women preachers/pastors....biblical or not?

[delizzle]

I agree, poor hermeneutics leads to bad doctrine and practice. What are your thoughts on the passage?

I also know that scripture says we will know them by their fruits. I know many female pastors who have brought many to Christ and have produced much fruit. We also see examples where God used women to accomplish very noble tasks.

 

[JonShaff]

I also know that scripture says we will know them by their fruits. I know many female pastors who have brought many to Christ and have produced much fruit. We also see examples where God used women to accomplish very noble tasks.

Do you want to be "Pragmatic" concerning obedience to God's Word? In other words, just because it produces "positive" results, we should seek to employ a particular strategy, even if it violates God's Word?

 

[JonShaff]

I also know that scripture says we will know them by their fruits. I know many female pastors who have brought many to Christ and have produced much fruit. We also see examples where God used women to accomplish very noble tasks.

And of course God desires to use women to accomplish His will, but that is not the subject of this debate. It is whether or not the Scriptures teach that Women should be Overseers of the Church of God, equipping men and women for the Work of the Ministry.

 

[delizzle]

Do you want to be "Pragmatic" concerning obedience to God's Word? In other words, just because it produces "positive" results, we should seek to employ a particular strategy, even if it violates God's Word?

Assuming that it is a command intended for everyone at all times. What biblical evidence is there to prove that the command extends beyond the women in Ephesus in the 1st century?

 

[delizzle]

And of course God desires to use women to accomplish His will, but that is not the subject of this debate. It is whether or not the Scriptures teach that Women should be Overseers of the Church of God, equipping men and women for the Work of the Ministry.

Does that mean that women should not be seminary professors too? Or is this only applied to pastors?

 

[JonShaff]

Assuming that it is a command intended for everyone at all times. What biblical evidence is there to prove that the command extends beyond the women in Ephesus in the 1st century?

The onus is on you my friend to show that it does not. Now, we can look at the canonical context, book context, etc. and do our homework to prove or disprove, but it is evidently clear that God has called Men to Oversee/Teach/Equip His body for the Work of the Ministry. God called Moses, the Prophets, the Kings, The Apostles, etc. etc. to be overseers His people. Do we have exceptions? Yes, but they are the exception and not the rule. It is not normative for God to use women to equip and lead the men and women of God. Usually, when it has happened, it's a result of God's judgment on His people.

 

[JonShaff]

And when Paul addressed the women, that they should be "saved" through Childbearing, did it ever cross your mind that women have a wonderful, super important position as being the "overseer" of their Children? In 21st Century Gentile Western Christianity, we hate kids and neglect our duty to evangelize and equip them (yes our own). So, of course this passage is demoted to something less than desirable.

 

[HankD]

Seminary professors - Technically its OK - not a church venue.

Church - No. In fact even to teach children and other women if we isolate the passage to not being allowed to speak in church.
So children and other women therefor must be tutored outside the church surroundings by knowledgeable women.

I believe we intuitively know at each local church what the limitations are.

How about women missionaries?
Actually I enjoy hearing from them (single or married) when they come to the church and give their report.

HankD

 

[delizzle]

The onus is on you my friend to show that it does not. Now, we can look at the canonical context, book context, etc. and do our homework to prove or disprove, but it is evidently clear that God has called Men to Oversee/Teach/Equip His body for the Work of the Ministry. God called Moses, the Prophets, the Kings, The Apostles, etc. etc. to be overseers His people. Do we have exceptions? Yes, but they are the exception and not the rule. It is not normative for God to use women to equip and lead the men and women of God. Usually, when it has happened, it's a result of God's judgment on His people.

As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer
1 Timothy 1:3 NIV


So, are women saved by childbearing? Yes or no.

 

[JonShaff]

As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer
1 Timothy 1:3 NIV


So, are women saved by childbearing? Yes or no.

To be honest, i'm not sure what you are asking here?

Yes, Women are Saved through Childbearing...context says they are "matured and used of God through discipling their Children."

