Women in the workplace.

[Benjamin]

That's what it means to be a helper suitable for him. He didn't need character development, instruction or direction. He needed help to do a job, and he needed intelligent companionship of someone of his own nature.

He didn't know what to do with an intelligent companion (helper).

Ahh, I see this differently. They both needed character development; Adam didn’t say, “Yo Eve! Back the heck up away from that TREE! You heard what God said!” After that, and his hiding, and his whining that Eve gave it to him, God did give him instruction; He set the stage, a new position of manhood and responsibilty, “Now you gunna pay for this lack in character because NOW you “are” to rule over her.” (Does God have a sense of humor or what?!) Then he told Eve that she was gunna have desire for this…… “ruler”. IOW’s, intelligent Eve's gunna have desire for some creature whose confusing objective is about how to rule over her. Not only that, but her new job is to painfully bare children to this burdened creature as a consequence of some of that desire to have him around. Obviously, there was some serious new instruction and direction all resulting from lack of character, don’t you think?

He got help to do a job alright!

 

[Aaron]

A quote from your fav, John Calvin, on his idea that women are more likely to push for sinful activities, dress provactively in the 1500s and enjoy running around rather than finding things to occupy them at home:

http://www.cas.sc.edu/hist/faculty/e...inmarriage.pdf

The quote: Ambitious and covetous wives cannot let their husbands be until they force them to forget shame, modesty, and equity. For although the avarice of men also is insatiable, yet women are apt to be much more precipitate. The more carefully ought husbands to be on their guard against being set as it were on flame by the blast of such importunate entreaty.

Question: Are there no ambitious and covetous wives? Are not ambitious and covetous wives just as described? Is not the description of the natural disposition of women just as described?

The quote in its context:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom07.xviii.ii.html?bcb=right

 

[Shortandy]

Well, I guess you live in a world without women huh? If you don't, show them your attitude and I can guarantee you they will adjust it right quickly.

My attitude? Ok so I have an attitude because I am asking you to use the Bible not opinion or culture. I see:thumbs:

 

[Shortandy]

Yes there is. Women was made to be a helper to man - the same exact word that is then used to describe the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Spirit is only to serve us? That's unbiblical. If it doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is only to serve us then I think "help meet" has a much richer meaning than that too.

The Spirit was submissive as was Christ to the will of the Father, as a wife is to me to her husband (Ephesians 5). A wife is a helper that is true, but a helper out of submission.

 

[Peggy]

Question: Are there no ambitious and covetous wives? Are not ambitious and covetous wives just as described? Is not the description of the natural disposition of women just as described?

Are there no ambitious and covetous husbands? Are not ambitious and covetous husbands just as numerous? Is not the description of the natural disposition of men as just described?

Sin is sin. Let's not try to pretend men are perfect and women are horrible sinful creatures who have to be dominated by their husbands in order to keep them in line.

The beliefs of some people on this board really makes me question if I want to continue in the Baptist faith if this represents a widespread attitude towards women.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Question: Are there no ambitious and covetous wives? Are not ambitious and covetous wives just as described? Is not the description of the natural disposition of women just as described?

Now see you crossed the line from some women to all women with your last sentence. So did Calvin IMO. I am NOT more apt to push my husband into sin than he is to push himself. This is the same sort of thinking that Adam tried: "Well this woman...."

God, while fully recognizing the sin of the woman, didn't accept that excuse either! Men have no one but themselves to blame for their own sin.

The beliefs of some people on this board really makes me question if I want to continue in the Baptist faith if this represents a widespread attitude towards women.

Now Peggy, don't take this conversation too seriously. Just because Aaron has set himself up to defend the position that men are the head of the woman because woman is less able to keep herself from sin, doesn't mean he actually believes that way or treats his wife with any disrepect.

Nor is he treating me disrespectfully. We are merely debating two opposing posititions in order to better understand where such beliefs got their start, why God allowed such to continue and what we can learn from them today in order to better glorify God and and be salt and light to the world.

We do get into heated conversations here, but most of us longtime members know and respect each other well. Now, some of the newer members, aren't so nice, but they either won't last long here or we'll get trained in board etiquitte before too long.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Aaron I looked for the souce of the Calvin quote and couldn't find it. Going to look through your link now.

 

[annsni]

The Spirit was submissive as was Christ to the will of the Father, as a wife is to me to her husband (Ephesians 5). A wife is a helper that is true, but a helper out of submission.

