Women in Ministry

[Crabtownboy]

Scripture is pretty clear. No woman is to have authority over men and are told to be silent in church. (1 Timothy 2:12-13; 1 Corinthians 14:33-35)

As I talked about Corinthians in an earlier post I will limit this one to I Timothy. As I said earlier, I am not as familiar with the background of Timothy, so I had to do a bit of research. I can do more if you like.

Anyway I will quote from the Layman's Bible Book Commentary. I could research others, but since most here are Baptist I decided to use one published by Broadman Press.

"The instructions for women in the Pastoral Epistles create problems for Christians today. In practice, if not in theory, we have to recognize that some aspects of these teachings are provisional. For example dress codes vary from place to place and from time to time. " p. 215

"The exact role of women in the early church is not clear. It seemed to vary to a great extent as reflected in the New Testament documents. In Acts 18:26 Priscilla and Aquila both taught Apollos the way fo God.. Since she is mentioned first, Priscilla was evidently more important in the early church than her husband. [underlined emphasis mine] In 1 Corinthians 11:5 Paul gave instructions for women who pray and prophesy (preach) in the church. p. 215-6

Verse 15 contains a rather difficult statement. In RSV translates: "Women will be saved through bearing children." p 216

[I really do not think many of us believe this statement]

So we see that from Paul's own writings in I Cor. that women must have preached in the early church and he gives guidelines, but does not say they must stop.

 

[trustitl]

"Do you really think any human has authority over you?"

Most certainly. Police officers, township officials, the Governor, the people I work for......

Authority is good. I have it over my wife, my children, people that work for me....


Websters 1828
AUTHOR'ITY, n. [L. auctoritas.]

1. Legal power, or a right to command or to act; as the authority of a prince over subjects, and of parents over children. Power; rule; sway.

Jesus told his disciples that he gave them all authority. I think that applies to me as well. I have authority. I am an ambassador of Christ. I can speak on his behalf. If you are in error I am obligated to use that authority. Does that mean everything I say is in line with the authority given me? No. That is where you need to discern.

The government has authority given to it by God. They are supposed to practice it in line with what is right. When they overstep I am not obligated to submit to it. For example, if they say I am to pray to a false God, I will not submit for they have no authority to tell me to do that.

The same is true with me. I have authority to speak on behalf of God. If I overstep, you have no obligation to submit. However, if I do speak truth and you do not submit, you are not resisting me, you are resisting God. As his ambassador I am not offended for I know who you are failing to submit to.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Crabtownboy
"Pauls letter to the Corinthians was that, to the Corinthians. He did not say, "To all the churches in the Roman empire. The church there was filled with many problems which Paul addresses. The situation there was unique among churches and thus his advice had to be addressed uniquely to them."


How do you reconcile the following verses?

I Cor. 1:2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's".

II Tim 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

What is the context of the quote from Corinthians? What was his purpose in writing to the Corinthians? What problems was he addressing? Did other churches have these problems? Pulling one verse as a proof text leads to error. I am not impressed with proof text.

I have a friend who has more of the Bible memorized than any person I have ever met ... and he can pull out proof text after proof text to prove his poing ... but his personal theology is the most mixed up mess I have ever heard. But he can prove all his points with his proof texts.

I do not see how your reference in Timothy applies ... sorry. And again it is a proof text.

 

[trustitl]

The context of I Cor. 1:2 is the introduction or salutation as it is sometimes called. Paul is just letting us know who the letter is addressed to. To me it made sense to point it out because he adds "with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ". It seems to address the issue you raised concerning the issue of whom the letter was appliccable to. I guess you didn't get it.

You sure don't like proof texts do you. How is it you can go to a commentary and quote a sentence that supports your opinion? At least my text is in scripture.

If you don't get how the Timothy passage applies you will have a hard time understanding how any of the bible will. Do you not see the letter to the Corinthians as scripture?

 

[trustitl]

You use the Galations passage to point out that we are all the same. Why is it then that a letter to one group would not apply to us all?

 

[Crabtownboy]

You sure don't like proof texts do you. How is it you can go to a commentary and quote a sentence that supports your opinion? At least my text is in scripture.

Actually I was quite surprised that the Broadman Press, the Layman's Commentary carried the statements it did. After all Broadman Press is conservative, no one would ever call it liberal. Are there other commentaries you would like me to check when I have time?

And no I do not like proof texts. A person can prove almost anything they want by selectively using proof texts. Gee whiz, I am not even a scholar and I can see the problems of proof texts.

 

[trustitl]

I'm actually not a big fan of using commentaries. I know they can be helpful, but I think they hinder us more than they help.

I share your dislike of quoting scripture out of context. How do you explain your use of the passage in Galations earlier?

 

[trustitl]

Do you know who says Broadman Press is conservative? Those who are more liberal and don't like what it says and those that want to be conservative and like what it says.

I don't even know who Broadman Press is so I am not trying to say they are or aren't conservative. I just find it interesting when we use labels like liberal and conservative.

Do you know the answer to the following?

I am both and I am neither. What am I?

