Women in Ministry

[gekko]

Hey all

i know there's probably been so many debates on this here at the BB.. couldn't find any on a quick search though.

BUT - i have two links here. one agree's with women in ministry (ie. pastors, elders, deacons etc.)

the other does not.
---

so have a read - i'm currently reading over them myself.
hoping not to get such a heated debate where posts get deleted. hehe.

---

here's the links:

Women in Ministry = Yes

Women in Ministry = No

let's try to have an open mind - and trust only scripture (in context of course)
raying::thumbs:

 

[Crabtownboy]

No question, women can be both. I've known women deacons and women ministers. In fact, the best minister I've had in any church I have been a member of was/is a woman. And, yes I am Baptist.

Remember:

Phoebe was a deacon.
Junia, a woman, is called an asposle.

Euodia and Syntyche are called his, Paul's, fellow-workers in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3).

Paul tells of women who were the leaders of house churches (Apphia in Philemon 2; Prisca in I Corinthians 16:19).

Paul believed that women are praying and prophesying during worship (I Corinthians 11).

From very early, an order of women who were widows served formal roles of ministry in some churches (I Timothy 5:9-10)


From the beginning, Jewish women disciples, including Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Susanna, had accompanied Jesus during his ministry and supported him out of their private means (Luke 8:1-3). He spoke to women both in public and private, and indeed he learned from them. According to one story, an unnamed Gentile woman taught Jesus that the ministry of God is not limited to particular groups and persons, but belongs to all who have faith (Mark 7:24-30; Matthew 15:21-28).


There are writing discovered that are not included in the canon telling of the ministry and work of women in the early church. Fellows, we gotta just suck it up, temper the egos, and admit that women can legimately play very important roles in the church, including being a minister, deacon, teacher, etc. I know, I know some are going to pull out their favorite proof texts to try to say this is wrong, but the weight of evidence from scripture and from other writings is against you. So you might as well look at the Bible as a whole and accept it. Don't call yourself fundamental or conservative and then take a liberal approach to scripture and try to make it say what you you believe. Let the Bible speak to you, don't try to speak for the Bible!

 

[annsni]

Scripture is pretty clear. No woman is to have authority over men and are told to be silent in church. (1 Timothy 2:12-13; 1 Corinthians 14:33-35)

No question, women can be both. I've known women deacons and women ministers. In fact, the best minister I've had in any church I have been a member of was/is a woman. And, yes I am Baptist.

Just because she was "good" doesn't make it right Scripturally.

Phoebe was a deacon. Junia, a woman, is called an asposle.

Euodia and Syntyche are called his, Paul's, fellow-workers in the gospel (Philippians 4:2-3).

Paul tells of women who were the leaders of house churches (Apphia in Philemon 2; Prisca in I Corinthians 16:19).

None of these women are shown to be leaders. A deacon doesn't mean a pastor - it's a servant. Women can certainly serve in the church and should. But they cannot have authority over men which the position of teacher and pastor would have.

Paul believed that women are praying and prophesying during worship (I Corinthians 11).

Correct.

From very early, an order of women who were widows served formal roles of ministry in some churches (I Timothy 5:9-10)

True - women have, can and should serve in the church. It's part of being part of the body of Christ.

From the beginning, Jewish women disciples, including Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Susanna, had accompanied Jesus during his ministry and supported him out of their private means (Luke 8:1-3). He spoke to women both in public and private, and indeed he learned from them. According to one story, an unnamed Gentile woman taught Jesus that the ministry of God is not limited to particular groups and persons, but belongs to all who have faith (Mark 7:24-30; Matthew 15:21-28).

Someone taught Jesus something He didn't know? I've never heard that twist before. That would make Jesus not God, right?

There are writing discovered that are not included in the canon telling of the ministry and work of women in the early church. Fellows, we gotta just suck it up, temper the egos, and admit that women can legimately play very important roles in the church, including being a minister, deacon, teacher, etc. I know, I know some are going to pull out their favorite proof texts to try to say this is wrong, but the weight of evidence from scripture and from other writings is against you. So you might as well look at the Bible as a whole and accept it. Don't call yourself fundamental or conservative and then take a liberal approach to scripture and try to make it say what you you believe. Let the Bible speak to you, don't try to speak for the Bible!