But we're not talking about the Spirit in relation to Christ but the Spirit in relation to man, or God's relation to man:

Psalm 33:20 "Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he [is] our help and our shield."

Psalm 70:5 "But I [am] poor and needy: make haste unto me, O God: thou [art] my help and my deliverer; O LORD, make no tarrying."

Psalm 121:1-2 "[[A Song of degrees.]] I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help. My help [cometh] from the LORD, which made heaven and earth."

Hosea 13:9 "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me [is] thine help."

So God is helping man in submission to him? Sorry - not Biblical.

 

[annsni]

My attitude? Ok so I have an attitude because I am asking you to use the Bible not opinion or culture. I see:thumbs:

Yet you haven't used the Bible to show me that a woman who works outside of the house isn't busy at home too, have you?

However we read in Proverbs 31 that the woman was busy at home AND outside of her home.

10[d] An excellent wife who can find?
She is far more precious than jewels.
11The heart of her husband trusts in her,
and he will have no lack of gain.
12She does him good, and not harm,
all the days of her life.
13She seeks wool and flax, **outside of the home is where we seek**
and works with willing hands. **working at home most likely**
14She is like the ships of the merchant;
she brings her food from afar. **hard to bring from afar from inside your house without the internet**
15She rises while it is yet night
and provides food for her household
and portions for her maidens. **most likely inside the home**
16She considers a field and buys it; **outside the home**
with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard. **outside the home**
17She dresses herself[e] with strength
and makes her arms strong.
18She perceives that her merchandise is profitable.
Her lamp does not go out at night.
19She puts her hands to the distaff,
and her hands hold the spindle. **most likely at home**
20She opens her hand to the poor
and reaches out her hands to the needy. **possibly from home**
21She is not afraid of snow for her household,
for all her household are clothed in scarlet.[f]
22She makes bed coverings for herself; **most likely home**
her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23Her husband is known in the gates
when he sits among the elders of the land.
24She makes linen garments and sells them; **sells them from home or outside, we don't know**
she delivers sashes to the merchant. **definitely outside the home**
25 Strength and dignity are her clothing,
and she laughs at the time to come.
26She opens her mouth with wisdom,
and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.
27She looks well to the ways of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness. **she is busy at home and out**
28Her children rise up and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29"Many women have done excellently,
but you surpass them all."
30 Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain,
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
31Give her of the fruit of her hands,
and let her works praise her in the gates.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Considering women leaving their God ordained duties of keepers at home and entering the workplace creating loss of jobs for breadwinners (men), children being raised with gender identification problems, divorce and adultery, etc... has it really been worth it as a whole for our society?

I'm in my 60's and my mother worked outside of the home as well as most of my friends mothers. My wife was able to stay at home and work full time with the children and I think that is best in most cases, but women have been working outside of the home for years.

My mother started working out side the home while WWII was going on and my father was in Europe fighting and after the war she kept working.
Before the war she did seamstress work for local folks as well as taking in washing and ironing. Women have been working for a long time.

 

[menageriekeeper]

The quote: Ambitious and covetous wives cannot let their husbands be until they force them to forget shame, modesty, and equity. For although the avarice of men also is insatiable, yet women are apt to be much more precipitate. The more carefully ought husbands to be on their guard against being set as it were on flame by the blast of such importunate entreaty.

Question: Are there no ambitious and covetous wives? Are not ambitious and covetous wives just as described? Is not the description of the natural disposition of women just as described?

The quote in its context:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calc...html?bcb=right

Aaron! The context makes it even worse!

From the link:

But here another question arises, How did Caleb presume to bargain concerning his daughter until he was made acquainted with her inclinations? 146146 If we are to indulge in conjectures on the subject, this question might be answered by another, How do we know that Caleb had not consulted her inclinations, and instead of resting satisfied with the vague imaginings here ascribed to him, actually obtained her consent to the proposal which he was about to make? It may not have been, as Calvin supposes, a sudden thought which struck him in the heat of battle, but a calm resolve formed before he set out on his expedition against Debir, and intended to reward the most valiant of those who had assisted him in his war against the giants. And it is even not impossible that both he and his daughter, to whom Othniel, from his near relationship, must have been well known, had no doubt from the prowess he had previously exhibited, that he would outstrip all his competitors and carry off the prize. These, of course, are mere conjectures, but they are at least as plausible as those indulged in by other expositors, who, after raising the question, appear to have given themselves much unnecessary trouble in attempting to solve it. — Ed. Although it is the office of parents to settle their daughters in life, they are not permitted to exercise tyrannical power and assign them to whatever husbands they think fit without consulting them. For while all contracts ought to be voluntary, freedom ought to prevail especially in marriage that no one may pledge his faith against his will. But Caleb was probably influenced by the belief that his daughter would willingly give her consent, as she could not modestly reject such honorable terms; 147147...