The answer: conservative and liberal. To some I am conservative to other I am liberal.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Do you know who says Broadman Press is conservative? Those who are more liberal and don't like what it says and those that want to be conservative and like what it says.

I don't even know who Broadman Press is so I am not trying to say they are or aren't conservative. I just find it interesting when we use labels like liberal and conservative.

Do you know the answer to the following?

I am both and I am neither. What am I?

The answer: conservative and liberal. To some I am conservative to other I am liberal.

Broadman Press is the publishing arm of the Southern Baptist Convention. The SBC is not liberal.

I know what you mean when you say some think you are liberal and some think you are consevative. I am in the same camp ... though I must say that as I have become older and have studied Christ's life and teachings more and have taken his teachings more and more seriously the more often I am called liberal. If Christ is liberal, than I am in good company.:wavey:

 

[mrtumnus]

Verse 15 contains a rather difficult statement. In RSV translates: "Women will be saved through bearing children." p 216

[I really do not think many of us believe this statement]

How do Baptists generally interpret this statement? I've wondered about that too.

 

[Zenas]

Broadman Press is the publishing arm of the Southern Baptist Convention. The SBC is not liberal.

The Layman's Bible Book Commentarywas written probably in the 1950's or 1960's when the SBC was a lot more liberal than it is now.

 

[annsni]

In the 1 Timothy passage, Paul says "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." and he goes on to say why "For Adam was first formed, then Eve." This would not be an explanation that would be conditional to just one church since he pointed to an event that connects all of us.

In the 1 Corinthians passage, he says "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. " yet in the verse just before, he says "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." I'm not sure of the original Greek in this but there are some versions that have the "as in all the churches of the saints" to go with the "Let your women keep silence in the churches". I'm not sure of the original punctuation in there. However, the verse divisions are our invention and the complete thought is addressing "as in all the churches of the saints".

In reading these two passages, I do not see them as being just for a particular church in a particular time.

 

[chuck2336]

I believe three things.

I believe there is a God.

I believe that it is God who calls leaders, Pastors, Deacons etc.

I also believe that I am not God.

These three things being true I can not tell Him who He can and can not call.

Didnt the Judges have authority over all the folks?

Is there not a woman judge mentioned in the Bible?

The Bible does not say that the female deacon mentioned was over only the childrens department.

I see what everyone is saying and to both sides I say hear what the Bible says. Do not add to or take away from so that it will fit your need

 

[Debby in Philly]

I've posted this link before. It's the best apologetic I've ever seen in favor of female leadership. It's worth the time to read it, even if you've made your mind up.

http://www.covchurch.org/uploads/Ul...l-and-Theological-Basis-for-Women-in-Min..pdf

 

[annsni]

I've posted this link before. It's the best apologetic I've ever seen in favor of female leadership. It's worth the time to read it, even if you've made your mind up.

http://www.covchurch.org/uploads/Ul...l-and-Theological-Basis-for-Women-in-Min..pdf

You might want to look at some of the very well researched articles at http://www.cbmw.org/

 

[Alcott]

Broadman Press is the publishing arm of the Southern Baptist Convention. The SBC is not liberal.

Although others here are surely more knowledgeable on the subject than I am, the Broadman Bible Commentary was published years before the "conservative resurgence" in the SBC which started getting its candidates elected in 1979. But the conservative movement was gaining momentum well before then, and the Broadman Commentary was definitely a part of that, as there were resolutions introduced (and defeated) to cease its use and further printing because it did not uphold biblical "inerrancy." And I don't know the history of the last 30 years, but as the commentary apparently has not been 'scrapped,' it must have been amended, but not completely, as the passages you cite sound just like what the inerrancy movement would oppose.

 

[annsni]

Scripture is pretty clear. No woman is to have authority over men and are told to be silent in church. (1 Timothy 2:12-13; 1 Corinthians 14:33-35)

As I talked about Corinthians in an earlier post I will limit this one to I Timothy. As I said earlier, I am not as familiar with the background of Timothy, so I had to do a bit of research. I can do more if you like.

Anyway I will quote from the Layman's Bible Book Commentary. I could research others, but since most here are Baptist I decided to use one published by Broadman Press.

"The instructions for women in the Pastoral Epistles create problems for Christians today. In practice, if not in theory, we have to recognize that some aspects of these teachings are provisional. For example dress codes vary from place to place and from time to time. " p. 215

"The exact role of women in the early church is not clear. It seemed to vary to a great extent as reflected in the New Testament documents. In Acts 18:26 Priscilla and Aquila both taught Apollos the way fo God.. Since she is mentioned first, Priscilla was evidently more important in the early church than her husband. [underlined emphasis mine] In 1 Corinthians 11:5 Paul gave instructions for women who pray and prophesy (preach) in the church. p. 215-6

Verse 15 contains a rather difficult statement. In RSV translates: "Women will be saved through bearing children." p 216

[I really do not think many of us believe this statement]

So we see that from Paul's own writings in I Cor. that women must have preached in the early church and he gives guidelines, but does not say they must stop.

I'm sorry but I have not heard that prophesying is preaching. Also, giving a word of prophecy does not have a stamp of authority on the person giving the word. There is a very big difference. Apparently, from reading the Scriptures, all those in the congregation or gathering could give a word of prophecy as they were led. This was not one person who was in authority over the group nor were they teaching.