I'm a woman and I don't accept what you're saying. I also don't accept extrabiblical "proofs" as what the early church did. There was sin and disobedience back then just as there is today. If there wasn't, then Paul would not have had to give the instruction that women are not to have authority over men. A minister, a Deacon (not just a servant but the official role that is meant for someone who is the "husband of one wife" (1 Timothy)) and a teacher of men are all to be male as that is God's design.

However, women have such an important role in the church and I know in our own church, without women, things just wouldn't function well. Our women teach other women and children, do counseling, run the preschool, assist in the children's ministry, do the graphics and the website, do worship, work with youth, manage the bookstore, welcome, greet and pray with those who need it, and a plethora of other things. It doesn't diminish the importance of women to not have them in leadership over men and there's great blessing in following the Word in our roles.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Scripture is pretty clear. No woman is to have authority over men and are told to be silent in church. (1 Timothy 2:12-13; 1 Corinthians 14:33-35)

I believe if you carefully study these verses in context you will see that Paul was writing concerning a specific church with specific problems and not to all churches.

None of these women are shown to be leaders. A deacon doesn't mean a pastor - it's a servant. Women can certainly serve in the church and should. But they cannot have authority over men which the position of teacher and pastor would have.

If Phoebe was a decon, a servent with enough merit for Paul to mention her, then I expect she was respected by all and considered a leader. [Tell decons in most Baptist churches they are not leaders and they will be upset with you. :laugh: ]

And if Junia merited being called a disciple, then I cannot imagine her not being a leader.

Someone taught Jesus something He didn't know? I've never heard that twist before. That would make Jesus not God, right?

I do not believe Jesus was born knowing everything and had to learn ... and there is no doubt he was an excellent student.

I'm a woman and I don't accept what you're saying. I also don't accept extrabiblical "proofs" as what the early church did. There was sin and disobedience back then just as there is today. If there wasn't, then Paul would not have had to give the instruction that women are not to have authority over men. A minister, a Deacon (not just a servant but the official role that is meant for someone who is the "husband of one wife" (1 Timothy)) and a teacher of men are all to be male as that is God's design.

As I said above about this. Also, if we are literalists and say he was talking to all churches, then as far as we know Paul did not qualify to be a deacon.

However, women have such an important role in the church and I know in our own church, without women, things just wouldn't function well. Our women teach other women and children, do counseling, run the preschool, assist in the children's ministry, do the graphics and the website, do worship, work with youth, manage the bookstore, welcome, greet and pray with those who need it, and a plethora of other things. It doesn't diminish the importance of women to not have them in leadership over men and there's great blessing in following the Word in our roles.

If it were not for women most churches would fold their tents very quickly.

 

[annsni]

Can you show me where these instructions by Paul in Timothy and Corinthians are just to a specific church?

And where these women were in authority over men? Can you show me in the New Testament one example where a woman was clearly in authority over men?

 

[Jerome]

...they cannot have authority over men which the position of teacher...
...a teacher of men are all to be male as that is God's design.
...Our women teach other women and children...

I know. That is why Paul condemned Priscilla in no uncertain terms for having the gall to instruct Preacher Apollos in the way of God! Amen.

 

[annsni]

I know. That is why Paul condemned Priscilla in no uncertain terms for having the gall to instruct Preacher Apollos in the way of God! Amen.

Acts 18:26 - "He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately."

Note that it was with her husband in her own home. Certainly not a leadership role in the church where authority was held.

 

[Jerome]

No wonder. My Bible left out the "invited home" part. It's so frustrating when my Bible totally fails to translate words that are so obviously there in the Greek!:BangHead:

 

[annsni]

Well, sir - absolutely forgive me for having someone reset my BibleGateway (I hate when that happens). The KJV, if you prefer says:

And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Again, was this in the corporate body of believers - or separate and awy from others? Whether it was in their own home or in another's home or in the back room of another building, they did it together, away from the others. My husband and I can together minister and teach someone else (and we do) but that doesn't mean that I am in authority, or in a pastoral or leadership role. It just doesn't cut it.

 

[Alcott]

From the beginning, Jewish women disciples, including Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Susanna, had accompanied Jesus during his ministry and supported him out of their private means (Luke 8:1-3). He spoke to women both in public and private, and indeed he learned from them. According to one story, an unnamed Gentile woman taught Jesus that the ministry of God is not limited to particular groups and persons, but belongs to all who have faith (Mark 7:24-30; Matthew 15:21-28).