Now this is okay. Calvin affirms that no man ought to force his daughter into marriage against her will.

Too bad this next part reflects traditions of man that have been attibuted to God:

18. And it came to pass as she came unto him, etc Although we may conjecture that the damsel Acsa was of excellent morals and well brought up, as marriage with her had been held forth as the special reward 149149 French, “Pour un salaire exquis et precieux;” “As an exquisite and precious recompense.” — Ed. of victory, yet perverse cupidity on her part is here disclosed. She knew that by the divine law women were specially excluded from hereditary lands, but she nevertheless covets the possession of them, and stimulates her husband by unjust expostulation. In this way ambitious and covetous wives cease not to molest their husbands until they force them to forget shame, modesty, and equity. For although the avarice of men also is insatiable, yet women are apt to be much more precipitate. The more carefully ought husbands to be on their guard against being set as it were on flame by the blast of such importunate counsels. 150150 Latin, “Foeminae tamen magis praecipites feruntur.” French, “Les femmes sont beaucoup plus bouillantes, et se laissent transporter plus aisement. Et d’autant plus sogneusement les maris se doyvent donner garde, de peur que par leurs conseils importuns, qui sont comme des soufflets, ils ne soyent embrasez;” “Women are much more fervid, and allow themselves to be more easily carried away. And so much the more carefully should husbands be on their guard, lest by their importunate counsels, which are like bellows, they be blown into flame.” — Ed.

What divine right?? Hmmm? Where did God specifically say daughters could not inherit? Just because the Bible follows a patriachal path, doesnt' mean that God set that up. Rather God worked within the confines of the culture.

And just because Asca got together with her husband and asked Caleb for the particular peice of land she wanted to live on, knowing all the time it would pass on through her husband and sons rather than to her and her daughters, doesn't mean she was asking for something sinful! And I don't believe the scripture suggests anything of the sort. I believe this was simply an aside to explain how a particular peice of land ended up belonging to who it did. (sort of a Bibilcal title policy. lol )

So, what divine right? Where does Calvin get his idea that property ownership must always pass from father to son, even though we no longer live under the Law?

 

[donnA]

he doesn't care what the bible actually says, he makes it say what he wants, always has.

 

[Shortandy]

Yet you haven't used the Bible to show me that a woman who works outside of the house isn't busy at home too, have you?

However we read in Proverbs 31 that the woman was busy at home AND outside of her home.

10[d] An excellent wife who can find?
She is far more precious than jewels.
11The heart of her husband trusts in her,
and he will have no lack of gain.
12She does him good, and not harm,
all the days of her life.
13She seeks wool and flax, **outside of the home is where we seek**
and works with willing hands. **working at home most likely**
14She is like the ships of the merchant;
she brings her food from afar. **hard to bring from afar from inside your house without the internet**
15She rises while it is yet night
and provides food for her household
and portions for her maidens. **most likely inside the home**
16She considers a field and buys it; **outside the home**
with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard. **outside the home**
17She dresses herself[e] with strength
and makes her arms strong.
18She perceives that her merchandise is profitable.
Her lamp does not go out at night.
19She puts her hands to the distaff,
and her hands hold the spindle. **most likely at home**
20She opens her hand to the poor
and reaches out her hands to the needy. **possibly from home**
21She is not afraid of snow for her household,
for all her household are clothed in scarlet.[f]
22She makes bed coverings for herself; **most likely home**
her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23Her husband is known in the gates
when he sits among the elders of the land.
24She makes linen garments and sells them; **sells them from home or outside, we don't know**
she delivers sashes to the merchant. **definitely outside the home**
25 Strength and dignity are her clothing,
and she laughs at the time to come.
26She opens her mouth with wisdom,
and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.
27She looks well to the ways of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness. **she is busy at home and out**
28Her children rise up and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
29"Many women have done excellently,
but you surpass them all."
30 Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain,
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
31Give her of the fruit of her hands,
and let her works praise her in the gates.