 

[church mouse guy]

The Levitical priesthood excluded women. I think that women preachers are mostly found first in Pentecostal denominations. I never listen to women preachers and I do not want to attend or to visit a church or a denomination with a woman preacher. I would run, not walk, for the nearest exit. And I wouldn't give them a penny.

 

[delizzle]

To be honest, i'm not sure what you are asking here?

Yes, Women are Saved through Childbearing...context says they are "matured and used of God through discipling their Children."

Where does it say that?

 

[JonShaff]

Where does it say that?

Several Commentaries include this... 1 Timothy 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
But also, the context of the passage...

vs. 15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in (through) childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Context is speaking of the maturation of the Women--Salvation in the sense of "Sanctification". They are being saved from the power of sin, as they walk in a manner that is becoming of the Gospel as well as fulfilling their duties as a Mother.

1 Tim. 2:9-10
in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

And this may sound insensitive, but i'm not trying to be, but the women of God that i've noticed who do not mature as they ought, are the same ones neglecting their responsibility to disciple their children.

 

[delizzle]

Several Commentaries include this... 1 Timothy 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
But also, the context of the passage...

vs. 15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in (through) childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Context is speaking of the maturation of the Women--Salvation in the sense of "Sanctification". They are being saved from the power of sin, as they walk in a manner that is becoming of the Gospel as well as fulfilling their duties as a Mother.

1 Tim. 2:9-10
in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.

Although it is on the right track, I don't quite agree with that commentary. Being "saved" does not always equal "salvation". The previous verses were describing women being deceived by Satan. Raising children can keep women busy just enough that they won't have time to be deceived. They will be saved from temptation and deception through childbearing. In the same way, men tend to "settle down" after the get the ol' "ball-n-chain". In these situations, they are similarly saved from the temptations of the bachelor life.

My only point is that scripture is not always as clear as it is assumed at face value.

 

[JonShaff]

Although it is on the right track, I don't quite agree with that commentary. Being "saved" does not always equal "salvation". The previous verses were describing women being deceived by Satan. Raising children can keep women busy just enough that they won't have time to be deceived. They will be saved from temptation and deception through childbearing. In the same way, men tend to "settle down" after the get the ol' "ball-n-chain". In these situations, they are similarly saved from the temptations of the bachelor life.

My only point is that scripture is not always as clear as it is assumed at face value.

To the which, i agree with you (although, i don't agree with some of the terms you use ). As women are searching the Scriptures for themselves, learning from their Husband, learning from the overseers, Learning from the older women (Titus 2), they are teaching their children daily (Deut. 6). And as they are teaching they are learning and as they are learning they are teaching.

 

[One Baptism]

1 Timothy 3, in regards both Elders/Bishops [what we commonly call 'Pastor' these days, or 'Parson', days of yore], and Deacons, deal specifically with the authority invested in the respective "offices" [1 Timothy 3:1,10,13 KJB], which are specific positions of "authority" and "rule[ership]" [vss 4,5,12], first in the very seed of the church, which is the very home garden-school [vss 5,12], and then in the greater body/church after; and Paul, inspired of the Holy Spirit, connects not only the offices within the church of the living God at home to the greater, but so also salvation, called the "mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh" [vss 15-16] together.

We have already shown the meaning of the "covering" for women here:

Orthodox Scholars Reaffirm Theological Validity of Women Deacons

We have also seen that the text is clearly instruction, in regards who among the male population of believers could obtain to such offices; for they had to meet specific qualifications [and yes, if they were not married, they should step down from the office]:

Orthodox Scholars Reaffirm Theological Validity of Women Deacons

And moreso in the following as well - Orthodox Scholars Reaffirm Theological Validity of Women Deacons

None of the texts in either 1 Timothy 2 or 3 prohibit women from preaching or teaching, in the proper sphere. It simply forbids the women from usurpation of the "office", "authority" and "rule" of the God-ordained position of the Male, the Husband, the Priest of the Household & Church of the living God.