 

[Zenas]

Although others here are surely more knowledgeable on the subject than I am, the Broadman Bible Commentary was published years before the "conservative resurgence" in the SBC which started getting its candidates elected in 1979. But the conservative movement was gaining momentum well before then, and the Broadman Commentary was definitely a part of that, as there were resolutions introduced (and defeated) to cease its use and further printing because it did not uphold biblical "inerrancy." And I don't know the history of the last 30 years, but as the commentary apparently has not been 'scrapped,' it must have been amended, but not completely, as the passages you cite sound just like what the inerrancy movement would oppose.

The Broadman Commentary has pretty much been scrapped. I don't know if it is still in print but I doubt it. In the 1980's Broadman Press (now B & H Publishing Group) decided the Broadman Bible Commentary was too liberal and launched an effort to publish a new commentary--The New American Commentary. Each volume is written by a different author and contains one or two books of the Bible. It is based on the NIV. My church has a set and I use it often.

 

[trustitl]

I believe three things.

I believe there is a God.

I believe that it is God who calls leaders, Pastors, Deacons etc.

I also believe that I am not God.

These three things being true I can not tell Him who He can and can not call.

Didnt the Judges have authority over all the folks?

Is there not a woman judge mentioned in the Bible?

The Bible does not say that the female deacon mentioned was over only the childrens department.

I see what everyone is saying and to both sides I say hear what the Bible says. Do not add to or take away from so that it will fit your need

It does appear that you think that you CAN tell God that he is able to call women into positions of authority in the Churchdespite clear scripture that says otherwise. Your use of Debra is a little on the over used side. Hopefully you will see the difference between the nation of Israel and the Kingdom of God someday. It is a wonderful difference.

 

[Crabtownboy]

It does appear that you think that you CAN tell God that he is able to call women into positions of authority in the Churchdespite clear scripture that says otherwise. Your use of Debra is a little on the over used side. Hopefully you will see the difference between the nation of Israel and the Kingdom of God someday. It is a wonderful difference.

Hopefully you will consider all of the Bible and all of the women mentioned and their leadership roles in the church before you make a decision as you indicate above. Don't use proof texts, use all of the Bible. :thumbs:

In Romans 16:1-2, Phoebe, a woman, was a "diakonon" of the church in Cenchrea. The same Greek word translated "servant"9 here, is translated "minister" in twenty-two other scriptures such as in Col 1:25 "Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God," NAS

Junia is called an apostle by Paul ... so certainly she was considered a leader.

Romans 16:7. "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding2 among the apostles3, and they were in Christ before I was." NIV4

An evangelist named Philip had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses. Acts 21:8,9.

Acts 2:18, "…both men and women…shall prophesy,"

Anna was also a prophetess, Luke 2:36.

At Ephesus, Priscilla (listed before her husband Aquila) taught the learned minister Apollos more accurately in the faith, Acts 18:18-26. Some translations add that this happened in their house but the Greek for Acts 18:26 only tells us that they took Apollos unto themselves and doesn't mention a house. The word used for explained or expounded is the same word used when Peter publicly explained the truth in Acts 11:47. Priscilla and Aquila also established a church in Rome, Romans 16:3-5, and risked their lives for Paul.

Both Euodia and Syntyche evangelized publicly with Paul; they "contended at my side in the cause of the gospel". Both women zealously "contended", and the Greek word that Paul used conjures up verbal team wrestling! The word8 means "to wrestle in company with". They publicly wrestled with words right beside Paul as they all three publicly defended the faith! Their names are "in the book of life" together with a male co-worker named Clement, Phil 4:2-3 NIV

Paul greets Nympha among other church leaders and greets her house church. She is the only leader mentioned by name in her town. Col. 4:15

Lydia had a church meeting in her home, Acts 16:14, 15 and 40.

Chloe, whose converts are indicated as belonging to Chloe as a group or church, in 1 Cor 1:11 "For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you." NAS

Paul praises a household of ministers headed by a person named Stephanas or Stephana, a woman's name, the feminine form of Stephen. 1 Cor 16:15-16 "Now I urge you, brethren (you know the household of Stephanas that they were the first fruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves for ministry to the saints), that you also be in subjection to such (meaning such ones, "men" is not in the Greek) and to everyone who helps in the work and labors."

Was Stephana having trouble with church members not treating her with respect because she was a female? Notice that Paul rejoiced that she and the two males with her (her sons?) had arrived to re-supply his needs.

Paul is scolding the Corinthians saying that they had not supplied what he needed but Stephana and the two men had arrived and provided for him. Paul concludes his rebuke by saying that people such as this should be acknowledged! (Again "such men", as some translations render, is not in the Greek text.)

Another woman who was serving as a pastor or evangelist was the woman John writes the book of 2 John to. He addresses her in Greek as "Eklektee kuria", the first word meaning "Chosen of God," Thayer's definition; and the second word, "Kuria" is the feminine form of "Kuros," which means "supreme in authority"16! John writes to her, "It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us." 2 John 1:4.