Women deacons

[Bronconagurski]

Look to me like many of you think that the only gifts that women have access to are teaching other women, or children, cooking church suppers, and cleaning up afterward.

No, they have many other gifts that are too numerable to mention. They just can't serve in the office of a deacon or pastor. There are men that can't either. Besides, men always do the dishes after a fellowship hall supper. You're Baptist and you did not know that?

Let me end up by saying this: We live in a world that had to do a study to find out there were differences between men and women and time magazine made it front page news. Now we are gonna put women on the front lines. That is unconscionable to me. Women always use these little surveys to prove if their husbands do more around the house, like vacuum, etc, then they might be more amorous. Guess what? A recent study showed that women want men to be men, and when they are, they are more amorous. The problem that we have with women assuming men's roles is partly due to the effimination of men in school and society. God made the roles clear, and political correctness does not believe in God, and Christians jumped on the political correctness bandwagon without even realizing they were embracing rebellion against God. Sad, but true. I respect your opinion, brother, and your churches right to do function according to your constitution. We will all stand before the bema seat one day and then we will finally see. I mean, I know now, but you will see. JK

 

[OldRegular]

You must not have read the entire thread, either.

I haven't and really don't need to do so. You are apparently pushing the idea that women deacons are consistent with the teaching of Scripture. That is a false teaching. You saying otherwise does not make it so. You quoting other writers does not make it so.

The Scripture, 1 Timothy 3:12, states clearly that deacons are to be men, the husband of one wife. Your argument is not with those on this Forum who believe what Scripture says, your argument is with God, a very foolish thing to do.

 

[annsni]

Go back and read the thread. I'm not going to do it for you.

I did and didn't find anything that says that 1 Timothy 3:12 is wrong.

 

[convicted1]

Whenever women can allign themselves w/ 1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1, I'd be willing to ordain them......but.......

 

[Thomas Helwys]

No, they have many other gifts that are too numerable to mention. They just can't serve in the office of a deacon or pastor. There are men that can't either. Besides, men always do the dishes after a fellowship hall supper. You're Baptist and you did not know that?

Let me end up by saying this: We live in a world that had to do a study to find out there were differences between men and women and time magazine made it front page news. Now we are gonna put women on the front lines. That is unconscionable to me. Women always use these little surveys to prove if their husbands do more around the house, like vacuum, etc, then they might be more amorous. Guess what? A recent study showed that women want men to be men, and when they are, they are more amorous. The problem that we have with women assuming men's roles is partly due to the effimination of men in school and society. God made the roles clear, and political correctness does not believe in God, and Christians jumped on the political correctness bandwagon without even realizing they were embracing rebellion against God. Sad, but true. I respect your opinion, brother, and your churches right to do function according to your constitution. We will all stand before the bema seat one day and then we will finally see. I mean, I know now, but you will see. JK

I've never seen men do that, and I've been Baptist for a long time. Men can sure put away the chicken, biscuits, and black-eyed peas, though.

 

[annsni]

I've never seen men do that, and I've been Baptist for a long time. Men can sure put away the chicken, biscuits, and black-eyed peas, though.

All our kitchen people are men. Every Wednesdy, the two guys who cook for the teen's cafe save me a hot pretzel. I used to do the refreshments for VBS but stepped down.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

All our kitchen people are men. Every Wednesdy, the two guys who cook for the teen's cafe save me a hot pretzel. I used to do the refreshments for VBS but stepped down.

Hooray for them. And I'm not being sarcastic.

 

[annsni]

Hooray for them. And I'm not being sarcastic.

Yeah - I was posting while sick so didn't add much more than that but every time we have a cooking thing at our church except the one pot luck, it's the men cooking. Breakfasts are the men. Lunch meetings, it's the men. BBQs, it's the men. The women will help serve because we're there and want to help but there's nothing expecting that. A man designed our new kitchen (he's a chef) and he also would cater any large dinner we had.

So yep, other than me running the refreshment department for VBS, it's all the guys.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I challenge everyone to pickup a Greek text of the New Testament and show the words for "use the office of" in it. You will not find them.

