Women are Not to Teach or Usurp Authority...

[Ben1445]

Out of context that passage is ridiculous.
Imagine Paul telling the men, "Don't ever learn anything from women, they can't be teachers."

Galatians 3:28 says that ...in Christ, "there is no male and female."

We see women in a variety of leadership roles in the NT:
Phoebe, who served as a deacon (Romans 16:1-2)
Priscilla and Aquila, Paul’s fellow workers (Romans 16:3)
Euodia and Syntyche labored with Paul (Philippians 4:2-3)
Priscilla instructed Apollos in the faith (Acts 18:26)

These examples suggest the prohibition against teaching wasn't absolute; the admonition might have been a solution to a local problem.

Probably not.... it's rather grey.

Rob

So when Paul wrote to Timothy about how to shave in the house of God, what was Paul talking about when he said that he doesn’t allow women to teach or usurp authority?
Paul must have been much less spiritual than you.
Help me understand.

 

[Ben1445]

If God called a woman to preach who are you to say she cannot.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

But who are we to judge, right?

 

[Armchair Apologist]

So when Paul wrote to Timothy about how to shave in the house of God, what was Paul talking about when he said that he doesn’t allow women to teach or usurp authority?
Paul must have been much less spiritual than you.
Help me understand.

I personally do not "shave" in the house of God myself. I usually do so at home but if I forget, I would just rock the "Don Johnson" look for the day!

 

[Ben1445]

I personally do not "shave" in the house of God myself. I usually do so at home but if I forget, I would just rock the "Don Johnson" look for the day!

I even fixed that word intentionally. I hate the autocorrect function. It decides what words it thinks belongs and changes random words throughout the sentence.
If you know how to turn that off or at least revert to the less active version of autocorrect, I would really appreciate tips.

Well, I meant behave, if anyone isn’t familiar with the passage of Scripture I am referring to.

 

[Ben1445]

So when Paul wrote to Timothy about how to shave in the house of God, what was Paul talking about when he said that he doesn’t allow women to teach or usurp authority?
Paul must have been much less spiritual than you.
Help me understand.

@Deacon, can you answer that question please with the word behave instead of shave?

 

[Silverhair]

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

But who are we to judge, right?

I did not say we should not judge them. If they do not preach the word of God then they should be judged. From what I read in the article she did preach the word of God.

 

[Silverhair]

Are you trying to say that this passage teaches egalitarianism? That women and men are equal one to another in every way?

If this is what you mean by egalitarianism then yes the bible does teach that.

The egalitarian view holds that God created men and women with equal status, worth, and authority, meaning all leadership roles in the church are open to women based on spiritual gifting rather than gender.

Where in the scriptures does it say that anyone is "called" to preach? In what context would God call someone and in which context would they fulfil this calling? Preaching does not necessarily mean standing behind a pulpit and raining fire on a congregation!

I agree that preaching does not necessarily require one to stand behind a pulpit. Have you not heard the term "called to preach.

"We are not 'called' to preach; we are COMMANDED to preach!" Let that one sink in for a while. We simply need to determine in what context that we are to carry out this command

We are called to various means of service and if that happens to be to preach they we can say they were called to preach.

I therefore believe that a woman may teach and preach without usurping authority over a man but such also means that she is not standing behind a pulpit expositing the scriptures over the main congregation!

Yes I know that is what you believe and I believe that if God has called a woman to preach in that capacity then that is where she should be.

As I said, none of these spiritual gifts specifically require one to enter the "Vocational Ministry" and pastor a church!

I agree and did not say they did.

I defy you to show me where the "Gift of Preaching" (specifically, holding the office of a Bishop) is found anywhere in the scriptures!

Did I say it was one of the listed gifts?

The Spiritual Gifts in Rom 12 and 1 Cor 12 are intentionally vague to cover a wide scope of areas in which one may be called and equipped for service.

So you agree that people are called to service, and that service can be to preach.

The only way to make the text say anything else is because one wants it to say something else and therein lies the problem.

You read the text so that it says one thing and I read it and it says another. We both say scripture backs up our position so we will just have to disagree.

 

[Deacon]

So when Paul wrote to Timothy about how to [behave] in the house of God, what was Paul talking about when he said that he doesn’t allow women to teach or usurp authority?
Paul must have been much less spiritual than you.
Help me understand.

Hey, I'm trying to figure this out as much as you are. No need to get snappy.
It's a tough passage.
I'm simply offering my thoughts and opinions.
~~~
1) Simply by observation "everyone teaches" - if not by word, by their actions... so, for me, the absolute prohibition for women to teach isn't possible.
2) The reference to Adam and Eve deals with authority, rather than to a greater tendency for women to be deceived (I don't observe deception as being a gender related trait).
3) The use of authenteō in 1 Timothy 2:12 refers to the manner in which a woman teaches — they are not to teach in a domineering manner.
4) A pastor/shepherd is a position of leadership requiring an authoritative dominance over his pastorate.
5) Therefore, women should not be placed in such a position to dominate over men.