I contest that Jesus "learned from them." He accepted their support, he talked to them, even in public, and he taught and questioned them. But I don't think he had to learn anything from them, in particular not the gentile woman to which you referred. He told her it isn't right to take the childrens' food and throw it to the dogs-- he didn't say he wouldn't help her under any circumstances and then change his mind. Rather, she accepted what he said and added the learned comment he was looking for-- that's being a teacher, not a pupil.

But even with that, I don't know how Jesus 'learned' everything in life he had to; but I don't think that even as a fetus he was the all-knowing God who could speak every language and knew quantum mechanics. So even if there was learning involved to function as a person, I don't think Jesus was still being morally corrected, or any such thing, by women or by men, by the time of his public ministry. I rather suspect-- that's the limit of what I can do here-- that Jesus may have 'burnt the midnight oil' more than anyone in history to know all he had to accomplish 'to the letter.' But once he did, he was all teacher, not learner.

As to the question of this thread (I'm finally getting to it), I stand with Paul's precepts of an elder or deacon being the husband of one wife-- making me ineligible, since I'm not (and never been) married. But there are many ways to serve without being elder or deacon, and if deacon means nothing more than servant, the word would seem to be meaningless, since everyone in the church, even Jesus himself, came to serve, not be served [in KJV terms, "not to be ministered unto, but to minister"]. But that's rather a loop, if everyone serves and there's no one to be served.

But taking this one step further, I have resolved that assembling together for prayer, praise, songs, maybe prophecy or tongues, has its limits; meaning all these other things we do-- "Sunday School," training seminars, picnics, missions exhibits, et al-- are not included in the assembly limitations. So women can teach in Bible Studay/Sunday School, and direct and chair these other programs, because scripture really says nothing about them; we do them in support of the 'main event,' the worship assembly. And certainly-- deacon or not, minister or not-- anyone can share their knowledge and experiences to those inside or outside the church in order to do what we all should do-- serve; minister, per se.

 

[trustitl]

Gekko,
I linked to the article in support of women being able to fulfill all roles in the church. As I read through I came upon the following:

WOMAN, THOU ART LOOSED!

We pray that this teaching will encourage many women, who might otherwise relegate themselves to the "back burner" to instead step forward into the full calling of God upon their lives.

This is a sad appeal to the lusts of the flesh in my opinion. God created Eve to be Adam's helpmeet. To say that it is the "back burner" is a slap in the face to God and His created order.

About 15 years ago I was teaching Bible in a Christian school to 6th grade students. The denomination I was associated with at the time was battling over the issue of women elders (look that one up in the Strongs my Baptist friends). I was explaining both side of the issue and said that women feel like they are unable to fully use their gifts if they are limited in which roles they could fill in the church (I didn't say they were put on the back burner :saint: ). A young girl raised her hand and said that the women could use all their gifts no matter what and that they just wanted to have control. Out of the mouths of babes...

She must have been listening when I had gone over the effects of sin.

 

[mrtumnus]

As to the question of this thread (I'm finally getting to it), I stand with Paul's precepts of an elder or deacon being the husband of one wife-- making me ineligible, since I'm not (and never been) married. .

I have a question because I have seen this interpretation more than once. Do Baptists also conclude that if a man is married but has no children they are also not qualified to be an elder?

And what if their children aren't well behaved? What if after they're a deacon their children show signs of not being obedient? Do they have to resign? What's the criteria to determine if the children meet the requirement of being obedient? Does the requirement only apply to minor children, or adult children as well?

 

[Zenas]

Jesus chose 12 men as his disciples. The 11 apostles chose a man to take the office of Judas. Jesus chose Saul, a man, as an apostle to the gentiles. He chose no women as apostles with authority over His church. If He had, I would be all for it because I expect they would do a pretty good job. But He did not choose any women and neither should we.

 

[Beth]

I'm with her.

Scripture is pretty clear. No woman is to have authority over men and are told to be silent in church. (1 Timothy 2:12-13; 1 Corinthians 14:33-35)



Just because she was "good" doesn't make it right Scripturally.



None of these women are shown to be leaders. A deacon doesn't mean a pastor - it's a servant. Women can certainly serve in the church and should. But they cannot have authority over men which the position of teacher and pastor would have.



Correct.



True - women have, can and should serve in the church. It's part of being part of the body of Christ.




Someone taught Jesus something He didn't know? I've never heard that twist before. That would make Jesus not God, right?




