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Woman as an ordained minister
- Thread starter SaggyWoman
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I'm standing my ground on this one. Women have no place in Scripture as qualified to fulfill the office of pastor. They may (IMO) fulfill the function of a pastor when qualified men are not available or will not do their duty. But it must be temporary.
The Scripture is clear, women cannot usurp the authority of qualified men.
On rare occassions under the law this was allowed (Huldah and Deborah) but only when the men were unwilling to exercise their duty.
I suppose one could say that if the local church allows it then it's ok.
Look at it this way, women have their primary ministry with children. Women (single or married, with or without children of their own)
have a God given intuition with/about children, therefore He has entrusted their tender hearts to women.
How important is that?
HankD
The Scripture is clear, women cannot usurp the authority of qualified men.
On rare occassions under the law this was allowed (Huldah and Deborah) but only when the men were unwilling to exercise their duty.
I suppose one could say that if the local church allows it then it's ok.
Look at it this way, women have their primary ministry with children. Women (single or married, with or without children of their own)
have a God given intuition with/about children, therefore He has entrusted their tender hearts to women.
How important is that?
Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
HankD
Hi THEOLDMAN,
It is of no importance because it is impossible for any human being to put a restriction on the Holy Spirit.
HankD
I received this devotional today and thought it might be useful.
"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. (Colossians 2:8)
There is a subtle temptation that encourages Christians to be “practical.” That is, they try to do God’s work in man’s way. “Getting results” becomes the primary focus. It almost seems that we believe that the end justifies the means. Don’t be led away by the world’s reasoning. An examination of God’s Word shows that the means are sometimes even more important than the results. The world tries to convince you that as long as you can accomplish something for the kingdom of God, that’s all that matters. For example, Ananias and Sapphira gave an offering to their church, which was a good thing, but they did it deceitfully. God judged them immediately, not for what they did, but for how they did it.
Satan tried to trap Jesus with this same temptation. Satan did not question the worthiness of Jesus’ task, but simply offered “practical” solutions to accomplish Jesus’ goal more quickly and at lesser cost.
God’s ways are not like man’s ways. “Efficiency” from man’s perspective is not prized by God. It did not seem efficient to have the children of Israel march around Jericho thirteen times and then blow their trumpets, but it brought the walls down. It did not appear wise to select the youngest of Jesse’s sons to become the next king, but God saw a man after His own heart. At first glance, it does not seem logical for Jesus to have picked the twelve disciples He did, yet through them God dramatically affected their world.
It is never wise to attempt to do God’s work in man’s way. It is an age-old temptation that seems to make sense on the surface but often is at variance with the purposes of God."
Whether you think...a woman should be a Pastor of a church is vanity. What does His Word say about it? You can't discount away the written Word.
"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. (Colossians 2:8)
There is a subtle temptation that encourages Christians to be “practical.” That is, they try to do God’s work in man’s way. “Getting results” becomes the primary focus. It almost seems that we believe that the end justifies the means. Don’t be led away by the world’s reasoning. An examination of God’s Word shows that the means are sometimes even more important than the results. The world tries to convince you that as long as you can accomplish something for the kingdom of God, that’s all that matters. For example, Ananias and Sapphira gave an offering to their church, which was a good thing, but they did it deceitfully. God judged them immediately, not for what they did, but for how they did it.
Satan tried to trap Jesus with this same temptation. Satan did not question the worthiness of Jesus’ task, but simply offered “practical” solutions to accomplish Jesus’ goal more quickly and at lesser cost.
God’s ways are not like man’s ways. “Efficiency” from man’s perspective is not prized by God. It did not seem efficient to have the children of Israel march around Jericho thirteen times and then blow their trumpets, but it brought the walls down. It did not appear wise to select the youngest of Jesse’s sons to become the next king, but God saw a man after His own heart. At first glance, it does not seem logical for Jesus to have picked the twelve disciples He did, yet through them God dramatically affected their world.
It is never wise to attempt to do God’s work in man’s way. It is an age-old temptation that seems to make sense on the surface but often is at variance with the purposes of God."
Whether you think...a woman should be a Pastor of a church is vanity. What does His Word say about it? You can't discount away the written Word.
He put no restrictions on the Holy Ghost. Instead he pointed to where the Holy Ghost HIMSELF told us the qualifications of a bishop/elder and what the roles of men and women are in the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. God doesn't change. The Holy Ghost, just as much God as the Father and the Word, told us these things in the first century A.D. and they still apply the same today. To go against scripture here is to go against the clear teachings of the Holy Ghost, so then you cannot turn back around say we're restricting Him. We're following His teachings. You are rebelling against His teachings.