~~~
When discussing this passage we are walking on ground that has been trod by very many learned commentators.
Two commentaries (among many) have been particularly helpful to me.

1) Douglas Mangum and E. Tod Twist's commentary on 1 Timothy (Logos Research Commentaries 2026) provides a wonderful review of myriads of views on the passage. They note:
Numerous articles and books, in addition to the usual commentaries on 1 Timothy, grapple with the issue of how 1 Tim 2:11–15 should be understood (the bibliography for the passage in Mounce’s commentary extends over eight pages). The general advice about modest behavior or appropriate dress for women in 1 Tim 2:9 is much easier to accept for women today than the restrictions on their teaching or having authority in the church from 1 Tim 2:12.
Mangum, Douglas, and E. Tod Twist. 2026. 1 Timothy. Edited by Douglas Mangum and Derek R. Brown. Logos Research Commentaries. Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

2) The second is Howard Marshall and Philip Towner's Commentary of the Pastoral Epistles (International Critical Commentary Series)
The scope of the word, "authority" is unclear. It's not a common word in Greek literature. ...
Although the parallelism is not exact, the relation between vv. 11 and 12 suggest that ‘learning’ and ‘teaching’ form the main point of contrast: learning can be done quietly and in full submission, but the teaching in which women were engaged was characterised by an overbearing attitude. In other words, the quiet demeanour and recognition of authority which are to characterise the learner are contrasted with teaching in a manner which is heavy-handed and abuses authority. αὐθεντεῖν as a reference to ‘authority’ (leadership) unrelated to teaching would exceed the scope of the discussion initiated at v. 11. It is, therefore, more likely that the verb characterises the nature of the teaching rather than the role of the women in church leadership in general
Marshall, I. Howard, and Philip H. Towner. 2004. A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Pastoral Epistles. International Critical Commentary. London; New York: T&T Clark International.

Rob

 

[Ben1445]

5) Therefore, women should not be placed in such a position to dominate over men.

i.e. not pastors.

 

[David Lamb]

i.e. not pastors.

Well, in a sense, pastors are not to dominate over the flock:

NKJV 1Pe 5:1 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly;
1Pe 5:3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;
1Pe 5:4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

 

[Ben1445]

Well, in a sense, pastors are not to dominate over the flock:

NKJV 1Pe 5:1 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly;
1Pe 5:3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;
1Pe 5:4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

No contest, but on the subject of teaching, 1 Timothy says that they should learn in silence. I think that Paul recognized that women have a tendency to talk more than men.
So if a woman pastor is silent she is not doing the job of the pastor and if she is speaking up in the church and preaching, she is not in line with Scripture.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

In the context Paul gives, there is no room for women preachers.

Does it happen? There are lots of things that happen in this world that God does not immediately stop. That doesn’t make those things right.

So, for a woman to take the position of authority as pastor is to take a position that necessitates dominating where she does not belong.
The job of the pastor is to lead, as with sheep. That is not how Paul describes the role of women in the church.

 

[David Lamb]

No contest, but on the subject of teaching, 1 Timothy says that they should learn in silence. I think that Paul recognized that women have a tendency to talk more than men.
So if a woman pastor is silent she is not doing the job of the pastor and if she is speaking up in the church and preaching, she is not in line with Scripture.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

In the context Paul gives, there is no room for women preachers.

Does it happen? There are lots of things that happen in this world that God does not immediately stop. That doesn’t make those things right.

So, for a woman to take the position of authority as pastor is to take a position that necessitates dominating where she does not belong.
The job of the pastor is to lead, as with sheep. That is not how Paul describes the role of women in the church.

Thanks. I agree. I hope you didn't think I was arguing in favour of women pastors!

 

[Deacon]

But where there are many sheep, there are many ewe's.

And they may desire a special tender leading.

Rob

 

[Ben1445]

Thanks. I agree. I hope you didn't think I was arguing in favour of women pastors!

No. I haven’t ignored the rest of the thread. It would be my own error if I thought that.

 

[Ben1445]

But where there are many sheep, there are many ewe's.

And they may desire a special tender leading.

Rob

Jesus is meek and lowly. Pastors can be also. Jesus didn’t become a woman to reach women.
All of the work God has given us to do may be done within the order that God established.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

But where there are many sheep, there are many ewes.

And they may desire a special tender leading.

Rob

I think Titus 2:1-10 is helpful here. '.....The older women likewise, that they be reverent in behaviour.... teachers of good things -- that they admonish the young women...... '
At a church leaders' conference that I attended a few years back, we were enouraged to look out "Titus 2 women" and to encourage them informally to admonish the younger women (not necessarily younger in years, but perhaps younger in the faith), being able to speak to them in ways that perhaps a male pastor, especially a young one, might find difficult.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

If this is what you mean by egalitarianism then yes the bible does teach that.