I'm a woman and I don't accept what you're saying. I also don't accept extrabiblical "proofs" as what the early church did. There was sin and disobedience back then just as there is today. If there wasn't, then Paul would not have had to give the instruction that women are not to have authority over men. A minister, a Deacon (not just a servant but the official role that is meant for someone who is the "husband of one wife" (1 Timothy)) and a teacher of men are all to be male as that is God's design.

However, women have such an important role in the church and I know in our own church, without women, things just wouldn't function well. Our women teach other women and children, do counseling, run the preschool, assist in the children's ministry, do the graphics and the website, do worship, work with youth, manage the bookstore, welcome, greet and pray with those who need it, and a plethora of other things. It doesn't diminish the importance of women to not have them in leadership over men and there's great blessing in following the Word in our roles.

I'm with Ann on this one.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Paul called Junia an apostle. Junia is a woman's name and though some have tried to say this is not correct all the oldest biblical texts available use the name 'Junia.' It is true that in later texts the name has been changed to a make it appear that Junia was actually a man. In fact, one ancient writer, Epiphanius, called Junia a man by changing the name to the male name, Junias. But he has a credibility gap as he also tried to show that Priscilla was a man. Also there is not one record, tomb, or anything until a century or so later that the name Junias appears anywyere.

Knowing that an early writer attempted to write a woman out of the Bible it has to make us wonder how many other women were written out of the Bible. It is well known that the very early church in Rome has women leaders, but as the church became successful, especially after Christianity became the state religion that it began to look more like high Roman society where women were not allowed roles of authority.

Mary Magdalene As the "apostle to the apostles," Mary Magdalene was called as a witness to Christ's resurrection and to proclaim to others what she had heard and seen.

An apostle is defined as: any of the early followers of Jesus who carried the Christian message into the world. We know there were more than 12 apostles:
i.e. Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, So a person did not have to be called an apostle in the Bible to actually be an apostle.

Apostles established churches (Rom. 15:17-20), exposed error (Gal. 1:6-9), and defended the truth of the gospel (Phil. 1:7,17). Some were empowered by the Holy Spirit to perform Miracles (Matt. 10:1,8) and they were to preach the gospel (Matt. 28:19,20).

 

[Crabtownboy]

Can you show me where these instructions by Paul in Timothy and Corinthians are just to a specific church?

And where these women were in authority over men? Can you show me in the New Testament one example where a woman was clearly in authority over men?

1-Pauls letter to the Corinthians was that, to the Corinthians. He did not say, "To all the churches in the Roman empire. The church there was filled with many problems which Paul addresses. The situation there was unique among churches and thus his advice had to be addressed uniquely to them.

I am not as familiar with the background on the letters to Timothy, so I will have to do some research.

2-No one really has authority over another spiritually. This is obvious from the verse:


<< Galatians 3:28 >>


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

King James Bible
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

This one verse shows that in Christ all are equal and all can follow any role/goal/path that God calls them to.

I know many males, and I am male, like to stroke their egos by thinking they have 'authority' but if we read all the New Testament in context, and look carefully at Christ's life I believe we find this is not true in the sense that our modern culture believes.

 

[trustitl]

Crabtownboy:

How do you understand the following verses?

Titus 2:15 "These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you."

II Cor. 13:10 "For this reason I am writing these things while absent, so that when present I need not use severity, in accordance with the authority which the Lord gave me for building up and not for tearing down."

I Tim. 5:17 "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."

Heb. 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

 

[Crabtownboy]

Crabtownboy:

How do you understand the following verses?

Titus 2:15 "These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you."

II Cor. 13:10 "For this reason I am writing these things while absent, so that when present I need not use severity, in accordance with the authority which the Lord gave me for building up and not for tearing down."

I Tim. 5:17 "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."

Heb. 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

These will take some time if you really want me to answer. Single verses standing along do not give context and can very easily be misunderstood or even used deceptively.

Do you really think any human has authority over you?

 

[trustitl]

Crabtownboy
"Pauls letter to the Corinthians was that, to the Corinthians. He did not say, "To all the churches in the Roman empire. The church there was filled with many problems which Paul addresses. The situation there was unique among churches and thus his advice had to be addressed uniquely to them."


How do you reconcile the following verses?

I Cor. 1:2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's".

II Tim 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

 

[trustitl]

Single verses standing along do not give context and can very easily be misunderstood or even used deceptively.

FONT]

Well, you had done it with Gal. 3:28 so I figured you wouldn't mind if I pointed out some verses in a similar fashion.