Women in politics/leadership roles

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
Good post John!

Paul is giving his personal witness and Charge to Timothy. He is also telling Timothy what HIS preferences are about the place of women IN THE CHURCH...not at home.

BTW, I can be a 'keeper at home' without being in my home 24/7. When I go to the grocery store, my home is in order and I am being a 'keeper at home' even though I'm not there. It is no different with a job.

It would be wonderful if all the women who WANTED to stay home all the time COULD. Sometimes, that is just not feasible. I, for one, refuse to be made to feel guilty or unGodly or "out of submission" because of it.

Amen, Sister I Am Blessed 16 -- Preach it!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jailminister:

Here is the exact scripture:
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. It does not say IN CHURCH only.

Note, this is not the Paul telling US what WE should do, this is the Paul telling an individual what HE prefers. This is important, because here's he's writing a private letter to Timothy, a sole individual (he's not writing to a public gathering), about administrative affairs of the early church. These are not matters of God's commands to people, but Paul giving administrative advice to Timothy. This is not an edict of women being doctrinally forbidden from certain practices that men are given. If that were the case, then Paul would be telling us that women are not saved through faith alone (v15: "But women will be saved through childbearing - if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety"), and we know that is not the case. </font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Brother Johnv -- Preach it!

 

[Thankful]

Jailminster said:

Women have left the home and gone out on a job with another head over them. Accept what you want to accept, but it does not make it right. You may respect a woman who is a police officer and that is your business. I respect the badge, but I pity the woman. She has left her place, the home, and has placed her self out of the will of God.

How can you determine if anyone (man or woman) is in or out of the will of God?

This is a very strong statement and implies that women who work outside the home are not in the will of God.

I play the organ for church on Sunday Morning. This is not in my home. According to your statement, this is wrong.

I hope that no working woman who reads this Board takes you seriously.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Jailminister - You are so wrong it baffles me. Not untypical (me being baffled, not you being wrong!!)

I used my wife as an example. You truly are unaware of our life so snapped off judgment. We all do that on occasion, esp on the 'net.

You said "In 1 Corinthians 11 It gives the headship qualification. The woman only head is the man. She is head of nothing. Now you can let her do leadership as her husband, but it will be YOU who will have to answer to God for disobedience."

I ask, "How am I doing this? By letting her have a ministry for God by serving others? Where is this violating MY leadership?

You said, "It is hard to be at home and on a job also. When you put or let your wife go out of the household and work, then you are placing her under someone elses headship. Do you really want that violation of the scriptures?"

I ask, "Assuming that such IS violating Scripture (which is NOT true), my wife is the sole proprieter of her clinic. SHE is the boss. She has staff under her. She is not under anyone."

You said, "In Proverbs, she was working at home and under her husbands headship. That was her primary responsibilty. Example, My grandmother never work on a public job, but she did sewing at home to help out with the family budget. This does not violate the scriptures, because it does not take her away from home or place her under anothers headship."

I ask, "Who did your Grandmother sew for? Did they pay her or barter? If so, she is THERE laborer."

My wife and I are a team in ministry. For many years, while we had children in the home, she was a typical stay-at-home-mom. She did sewing. She did piano lessons.

When the children were all in school, she was a teacher. Left when they did; came home when they did.

Now that they are all long married and have kids, she went back for her doctorate and opened her clinic.

You are totally mistaken about my example and ludicrous in the arguments given. Since she doesn't have time to even READ the BB, she will not know of this conversation.

But she is the wife most BB men could only dream of.

 

[Gunther]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
1. Paul is giving his personal witness and Charge to Timothy.

2. He is also telling Timothy what HIS preferences are about the place of women IN THE CHURCH...not at home.

While I disagree with most of Jailminister's stuff (my wife does not work, will not work, outside the home - I make plenty for that to be so), I cannot see the justification for destroying the authority of Scripture here.

Paul was an apostle, and as such, had authority over the churches. Remember that the churches were to abide in the doctrine of the apostles. Paul specifically tells Timothy - I wrote you so that you may know how to conduct yourself in the house of God. Now, he just got done saying what he wants men to do, namely, lift up holy hands in prayer and not to doubt. Women are to learn in silence and are not to teach OR exercise authority over the man (it is two prohibitions, not just one).

So, with that in mind...

1. And as an apostle, he had the right and authority.

2. This was definitely not a preference. This was a divine command. Anything less is to ignore the text or pervert it for one's own purposes.