The egalitarian view holds that God created men and women with equal status, worth, and authority, meaning all leadership roles in the church are open to women based on spiritual gifting rather than gender.

1 Corinthians 11:3 - But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Look at this in context with the relationship between Christ and the Father. Jesus being subservient to the Father does not make him inferior does it? We do believe that the Father and the Son are co-equal and co-eternal.

Consider also the following: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it (Eph 5:25). Are we not as men called to be the provider and protector of women in our lives? The feminist movement is fighting for women to rise to become CEOs and high-level executives but why are they not fighting for women to dig ditches, run plumbing, and clean out septic tanks? Men take on such tasks so their wives and daughters DO NOT HAVE TO! It is usually the man who gets up in the middle of the night to examine a strange sound (possible break-in, etc.), and the man typically (ought to) walk on the traffic side of a sidewalk in order to protect his woman from any car that may jump the curb or whatever. Men go out to fight wars and find purpose in it knowing that it is those at home waiting for him that he is fighting for! I could go on and on here.

I agree that preaching does not necessarily require one to stand behind a pulpit. Have you not heard the term "called to preach.

I am a Baptist and have been hearing this throughout the 40+ years that I have been a Baptist. At one time I believed I was "Called to Preach" but perhaps this was also out of peer pressure as it seemed that all of my other buddies at the time were being "Called to Preach?" Over the years, I have grown rather contemptuous of this phrase as it was often presented to me that the "Call to vocational (full-time) ministry is the highest possible calling one could have" and I now see how such can be misleading and quite hurtful! It may very well be the highest possible calling for the individual that God has specifically called, equipped, gifted, and enabled but if God has called you to another vocation, this does not make you a 2nd tier Christian or someone who failed to achieve the standard or whatever! It simply means that your gifting and calling is elsewhere and what God has specifically called you to is, in fact, the highest possible calling one may aspire to!

What I tell young men these days is to go out and learn a trade, get some real experience in the world applying this trade, and strive to be the man that Paul describes in 1 Tim 3 and Tit 1! Such speaks of one who has a proven track record and not merely some wet behind the ears kid fresh out of Bible College with a newlywed wife who simply hasn't yet had opportunity to make mistakes and potentially screw up his life!

We are called to various means of service and if that happens to be to preach they we can say they were called to preach.

Yes I know that is what you believe and I believe that if God has called a woman to preach in that capacity then that is where she should be.

God will not call you to serve in a position which violates the very scriptures he has inspired.

You read the text so that it says one thing and I read it and it says another. We both say scripture backs up our position so we will just have to disagree.

Tell you what, show me one female preacher who is conservative and orthodox in her doctrine! Perhaps he is out there and if she is, I would say she is the exception to the rule. Most women preachers I see are quite heretical and often a member of the "alphabet" crowd! Not trying to be offensive here, just stating a fact. A woman who is faithful and obedient to God will follow him and obey his word!

I am open to the possibility of women teaching certain Seminary courses and I also believe that women chaplains are a valuable resource in a woman's prison. I'm sure there are many other opportunities for service that would not violate the scriptures.

 

[Silverhair]

Well, in a sense, pastors are not to dominate over the flock:

NKJV 1Pe 5:1 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly;
1Pe 5:3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;
1Pe 5:4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

Neither men nor women are to use their position to dominate the people they are over.

A quote from Deacons post #28

"but the teaching in which women were engaged was characterised by an overbearing attitude. In other words, the quiet demeanour and recognition of authority which are to characterise the learner are contrasted with teaching in a manner which is heavy-handed and abuses authority. αὐθεντεῖν as a reference to ‘authority’ (leadership) unrelated to teaching would exceed the scope of the discussion initiated at v. 11. It is, therefore, more likely that the verb characterises the nature of the teaching rather than the role of the women in church leadership in general" Marshall, I. Howard, and Philip H. Towner. 2004. A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Pastoral Epistles. International Critical Commentary. London; New York: T&T Clark International.

The restriction is not who can preach but rather their attitude when they do so.

 

[Silverhair]

1 Corinthians 11:3 - But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

I agree that the man is the head of the woman as scripture says, I am the head of my household, but to say that means that a woman cannot preach is not what we find in scripture. Women taught men and lead men. If Jesus saw fit to treat women as equals with men then why should we be any different?

"Call to vocational (full-time) ministry is the highest possible calling one could have"

Actually I do find that to be the highest calling one could have. But that is not to say that all are called to that position even though they may think they are. We are to judge them by their words and the fruit of their service.

God will not call you to serve in a position which violates the very scriptures he has inspired.

That is why I say He has not violated His scriptures. And from what I have shown in scripture He has not.

show me one female preacher who is conservative and orthodox in her doctrine!

The woman that the article was about. I do not run around judging preachers.

But the odd thing is when you do look at who leads the more liberal churches you do find a number of men doing so. And we no that a large number of churches that refuse to allow women to preach do misuse the word of God to support their particular view.

But as I said earlier we will just have to disagree on our views.