Now, pick up a pre-KJV English Bible & you will see that they still are not there. Once the text is restored by rightly removing the "office" from the text, & deacon is translated instead of transliterated, we see that God gave us the qualifications for any person who serves in the church. Remove the "office" & change deacon to servant to see how well God's Word fits together without man's mishandling of the translation of the text.

 

[Bronconagurski]

I challenge everyone to pickup a Greek text of the New Testament and show the words for "use the office of" in it. You will not find them.

Now, pick up a pre-KJV English Bible & you will see that they still are not there. Once the text is restored by rightly removing the "office" from the text, & deacon is translated instead of transliterated, we see that God gave us the qualifications for any person who serves in the church. Remove the "office" & change deacon to servant to see how well God's Word fits together without man's mishandling of the translation of the text.

The word office is used for bishop, then assumed for deacon in the text. Common sense tells us that as there are qualifications given for both. But let's put that aside. The qualifications are clearly for men. Period. No way you can dispute that, so you keep throwing up your smokescreen of rebellion, no offense, but you are rebelling against what God said in his qualifications. It's time someone told you that. From the Geneva Bible:

1 Timothy 3:1-12 (GenevaBible)
1

This is a true saying, If any man desire the office of a Bishop, he desireth a worthy work.
2 A Bishop therefore must be unreproveable, the husband of one wife, watching, temperate, modest, harborous, apt to teach,
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre, but gentle, no fighter, not covetous.
4 One that can rule his own house honestly, having children under obedience with all honesty.
5 For if any cannot rule his own house, how shall he care for the Church of God?
6 He may not be a young scholar, lest he being puffed up fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 He must also be well reported of, even of them which are without, lest he fall into rebuke, and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must Deacons be grave, not double tongued, not given unto much wine, neither to filthy lucre,
9 Having the mystery of the faith in pure conscience.
10 And let them first be proved, then let them minister, if they be found blameless.
11 Likewise their wives must be honest, not evil speakers, but sober, and faithful in all things.
12 Let the Deacons be the husbands of one wife, and such as can rule their children well, and their own households.

 

[annsni]

The word office is used for bishop, then assumed for deacon in the text. Common sense tells us that as there are qualifications given for both. But let's put that aside. The qualifications are clearly for men. Period. No way you can dispute that, so you keep throwing up your smokescreen of rebellion, no offense, but you are rebelling against what God said in his qualifications. It's time someone told you that. From the Geneva Bible:

1 Timothy 3:1-12 (GenevaBible)
1

This is a true saying, If any man desire the office of a Bishop, he desireth a worthy work.
2 A Bishop therefore must be unreproveable, the husband of one wife, watching, temperate, modest, harborous, apt to teach,
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre, but gentle, no fighter, not covetous.
4 One that can rule his own house honestly, having children under obedience with all honesty.
5 For if any cannot rule his own house, how shall he care for the Church of God?
6 He may not be a young scholar, lest he being puffed up fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 He must also be well reported of, even of them which are without, lest he fall into rebuke, and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must Deacons be grave, not double tongued, not given unto much wine, neither to filthy lucre,
9 Having the mystery of the faith in pure conscience.
10 And let them first be proved, then let them minister, if they be found blameless.
11 Likewise their wives must be honest, not evil speakers, but sober, and faithful in all things.
12 Let the Deacons be the husbands of one wife, and such as can rule their children well, and their own households.

And there's just something about verse 12 that pretty clearly says "men only".

 

[Jerome]

From the Thabiti Anyabwile article to which I posted a link previously:

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs...m-a-complementarian-but-women-can-be-deacons/

A Brief Case for Women Deacons

First Timothy 3:8-13 contain some key instruction on this matter. For me, the issue turns in part on verse 11: “In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything” (NIV). Or as the ESV renders it, “Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things.”

Both the NIV and ESV contain marginal notes for the word “wives,” indicating the term may be translated “women.” So, the text could either have in view the wives of deacons (if you accept the supply of “their” in the verse), women deacons, or women who assist deacons but are not themselves deacons. Because “their” is not explicit in the text, and the word “likewise” seems to indicate another category in the list, I lean with many others in understanding this verse to refer to women deacons or at the least women who assist deacons.

