Women aren't second-class believers

[Eladar]

Yes.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Eladar:

It would make for better debate if you had studied the historical background so that you could interpret correctly and intelligently discuss a passage. Correct interpretation requires a thorough understanding of the historical background first.

Yes, this is the general approach liberals take. The Bible doesn't really say what it appears to say.


And every conservative and fundamentalist as well.

If you would make such an outrageous claim then how might you interpret the following excerpts from three passages.

Matthew 8:28, "When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way."

Mark 5:2, "When He got out of the boat, immediately a man from the tombs with an unclean spirit met Him,"

and Luke 8:27, "And when He came out onto the land, He was met by a man from the city who was possessed with demons; and who had not put on any clothing for a long time, and was not living in a house, but in the tombs."

I is quite obvious you have not studied English literature nor taken any courses on interpretation of literature and documents. Because if you had you would have not made such remarks as you have about the historical background which is its context. Ever heard the saying context is everything? Every amount of posting you do is within a context. Your words only have meaning within a given context. To lift the words out of context is to give it a different meaning.Which is what you have done to what I have posted and others as well.

 

[Abiyah]

Well, your answers were good, but they never
would have worked in either of these very real
cases. Both husbands tried some of your ideas,
and tried some additional ones.

The husband of #1 was a pastor, and wife #1 a
professing witch who was active in church. All
their children left home as soon as they were
able, and they often completely lost contact with
three of them. All, ages mid-fifties through their
late 60s, struggle with various problems, from
extreme perfectionism to very real psychological
problems. The children had very real relationship
problems through their lives. The parents stayed
married, but lived quite lonely lives, because the
children had a difficult time being with them, and
all moved far from them.

The husband of #2 left her several times but
always came back. There was no money for
him to eat out, even at Burger King. One son was
permanently blinded because of neglect.

Things are not as cut-and-dried as you assume.
When the children are sacrificed for such ideals,
rather than protected, that never pleases our God.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Eladar:
Are they being taken out of the house by force?

Yes, by the authorities.

Who initiated this force?

The Husband initiated the force by striking his spouse.

Too bad that this really don't apply. It has to do with how we live our lives, not what others do to us.

The verse on the body being the temple of the Holy Spirit is INDEED relevant. Respecting your body means not allowing anyone to abuse it, be they your spouse, or a stranger.

 

[Ben W]

I have just read through some of the pages here, and I cannot believe that there are actually people defending those that Abuse their wives?

If that is the attitude or way that "Fundamentalism" is viewed, put me in the Liberal camp.

Another point is that the Old Testament talks about An Eye for an Eye, How many of these cowards would abuse their wives if part of the punishment was that a stronger man was permitted to beat them in the same manner?

If people are defending abusers within the church, then I think that we should be getting advertisments for the Samaritans telephone counselling and similar groups on church notice boards to help those escape the Abuse they are being made to suffer.

Using the Bible to justify that is absolutley sickening.

 

[Abiyah]

Amein! I know this: my husband might get by with
hitting me -- once.

 

[Eladar]

I have just read through some of the pages here, and I cannot believe that there are actually people defending those that Abuse their wives?

You may see this as defending abusers, but it is not.

 

[Abiyah]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
Amein! I know this: my husband might get by with
hitting me -- once.

After writing this, I thought about all the women
who feel trapped in such marriages. Economic
problems, responsibilities toward and for children,
and a lack of confidence because of the abusers'
emotional abuse will make a woman feel like she
is trapped.

I take food and items down to one of the local
shelters for abused women and their children, and
while the stories are different for each one, there
are basically about five stories total for all women
there. It is the same ol' same ol'. For the abused
woman, she married a man who was weak and
powerless, who took it out on her, belittling her,
entrapping her, using her, standing upon her,
because he could see no other way to rise higher.

I am glad that shelters for abused women and men
are listed in the yellow pages under Child Abuse
Services, Women's Organizations, Crisis Inter-
vention, or Domestic Violence Information. They
may also contact local churches (some will help
or advise) and the Y(M or W)CA.

One number for children to call is 1.800.4.A.CHILD.
Two other numbers, which are good for the whole
U.S.A., as far as I know, are 1.866.341.7009 and
1.866.653.2522. These are good for women,
children, and men.

No one, woman, child, or man, has to stay in an
abusive situation. There are people who can and
will help.

For men who are in abusive relationships, I know
that this is very embarrassing, shameful, and
absolutely unfathomable, but they need to get out,
too. Some day, she is going to come at him, he
is going to try to defend himself, and she will get
by with blaming him, simply because she is
female. They need to get help, to have a public
record established, in order to prove it was the
woman.

All persons in abusive situations need to keep a
secret diary with dates and details, along with
photos of injuries. They need an advocate, too --
a trusted friend or neighbor -- to help and to
witness visible injuries as well as the history of
the abuse.

P.S. By the way, observers of continued abuse
should also document what they see and hear, but
never what they suspect -- specifics, along with
dates and times.