Titus 2 puts a specific location on the work and duties of a woman does it not? Proverbs 31 not so much. So we are left with 2 options....speak in the places scripture speaks or try to fill in the gaps with our logic. Look at you post! Things like "most likely" or "or possibly". There passages that you are sure are outside the home still do very little to support a 5 day work week. Proverbs 31 compared to Titus 2 makes a stronger case for home than it does for outside the home. That is all I wanted to challenge you on. No deed for the comments about attitude...I never said anything to cause such emotion. I simply asked questions.

 

[annsni]

Titus 2 puts a specific location on the work and duties of a woman does it not? Proverbs 31 not so much. So we are left with 2 options....speak in the places scripture speaks or try to fill in the gaps with our logic. Look at you post! Things like "most likely" or "or possibly". There passages that you are sure are outside the home still do very little to support a 5 day work week. Proverbs 31 compared to Titus 2 makes a stronger case for home than it does for outside the home. That is all I wanted to challenge you on. No deed for the comments about attitude...I never said anything to cause such emotion. I simply asked questions.

Titus 2 speaks of women being "keepers of their own home". The vast majority of women do this whether they work or not.

As for the Proverbs 31 example, I WILL look at my post - maybe you missed these parts:

She seeks wool and flax,
she brings her food from afar.
She considers a field and buys it
with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard
She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers sashes to the merchants

Not one of these things are done from inside the home. Each one must be done outside.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Now Ann.

She seeks wool and flax, internet
she brings her food from afar. internet
She considers a field and buys it internet
with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard would that be like "farmville" on facebook?
She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers sashes to the merchants UPS!

See, we can do it all from home! :laugh:

ShortAndy, I can keep my house just fine, whether or not I happen to be working. Nothing about being a keeper at home (or house keeper lol) means that I shouldn't work. Nice thought though. I really like the idea of my husband being fully responsible for providing me with all the money I manage to spend around here.

 

[annsni]

Now Ann.

She seeks wool and flax, internet
she brings her food from afar. internet
She considers a field and buys it internet
with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard would that be like "farmville" on facebook?
She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers sashes to the merchants UPS!

See, we can do it all from home! :laugh:

Yep but in the first century and before? Not so much. LOL

ShortAndy, I can keep my house just fine, whether or not I happen to be working. Nothing about being a keeper at home (or house keeper lol) means that I shouldn't work. Nice thought though. I really like the idea of my husband being fully responsible for providing me with all the money I manage to spend around here.

LOL - So true. It would be nice for me to be able to stay at home and just relax. I mean if the kids were all in school, I'd have tons of time to do all sorts of fun things! I could make my own clothes (once I learned how), fix the car (once I learned how), redecorate (oh, I can't because we can't afford it with me not working....wait - we can't afford it anyway). I could also then not be supporting my husband in ministry and letting him do all of the website work on his own or for him to find someone else to do it. Let someone else do study for him for the church plant. Yeah, I think I'd love to not work outside of the home.

 

[Cutter]

...I never said anything to cause such emotion. I simply asked questions.

I feel your pain Shortandy. You don't have to say anything. Women are just emotional types. That's why they do not need to be involved in political matters either. You see how America has suffered because of it.

 

[menageriekeeper]

You know Ann, I feel your pain. Men are just emotional types with no sense of humor. That's why they are losing their jobs and they don't need to be involved in political matters either. You see how America has suffered because of it.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Shortandy]

Titus 2 speaks of women being "keepers of their own home". The vast majority of women do this whether they work or not.

As for the Proverbs 31 example, I WILL look at my post - maybe you missed these parts:

She seeks wool and flax,
she brings her food from afar.
She considers a field and buys it
with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard
She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers sashes to the merchants

Not one of these things are done from inside the home. Each one must be done outside.

I saw your points but I do not think they are as valid as you believe them to be. What you are doing is assuming things that are not clearly presented in the text. I will admit that this woman is doing somethings outside of the home but there is nothing in the text of Proverbs 31 that even insinuates that she is doing what many women today are doing (working 40 hour work weeks outside the home). Yet Titus 2 seems to be clear that the majority of the woman's time is to be in or at the home. I believe this creates a problem for your position. If more time is spent outside the home, away from the kids than is spent working...how is a woman being obedient to Titus 2? There has yet to be an answer to that question and it is one I really would like to hear on this particular topic, especially from the women.

 

[Shortandy]

I feel your pain Shortandy. You don't have to say anything. Women are just emotional types. That's why they do not need to be involved in political matters either. You see how America has suffered because of it.

While I appreciate your encouragement I must admit that I am not sure you and I are on the same team either. The reason I am asking the questions I am asking and reading everyone's post is to help formulate my position.