Moreover, there are instances elsewhere in the New Testament that seem to indicate the apostolic church had women deacons. I think of Romans 16:1 where Phoebe is described as a “deacon.” True, the word “deacon” has a range of meanings wider than the office itself. Paul could refer to his own ministry as an apostle using the word “deacon” (1 Tim. 1:12). Most of the prohibitions have to do with the qualifications for male deacons–”husband of but one wife.” But if the assumptions I make in the previous paragraph are correct, then it would seem the Bible does not forbid women from playing this role.

Annsni and others, please clarify whether you are accusing Thabiti Anyabwile, Mark Dever, etc. of being rebellious, unbiblical, ignoring crystal clear scripture, making God a liar, etc.

 

[Bronconagurski]

From the Thabiti Anyabwile article to which I posted a link previously:

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs...m-a-complementarian-but-women-can-be-deacons/



Annsni and others, please clarify whether you are accusing Thabiti Anyabwile, Mark Dever, etc. of being rebellious, unbiblical, ignoring crystal clear scripture, making God a liar, etc.

I am saying that anyone that denies that the qualifications clearly are for men only are rebelling and denying the truth. If you want to call it lying, that's up to you. Show me anywhere in the scriptures that give a qualification for women to be deacons or pastors. You can not. The only qualifications given for women are that of a deacon's wife. Am I to believe these scholars can't read and comprehend? So the only alternative is that they want their own interpretation. It is very plain, and not a grey area when it comes to the qualifications.

 

[Bronconagurski]

And there's just something about verse 12 that pretty clearly says "men only".

And that is the part they never address. Ignorance is not bliss. Scripture doesn't contradict scripture, but the liberals put themself above scripture and make up their own rules. That is blatant, imo. If the scripture said the spouse of one spouse, then they would have an argument. If the scripture said the husband of one wife, or the wife of one husband, they would have an argument. They have not a leg to stand on.

 

[annsni]

From the Thabiti Anyabwile article to which I posted a link previously:

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs...m-a-complementarian-but-women-can-be-deacons/



Annsni and others, please clarify whether you are accusing Thabiti Anyabwile, Mark Dever, etc. of being rebellious, unbiblical, ignoring crystal clear scripture, making God a liar, etc.

I will accuse them of disobeying scripture just as much as I would anyone else if they believe that women are to fill the Biblical role of deacon. However, I see that you neglected to highlight from the quote these words:

or at the least women who assist deacons.

So Thabiti accepts women who assist deacons as do I. But in light of verse 12, it is very difficult to say that women can possibly fill the role of deacon according to Paul and so we must look at these verses where we scream "women deacon" as something other than that. You can't argue with verse 12 - that verse is crystal clear. So since women do not fulfill that qualification, Phoebe must have another role than the office of deacon. Verse 11 is then speaking of either deacon's wives or women who assist the deacons. I just don't understand how anyone can say 'Women deacons are right' in light of verse 12.

 

[Bronconagurski]

I will accuse them of disobeying scripture just as much as I would anyone else if they believe that women are to fill the Biblical role of deacon. However, I see that you neglected to highlight from the quote these words:



So Thabiti accepts women who assist deacons as do I. But in light of verse 12, it is very difficult to say that women can possibly fill the role of deacon according to Paul and so we must look at these verses where we scream "women deacon" as something other than that. You can't argue with verse 12 - that verse is crystal clear. So since women do not fulfill that qualification, Phoebe must have another role than the office of deacon. Verse 11 is then speaking of either deacon's wives or women who assist the deacons. I just don't understand how anyone can say 'Women deacons are right' in light of verse 12.

You make a good point and I agree that a woman can assist deacons, and while not being one, can still serve in that capacity. Sheesh, they act like anyone that does not agree with their liberal theology is like "the man" trying to keep everyone else down. Is there unrighteousness with God? Perish the thought. Is God sovereign? Yes. Did God say what He meant? Absolutely.