[ October 31, 2003, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

[Eladar]

Well, your answers were good, but they never
would have worked in either of these very real
cases. Both husbands tried some of your ideas,
and tried some additional ones.

One thing I did not mention is that I would make an effort to spend time with my kids knowing that I was fighting this battle alone. If there was extended family around that wasn't as screwed up as the wife, perhaps they could help too.

In any case, children are God's not ours. Some are going to heaven and others are not. We shouldn't be arrogant enough to believe that our children must be going to heaven, just as we must not be arrogant enough to believe we must be going to heaven. God has a purpose for every life. Everyone has a part to play. Everything is for the greater glory of God.

 

[Eladar]

I take food and items down to one of the local
shelters for abused women and their children, and
while the stories are different for each one, there
are basically about five stories total for all women
there. It is the same ol' same ol'. For the abused
woman, she married a man who was weak and
powerless, who took it out on her, belittling her,
entrapping her, using her, standing upon her,
because he could see no other way to rise higher.

There are dynamics at play here. Everyone plays a part. If you get the picture from one side, you are getting a very distorted view. The family is a system and each member adds to and is affected by what other members do.

You can play the blame game if you like. It just isn't entirely accurate in many of the situations out there.

Water seeks its own level.

 

[Thankful]

I have stayed out of this discussion because I cannot follow the logic that a person should stay in an abusive situation and that God wants us to stay in an abusive situation, but I must comment on the following quote.

just as we must not be arrogant enough to believe we must be going to heaven. God has a purpose for every life. Everyone has a part to play. Everything is for the greater glory of God.

I can agree with the last three sentences, but the "just as we must not be arrogant enough to believe we must be going to heaven, I cannot agree with that.

Arrogant I think not. We are humble enough to believe that we are going to heaven. Jesus died for our sins, He was resurrected and He went to prepare a place for us. We must believe and through His grace, we are saved.

It is as simple as John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God."

 

[Eladar]

Notice the 'must' in there. We can have confidence, but we can't say we have a perfect view of reality.

 

[Elk]

Dear Eladar,
I want to say that I do agree with what the Bible says about divorce, and it can be a hard road for many people to be in a horrible marriage.
But please don't forget that although none of here and no Christian ever approves of divorce, and we definitely know that it will not solve problems.
In fact many people know people who have remarried a bunch of times, and realized that they married pretty much the same type of people, except their name has changed. And I guess I could give many examples of how sad and unresolved "remarriage" can be for so many people.
I believe the issue here is about remarriage... for Jesus said that about committing adultery.

But when everything is said and done and one looks at the Bible as a whole, we do have grace and mercy, and we are living in a New Covenant.
Please don't forget the grace factor.

Consider the rich young man who went to Jesus and asked what he needed to do to be saved.
Then after that discussion, Jesus said to sell all that he had and come follow HIM. The rich man walked away because he couldn't leave his riches behind, and then they were astonished and asked Jesus, then who can be saved?

Consider what Jesus said. By God all things are possible.
Can we save ourselves? Only Jesus saves.

Really, in matters of divorce, theft, murder, lying, etc. etc., what difference does it make if we sin. Sin is sin. Do you think that one is trapped in marriage even if one is trying to kill the other? If the person allows it and gets murdered, won't even more sin be on another's head?

I know the Bible says that we are sheep for the slaughter, but we don't have to help people to live in their sin of violence. What purpose does it serve?

What does Jesus say to those persecuted?
To flee into another city, yes?

Or what about this...

He who loves much is forgiven much.
He who loves little is forgiven little.

Really, are not people who get mixed up in bad marriages, drugs, drinking, and such, are they not often the people who love much?
Think about it.

Don't sometimes people who love little, risk little?

I hope you are not interpretating that to mean that that is true overall, no, just that I know of many examples of much compassion of people, basically people throwing their pearls before swine in love and paying for it dearly.

Is there no pardon or forgiveness for love?

How many times have you given to a poor person at church and find out that they lied big time? Are you going to keep giving to them, especially when they are not repentive?

What about Jeremiah? God told him that all those who flee into Egypt will die. But Jeremiah prayed for them and went with them into Egypt, knowing full well that he would die.
He didn't have to do what he did, but he loved his people. Now, God made a rule here, but Jeremiah loved his people so much.
So, was God mad at him for disobeying? Hardly.
Jeremiah was a true servant of God because he loved God and loved his people. But to the world he looked like a complete failure, yes?

I hope you know that no Christian applauds divorce or anything that God said not to do.
These are all very serious matters.

But we must never forget that there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus.
And what does that mean? That we have His Holy Spirit and are following Him, yes?

Well, what is the whole Bible about? Listening to and obeying God's Voice yes?
If the Lord tells one to flee, or to stay, we should obey His Voice.
But if we make a mistake, I believe the Lord will forgive us.

 

[Abiyah]

One of the (many) things that has bothered me
throughout this discourse is this: I brought up the
matter of divorce, because as a child, I thought it a
great idea. Note: I said "as a child." I could easily
be wrong, but I do not think anyone else condoned
divorce, although Eladar took it as though we all
did -- just another twist of our words, another
accusation, another false platform to jump upon
in order to continue the vitriolics. And this, in
itself, has been amazing throughout this thread. I
have never known anyone else so able and willing
to twist our words. An amazing feat.