I cannot believe IFBs are arguing this stuff.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Jailminister:
Titus 2:5 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Women are not to be in leadership authority over the man. I am not able to support that that is contrary to God's Word.

How would you synthesize that with Prov. 31 where it says she buys a field and plants it? She also has servants too.

Several years ago my grandfather died and my grandmother was left to run the farm. Later she told me she hated it when he had her do the books over the years. But she was that she knew what to do.

 

[Jailminister]

Thankful said:

How can you determine if anyone (man or woman) is in or out of the will of God?

This is a very strong statement and implies that women who work outside the home are not in the will of God.

I play the organ for church on Sunday Morning. This is not in my home. According to your statement, this is wrong.

I hope that no working woman who reads this Board takes you seriously.

First of all I am not your judge. I am saying what God says. You can know if you are in the will of God if you are doing it by the "book".

I am not sure what playing the organ has to do with this conversaton, but I see no violation of that in the scriptures.

All women are working women. It is the location that is important. When you leave your God given role to pursue a career, then you are forsaking your role. There are some women who are forced to work outside of the home due to the failure of her husband to perform his duties as a husband. Those failures could be due to a physical problem, or his rebellion against God or his abandonment of his responsiblities or death. God knows these reasons and He is merciful. Thank God!!
Dr. Bob queried:

Jailminister - You are so wrong it baffles me. Not untypical (me being baffled, not you being wrong!!)

Dr. Bob, your opinion is showing, but I am correct. God said it, just send Him an e-mail and tell Him he is wrong.

[quoteI used my wife as an example. You truly are unaware of our life so snapped off judgment. We all do that on occasion, esp on the 'net.[/quote]
I just used what you gave me.

You said "In 1 Corinthians 11 It gives the headship qualification. The woman only head is the man. She is head of nothing. Now you can let her do leadership as her husband, but it will be YOU who will have to answer to God for disobedience."

I ask, "How am I doing this? By letting her have a ministry for God by serving others? Where is this violating MY leadership?

If you are letting her do so, then it is you who are responsible to God, not your wife.

You said, "It is hard to be at home and on a job also. When you put or let your wife go out of the household and work, then you are placing her under someone elses headship. Do you really want that violation of the scriptures?"

I ask, "Assuming that such IS violating Scripture (which is NOT true), my wife is the sole proprieter of her clinic. SHE is the boss. She has staff under her. She is not under anyone."

If she is operating under your headship and do this at home, then that is not a violation of the scriptures

You said, "In Proverbs, she was working at home and under her husbands headship. That was her primary responsibilty. Example, My grandmother never work on a public job, but she did sewing at home to help out with the family budget. This does not violate the scriptures, because it does not take her away from home or place her under anothers headship."

I ask, "Who did your Grandmother sew for? Did they pay her or barter? If so, she is THERE laborer."

See above answer. She was operating under her head and at home. No problem

You are totally mistaken about my example and ludicrous in the arguments given. Since she doesn't have time to even READ the BB, she will not know of this conversation.

Let her read it. Nothing I have said is wrong.


GB934333 asked:

How would you synthesize that with Prov. 31 where it says she buys a field and plants it? She also has servants too.

It's about headship and location. The two scriptures support one another.

Several years ago my grandfather died and my grandmother was left to run the farm. Later she told me she hated it when he had her do the books over the years. But she was that she knew what to do.

She was still under his headship and at home

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Originally posted by Gina L:
Does anyone on here have a problem with childless women taking on any of these roles? If so, how do you get around the biblical example of Deborah?
Gina

Gina, I don't even have a problem with woman with children taking on these roles.

 

[Jailminister]

Wisdom seeker said

Gina, I don't even have a problem with woman with children taking on these roles.

I am glad you said that YOU don't have a problem with women taking on these roles. God says otherwise.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Isn't it amazing how some people (Jailminister, for example) are so adapt at telling others what the will of God is for their lives. The way in which these people are the ones who know how to apply each and every scripture to each and every circumstance is astounding.

Now I'm no expert, like the afore mentioned people are, but I think if you take all of the verses that deal with the interpersonal relationships between both husbands and wives and women and men you will find that this attitude that wives cannot do anything outside the home is ludicrous. As long as the wife is, first, submitted to God, second, under the authority of their husbands, and third, not usurping authority over the church, she is biblically in good standing.

 

[CubeX]

When it comes to positions like leadership in the church and I guess also outside too, we should remember that it is God using and speaking through the person, and also that in Christ, there is no gender, we are one body. Too bad we don't work at unifying it.