God made men and women differently and He did so for a reason. Men have certain duties, women have others, and when they are properly followed things work incredibly well. God knew what He was doing.
See, we've just found the crux of the issue. You don't believe that what Paul wrote was Holy Spirit inspired. If you did you wouldn't be asking this silly question.
Exactly. What Paul wrote = what Holy Ghost said. Anyone that fights Paul is fighting against the God of heaven.
Furthermore, Paul didn't write that to just one church. He wrote to Timothy, an elder/bishop, that women weren't to teach in church or to usurp authority over a man. Paul told this same Timothy that elders and deacons were to be men. Paul told the Corinthians much the same thing, saying it is not permitted to them to speak (speaking here in the context meaning teaching). He told Titus, as he had Timothy, that men were to be bishops/elders. This is incredibly important that he know this because Paul left him in Crete to ordain elders in every city.
What authority does anyone today have to throw off these instructions? None.
And one more thing: the Holy Ghost can do whatever He wants to, but God doesn't contradict Himself. God could have destroyed the nation of Judah as He had the northern kingdom of Israel and brought forth Messiah from a different line, but He would have broken so many promises and contradicted so many scriptures. That is not how God operates.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
God says no.
Yep - and the Holy Spirit will not contradict His Word.
Oh - and the Holy Spirit is "He", not an "it".
Yes, annsi, I know they are worthy of double honor (which doesn't necessarily mean money), and I do delight in making sure my pastor is well compensated.
I was just saying that in my often not as humble as it should be opinion, while we have some excellent full time pastors today, we also have some just looking for a nice indoor job with good pay and benefits. I believe THOSE gentlemen would be weeded out in a hurry if all the jobs were bivo.
In the same way, while most of us here believe the SCRIPTURE forbids the ordination of women, there are some out there fighting it just because ordaining women would mean more people they must compete with to get a job as a pastor.
And honestly, I believe what we do today as "ordination" is nothing at all what the Bible is talking about when it comes to leaders. I believe we train and ordain and then expect them to go lead. I believe the Bible teaches us to recognize those God is using to lead. Whoever that might be.
And women cannot "usurp" or wrest away authority from men if men comprise part of the congregation that decides to give her authority. I am not kjvo at all, but I do believe that is a better translation than the new ones saying she cannot "be in authority over a man."
My husband is head of this home. But he delegates the authority to decide what is for supper without asking him to me. I do not usurp or wrest it away, but he HAS put me in authority about it.
So IF a church sees God clearly using a woman to lead or be in authority, that church does not sin if it recognizes that fact. On the other hand, if a woman comes in to a church and tries to take over the men's roles and dominate them, she sins.
Again, in my usually less than humble but I'm working on it opinion.
I was just saying that in my often not as humble as it should be opinion, while we have some excellent full time pastors today, we also have some just looking for a nice indoor job with good pay and benefits. I believe THOSE gentlemen would be weeded out in a hurry if all the jobs were bivo.
In the same way, while most of us here believe the SCRIPTURE forbids the ordination of women, there are some out there fighting it just because ordaining women would mean more people they must compete with to get a job as a pastor.
And honestly, I believe what we do today as "ordination" is nothing at all what the Bible is talking about when it comes to leaders. I believe we train and ordain and then expect them to go lead. I believe the Bible teaches us to recognize those God is using to lead. Whoever that might be.
And women cannot "usurp" or wrest away authority from men if men comprise part of the congregation that decides to give her authority. I am not kjvo at all, but I do believe that is a better translation than the new ones saying she cannot "be in authority over a man."
My husband is head of this home. But he delegates the authority to decide what is for supper without asking him to me. I do not usurp or wrest it away, but he HAS put me in authority about it.
So IF a church sees God clearly using a woman to lead or be in authority, that church does not sin if it recognizes that fact. On the other hand, if a woman comes in to a church and tries to take over the men's roles and dominate them, she sins.
Again, in my usually less than humble but I'm working on it opinion.
Goodness, if someone goes into the ministry for the money, they are nuts. My husband went into the ministry and his salary was cut in more than 1/2. We no longer have "extra" money and are going into debt with college expenses, even though our daughter has excellent financial aid. It's just the $10,000 the government feels we can pay is not there. Thank God we have a home and equity but those pastors who have lived in parsonages all their lives find themselves in their 60s and 70s with no ability to buy a home for themselves. I don't see how ANY pastor, save those who have become well known (and that's very few) can make anything but an adequate living.
Just because some men are ordained who should never have been ordained is not reason to start ordaining women. Preaching is not something to "compete" over, instead we should recognize that Christ is Head of the church. Too many people today think of preaching like a secular job. It is not.
Hi again THEOLDMAN,
You are correct the Holy Spirit does as He pleases and can call anyone to any office He desires.
