jesus' words "This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you," to His partaking disciples. And you deny what it actually means.

I am not denying it. I am saying the "you" is for "you who believe."
You declare that Judas was not saved and was not a believer. You are correct. Therefore, Jesus was not referring to Judas when he said "you," even if Judas actually ate the seder meal with Jesus (which his participation is in debate). Martin has rightly pointed out that many people receive communion who are not saved. Participation in the supper does not mean the person is saved.

But, you are forcing Judas to be in the "you" as a believer, yet at the same time saying he wasn't a believer. Do you see your contradiction?

 

[37818]

So you think, but I have shown you the contradictions and you refuse to even consider them. So be it.

Again where? What post?

 

[37818]

I am not denying it. I am saying the "you" is for "you who believe."

Jesus said "you."

 

[Silverhair]

The Lord Jesus laid down His life for the sheep (John 10:11). Unless you regard Judas as being one of our Lord's sheep, we have a problem. Matthew and Mark's gospels depict our Lord's identification of Judas as betrayer before the institution of the Supper (Matthew 26:21-25; Mark 14:18-21). In John's Gospel, Judas leaves immediately after his identification (John 13:18-30). Also, Matthew and Mark speak of Christ's blood being poured out for many, not all. I am therefore inclined to think that Luke's account, while accurate as to events, is not strictly following the order in which they happened. Our Lord's blood was poured out for all His true disciples - His Church (Acts of the Apostles 20:28).

But even if you don't accept this, I still don't understand why a general 'redemption' can give one more assurance than a particular redemption. There really is no advantage in believing that Christ died in my stead if He died for Judas and the entire population of hell.

The fact that Judas was part of humanity and since Christ died for the sake of humanity that they might be saved we can conclude that He did die for Judas.

What does the bible tells us about who Christ died for?
1Ti_2:5-6 who gave Himself a ransom for all
Heb_2:9 might taste death for everyone
Joh_3:15 whoever believes in Him
Joh_3:17 the world
1Jn_2:2 sins of the whole world
Rom_5:6 Christ died for the ungodly
2Pe_2:1 false teachers
Eph_5:25 the Church
Gal_2:20 gave Himself for me. {Paul / me}

1Ti_4:10 Savior of all men, especially of those who believe
Note the two groups mentioned here "all men" which would include the non believers and the ones that latter actually did believe. The bible is clear in this regard so why do so many deny it.

A general redemption gives more assurance as it is for everyone not just a select group. One has to hope they are in the select group whereas one can know they are part of the general group. Plus since the bible points to a general redemption that would seem to be what one would trust in. That is if you trust the bible.

 

[AustinC]

Jesus said "you."

He did.
Is Judas saved?
You said no.
Therefore Jesus was not including Judas and was only referring to those who believe.
It is no different than a paster speaking to the audience and saying "you" but the only ones that it means is you believers. Those who participate in communion that are not believers are also not a part of the body of Christ.
Now, either Judas was saved and he is included in the "you" or he was not saved and the "you" does not include Judas. The idea that Judas is included, but not saved, is a contradiction. You, however, will not acknowledge your contradiction.