Elnora came here asking some real questions,
seeking real help for someone. What has ensued
here, by one, has concerned me for her. However,
Elnora is certainly not stupid -- far from it. She
can figure this out.

 

[Eladar]

Note: I said "as a child." I could easily
be wrong, but I do not think anyone else condoned
divorce, although Eladar took it as though we all
did -- just another twist of our words, another
accusation, another false platform to jump upon
in order to continue the vitriolics.

You must have missed this post by Elk:

Now, I did not say anything about divorce, but you did. But since you brought up the topic, if the marriage we have on this earth is to be a type of parallel to Christ and the Body (The Bridegroom and the Bride), it is all about being faithful. So, please look into what faithful means.
In Jeremiah 3:8, God divorced His people for not being faithful, justly deserved as His people worshipped other gods and idols.
And what does this mean, idols? It is all about "self" and making up gods that please us. In the Old Testament there were gods that filled their own self interest, even temple sex, murder of children, etc. etc. It is no secret how a society can put their children on the flames of Chemosh because of their own selfish desires. In our society people do it all the time by getting abortions. It is the same. It is the idolatry of self.
And an abuser is heavy into idolatry of self.
The abuser is not faithful whatsoever, and to me that constitues unfaithfulness although the abuser does not necessarily need another mate to do an act of unfaithfulness.

Consider what faithful means.
Judas betrayed Jesus. But was he forgiven in the light of the Body of Christ?
Nope.

Jesus is ever faithful and fully demonstrates that He is the Bridegroom Who is ever Faithful. But I tell you one thing, Jesus said if we blaspheme, we will never be forgiven. This is about being faithful.

A man who abuses his wife is not faithful.

I am sorry that you do not understand my words that I had written.

 

[Eladar]

Elk,

Really, in matters of divorce, theft, murder, lying, etc. etc., what difference does it make if we sin. Sin is sin.

Yes, sin is sin. Everyone sins. There is no escaping sin as long as we are in these bodies. Yet God's people will not live a lifestyle that is in rebellion to God's commands. By our fruits we are known.

Do you think that one is trapped in marriage even if one is trying to kill the other? If the person allows it and gets murdered, won't even more sin be on another's head?

This is why Jesus said it would be better if one did not marry at all. If someone dies, then that person's life is over and if that person was one of God's children, then that person will go to heaven.

I know the Bible says that we are sheep for the slaughter, but we don't have to help people to live in their sin of violence. What purpose does it serve?

Only God knows the answer to that question. What purpose does any life serve? Everything is to God's purpose and to God's glory.

Really, are not people who get mixed up in bad marriages, drugs, drinking, and such, are they not often the people who love much?

It depends on your definition of love. People who get mixed up in bad marriages can still love. If a person is caught up in an addiction, then such a person is demonstrating a sign of the flesh and therefore probably doesn't demonstrate too much love.

Is there no pardon or forgiveness for love?

Once again, that all depends on one's definition of love.

Gotta go.

 

[Elnora]

Wow I always thought it was better to be unmarried so a person could give all of his attention to serving the Lord.

I also though the definition of love was 1 Corinthians:13

 

[Elnora]

Thank you for that Abiyah,

I want to state right here to others that this is not for me. But someone very dear. I don't want anyone to give the wrong impression.

 

[Elk]

I don't know how I managed it, but I seemed to have missed some pages on this topic because I thought it was another topic that is titled similar to this one. I am very sorry. Twisted brain alert. (grin)
I have been thinking a lot about these issues, and it has really helped me to see a new light in what has been mentioned. (I know someone who is considering divorce.) I am thankful to all who helped me to see more clearly. Thank you.

Eladar, it made me so sad to see that you twisted the truth of what Jesus said about 'better not getting married'. I hope that you go back and look it up for yourself.
May I ask you? Are you trying to justify your own personal actions? If so, please know that there is much you can do to become what God has intended for you. You do not have to be in that realm of learned behavior that is passed on from generation to generation. God loves you. Many Christian churches has free counseling of some kind, and you would not believe what a little bit can do for your whole life.
Sometimes, first comes wisdom and knowledge, and then the Lord will heal. God has used this route for me some years ago over some pains of my past, and continues to do so in various other ways, wisdom and knowledge producing understanding and results, and the Lord healing. Only the Lord heals.
I say all that to say that someone who is real dear to me said that people who are responding the way you do, might have the same problem.
If I am wrong, please forgive me.

 

[Eladar]

Originally posted by Elnora:
Wow I always thought it was better to be unmarried so a person could give all of his attention to serving the Lord.

I also though the definition of love was 1 Corinthians:13

Matthew 19:8-12 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."
The disciples said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."
But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.
"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

It seems to me that this passage says it is better to not get married based on the fact that once you marry someone you're stuck with them for the rest of your life or until one of you die.