 

[Jerome]

So Thabiti accepts women who assist deacons as do I.

Now that's profound. Is there anyone who wouldn't?

You can't argue with verse 12 - that verse is crystal clear.

Did you 'neglect' to notice Anyabwile explain that that verse is about qualifications for male deacons? The next verse is about female deacons.



Annsni, do you agree with Bronco that these pastors are blatant liberals?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I challenge everyone to pickup a Greek text of the New Testament and show the words for "use the office of" in it. You will not find them.

Now, pick up a pre-KJV English Bible & you will see that they still are not there. Once the text is restored by rightly removing the "office" from the text, & deacon is translated instead of transliterated, we see that God gave us the qualifications for any person who serves in the church. Remove the "office" & change deacon to servant to see how well God's Word fits together without man's mishandling of the translation of the text.

1.) There is no such thing as "THE" Greek text of the New Testament...does not exist. Never has, never will. Which particular manuscripts are most advised is a heavily disputed topic to this day, thus "THE" "Original Greek" is not something we should get caught up on...but either way:

2.) Your argument is built upon the assertion that the older translations are inherently superior and assumed to be more adequate and that the KJV is inferior and that it is superior to utilize the elder translations in your words:

Once the text is restored by rightly removing the "office" from the text, & deacon is translated instead of transliterated, we see that God gave us the qualifications for any person who serves in the church.

Let us then apply your own argument in view of the text...here are the problems:

1.) LAW OF FIRST MENTION:
This rule of hermeneutic essentially states that the FIRST time that a Theological idea or term or notion is mentioned....that that is usually best understood as the "control" or operative standard one should use when understanding the newly submitted idea.

a: We FIRST read of this idea or Theological notion (as it relates to the New Testament Church) in The book of Acts as instructed by the APOSTLES....ALL of the Apostles. The entirety of the "TWELVE" apostles (who know more than you think you do) told them to select seven (7) men: we see this here, and I quote:
Act 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples [unto them], and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Act 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. Act 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
Act 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

Let us then pretend that your obsession against the verbiage

"use the office of"

is signifigant or even matters: and I will translate the qualifications for a "deacon" in light of MY PERSONALLY preferred rendering, [which I think to be more faithful to the original] wherein the passage should read:
1Ti 3:1 ¶ This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the staus of being bleu cheese he desireth a good work.

We shall continue the qualifications listed in the passage...ASSUMING my preference for "the office of" to be more properly translated as "the status of bleu cheese"...merely so we can understand context:
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; <----women are NOT to teach MEN 1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1Ti 3:8 ¶ Likewise [must] the deacons ...but we shall substitue "the office of" for "the status of bleu cheese...which is, IMO more faithful to the original:...and continue with the qualifications for "The status of bleu cheese"...
1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the status of bleu cheese being [found] blameless.
1Ti 3:11 Even so [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.


In which particular passage of Scripture are women told or encouraged or ordered to "Rule their children and their own houses"?? Is there ANY passage which God speaks to us about whether women are to teach and instruct men?? What does that passage say???


NOW:....Should we use the original Greek to translate "LIKEWISE" to "in no way shape or form???"



Your argument is not Scripture. Period.....Anyone who desireth "the status of bleu cheese" is a man...

 

[Thomas Helwys]

This charge that women's ordination is a liberal position is absolutely false. The Holiness churches which are very conservative and have been from the beginning have also been ordaining women from the beginning, and that's been for a hundred years. Also, the pentecostals.

And as shown from the Thomas Helwys confession of faith, the first English Baptist confession, the General Baptists believed in women deacons. Anyone want to call them liberal? This charge of "liberal" is only used to discredit people and as a smokescreen.

 

[OldRegular]

From the Thabiti Anyabwile article to which I posted a link previously:

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs...m-a-complementarian-but-women-can-be-deacons/



Annsni and others, please clarify whether you are accusing Thabiti Anyabwile, Mark Dever, etc. of being rebellious, unbiblical, ignoring crystal clear scripture, making God a liar, etc.

I guess I am one of those strange old people who believes that the Scripture trumps anything else!