He can but does He?
The Holy Spirit is also the person of the Trinity that moved the Apostles and God-breathed the written Scriptures through them which (as many have declared) show no authority for a woman to hold the office of "pastor".
In fact, just the opposite, they are to be silent in the churches and cannot/should not usurp the authority of men who have been chosen to lead the local church.
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
As far as we know, He has not "changed His mind".
If someone gets "a word from the Lord" that He has, well, most or all of us here at the BB believe that the Scripture is the completed revelation for the church, so we would disagree on that point as well (not that I am saying you have received said word).
So, it's not that He can't, but that He won't as He has already revealed His will concerning this matter. No one is limiting the Holy Spirit by insisting that He means what He says.
If we use this logic that God makes different requirements when He chooses (which right He has - e.g. the Law of Moses vs the Liberty of Grace through Jesus Christ) without telling us first then this would cause lots of confusion and God is not the author of confusion.
HankD
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RAdam--you said it well.
I wasn't arguing FOR women's ordination, although I do understand Biblically where those denoms that do it MAY get their ideas. They may or may not be right (in their interpretation of the Bible) but as long as they are genuinely seeking God's will I seriously doubt they are sinning if they misunderstand that will.
I do believe there is a big difference in usurping authority and being assigned a job carrying authority. Known some men who would also usurp authority not given them by God.
I was saying that not everyone "gets" it that ordination by man is nothing, meaningless. It is who GOD calls to lead, empowers to lead, and uses to lead that counts. I've known men never called to be "ordained" and who never served as official "pastor" who were clearly the leader in their church.
Annsi--yes, I know most pastors make a "normal" living. Some make even less than that. But I've sat on too many personnel committees, and pastor search committees to be naive. Too often a man would approach us with "doctors in this town earn xyz, lawyers earn xyz, and since I am as educated and am also a professional I should be paid at that level." In all honesty we let those resumes go in file 13. Now, let a man approach us seeking whether or not God wanted him to serve in that church FIRST, and then talk money, and if we could afford it he might get more than the other guy sought. But there are a few that I have personally known that sat at my kitchen table and talked of going back to school to be a preacher BECAUSE it beat working in the oil field, or in one case, as a jail attendent.
I would have had a lot more respect for them, even cheered them on and sought to help them get through their schooling, had they been willing to work for a living and preach on the side. If a man is willing to do that, I figure he shouldn't have to do it. Let's pay him enough not to have to. But if he isn't willing to preach, or do visitation, or teach, or what have you, unless he can make a career of it, he just might be a hireling.
I wasn't arguing FOR women's ordination, although I do understand Biblically where those denoms that do it MAY get their ideas. They may or may not be right (in their interpretation of the Bible) but as long as they are genuinely seeking God's will I seriously doubt they are sinning if they misunderstand that will.
I do believe there is a big difference in usurping authority and being assigned a job carrying authority. Known some men who would also usurp authority not given them by God.
I was saying that not everyone "gets" it that ordination by man is nothing, meaningless. It is who GOD calls to lead, empowers to lead, and uses to lead that counts. I've known men never called to be "ordained" and who never served as official "pastor" who were clearly the leader in their church.
Annsi--yes, I know most pastors make a "normal" living. Some make even less than that. But I've sat on too many personnel committees, and pastor search committees to be naive. Too often a man would approach us with "doctors in this town earn xyz, lawyers earn xyz, and since I am as educated and am also a professional I should be paid at that level." In all honesty we let those resumes go in file 13. Now, let a man approach us seeking whether or not God wanted him to serve in that church FIRST, and then talk money, and if we could afford it he might get more than the other guy sought. But there are a few that I have personally known that sat at my kitchen table and talked of going back to school to be a preacher BECAUSE it beat working in the oil field, or in one case, as a jail attendent.
I would have had a lot more respect for them, even cheered them on and sought to help them get through their schooling, had they been willing to work for a living and preach on the side. If a man is willing to do that, I figure he shouldn't have to do it. Let's pay him enough not to have to. But if he isn't willing to preach, or do visitation, or teach, or what have you, unless he can make a career of it, he just might be a hireling.
They are some things that are difficult to understand it the bible and there are some things that are simple, that are clearly expressed so that there is no misunderstanding. The fact that men and men only are to be in the office of elder/bishop is one of the simple things clearly expressed in scripture. If one cannot understand that I worry about their ability to comprehend the truly difficult sections of scripture. I doubt God turns a blind eye and say, "oh well, they are trying" when people reject the clear teaching against women being elders. I also cannot see how God would bless such a woman to teach when He clearly states that He doesn't call them to preach and doesn't want them preaching and teaching in His church.
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