-CubeX

 

[Jailminister]

Terry Herrington said:

Isn't it amazing how some people (Jailminister, for example) are so adapt at telling others what the will of God is for their lives. The way in which these people are the ones who know how to apply each and every scripture to each and every circumstance is astounding.

Now Terry, I am not "telling" anyone anything. This is a discussion board and what I said was based on the Word of God. The will of God in all our lives are easy to see if it does not conflict with the Word of God

Now I'm no expert, like the afore mentioned people are, but I think if you take all of the verses that deal with the interpersonal relationships between both husbands and wives and women and men you will find that this attitude that wives cannot do anything outside the home is ludicrous. As long as the wife is, first, submitted to God, second, under the authority of their husbands, and third, not usurping authority over the church, she is biblically in good standing.

Let's look at the word ludicrous.

Main Entry: lu·di·crous
Pronunciation: 'lü-d&-kr&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin ludicrus, from ludus play, sport; perhaps akin to Greek loidoros abusive
Date: 1782
1 : amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity, incongruity, exaggeration, or eccentricity
2 : meriting derisive laughter or scorn as absurdly inept, false, or foolish
synonym see LAUGHABLE.

So what you are saying is that what the bible says is amusing to you or laughable. Well the main problem we have in this country is the break down of the family. The father is not providing or staying around to provide. The Mother is involved with her career or is forced to leave her home to "make a living" due to a husband not doing his role. Kids are left at the mercy of the "day care provider" or even worst the "public schools". They turn to hollywood for their guidance or the latest rock music for instructions. If we do it the way God said to do it then we could see a change in the lives of future generations.

I find nothing laughable about going against the way God said to do it, but if you do, then so be it.

[ September 17, 2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Jailminister ]

 

[Terry_Herrington]

jailminister said:

"So what you are saying is that what the bible says is amusing to you or laughable."

No, it is you and your LUDICROUS interpertations that I find amusing AND laughable.

 

[Gina B]

Yikes! Calm down guys, I wanted opinions backed by scripture, not a cat fight.
Who was the author talking to in the verses quoted, and what people, places, and situations was he referring to?
Gina

 

[Jailminister]

GinaL, In spite of what Brother Herrington says, God speaks to US in ALL the scriptures. This is not even a hard interpretation. This is a easy one, but I understand that it goes against the modern society that we have today that is moving away from "thus said the Lord".

 

[Johnv]

Jailminister, you failed to answer my question. Do you plan on instructing your wife whom to vote for? Do you think a hasband has the biblical right to tell his wife whom to vote for in an election?

 

[Jailminister]

Sorry about that Johnv. I forgot you asked this question:

Jailminister, you failed to answer my question. Do you plan on instructing your wife whom to vote for? Do you think a husband has the biblical right to tell his wife whom to vote for in an election?

My wife and I discuss the issues. I listen to her and she listens to me. Once the decision is made together then we vote the same way.
Do I have a right to instruct my wife on how to vote. Yes. That comes with the role of being the head. The good thing is that we agree. If by some strange reason we don't(which to this date has never happened), then I do have the authority to tell her how to vote. I don't go in the voting booth with her, but if she rebels against her head then she must answer to God for that rebellion.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Jailminister:
... I do have the authority to tell her how to vote. I don't go in the voting booth with her, but if she rebels against her head then she must answer to God for that rebellion.

Clearly, you pervert marital biblical authority.

No Christian husband has a biblical right to force his wife to vote for someone she does not want to.

However, in your household, that's not what happens. You said you listen to your wife and the two of you make decision together, which is commendable, as well as the fulfillment of "submitting to each other as to Christ". Although, if your wife decides to vote differently on an office or position than you do, that is within her biblical right to adhere to her conscience.

 

[Jailminister]

Now Johnv, I "perverted" nothing. I have every right to instruct my wife and my children on what to do. It is up to them to follow. No organism can exist very long with 2 heads.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Jailminister:
Now Johnv, I "perverted" nothing. I have every right to instruct my wife and my children on what to do. It is up to them to follow. No organism can exist very long with 2 heads.

No, you're right. A marriage cannot have two heads, it can have only one. But that head is neither the husband, nor the wife, it is Christ.

But you have no right to "instruct" your wife as you would a child. The fact that you put them in the same category is offensive to the marital covenant, to say nothing of every married man and woman on this board.