In scripture, OT and NT, there were women who preached and taught, even in a publick arena, though moreso in the garden-home-school-circle. There were women prophet[esses], and at least one judge, several Queens, disciples, teachers, etc, to name a few:

[01] Deborah, the wife of Lapidoth [a "mother in Israel", judging over a people, prophetess]

[02] Miriam, Aaron and Moses' sister [prophetess]

[03] Huldah [prophetess]

[04] Isaiah's Wife [prophetess]

[05] Esther [Queen]

[06] Mary Magdalene [and others who served and shared the message about the resurrection]

[07] Anna of the court of the Temple, the daughter of Phanuel [prophetess]

[08] Elizabeth [John the Baptist's mother, a daughter of Aaron]

[09] The 4 Daughters of Philip the Evangelist [prophetesses]

[10] Priscilla the wife of Aquila

[11] Phebe, the servant [diakonon, not Office of "Deacon" as modernized liberal texts falsely state]

[12] Queen of Sheba [came to hear the wisdom of Solomon to share in her own country]

[13] Lydia [business woman, seller of purple, see also Proverbs 31:16, see also "great woman", in 2 Kings 4:8]

[14] Mother of Lemuel [see Proverbs 31, instruction of Mother to Son, Queen to Prince]

[15] wise women throughout [see 2 Samuel 20:16,22, etc, going unto "all the people in her wisdom"]

[16] the woman [samaritan] at the well [John 4, went back and brought people to Jesus and told them about Jesus]

[17] New Jerusalem above which is the "mother of us all" [ie. the Heavenly Council, under God]

[18] the little girl who told Naaman about the prophet

etc.​

There is of course a counterfeit to this, in regards women in scripture [KJB], since there are those women, possesed of devils who also teach, preach, etc, and exalt themselves to a position; just to name a few:

[01] Jezebel [OT, and the greater NT system, Revelation 2, 17, etc]

[02] Great Whore [who 'teacheth', and 'calleth herself a prophetess], see Revelation 2, 17, etc]

[03] Athaliah [Queen]

[04] certain damsel who was a grief to Paul [Acts 16]

[05] Miriam, sister to Moses and Aaron, when she sought a position of authority not for her

[06] Herodias [and Salome, Queen and Princess]

[07] the witch of En Dor [a medium with a familiar spirit, a false message from Satan; 1 Samuel 28]

etc.​

 

[annsni]

If they have a woman pastor they have left conservatism.

I do agree on that but I'm kind of talking about the absolute polar ends so these would be on this half of the spectrum but certainly not near where it should be. They would be conservative in most other areas except this.

 

[One Baptism]

Moreso, Jesus is the example for every Christian [1 Peter 2:21 KJB], in the basics:

[1] Preaching

[2] Teaching

[3] Healing

[4] Publishing​

All Christians, male/female, jew/gentile, free/bond are to do these in their various spheres; though not all have the same "offices", "authority", "rule[ership]" [for instance Christ Jesus is our Head, we cannot ever be such a head, we as the church are the woman, the wife, the body of Christ, just as the man/husband/priest/elder/deacon is Head over the woman/wife]:

Matthew 4:23 KJB - And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 9:35 KJB - And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

1 Corinthians 12:28 KJB - And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11 KJB - And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Titus 2:3 KJB - The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

1 Corinthians 12:9 KJB - To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Psalms 68:11 KJB - The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.

Mark 13:10 KJB - And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

Mark 5:20 KJB - And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.

Luke 8:39 KJB - Return to thine own house, and shew how great things God hath done unto thee. And he went his way, and published throughout the whole city how great things Jesus had done unto him.

Acts 10:37 KJB - That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

Acts 13:49 KJB - And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.​

 

[One Baptism]

There is also a greater understanding, in regards the everlasting gospel, in the aspect of a "woman" being "saved" through "childbearing".

The greater "woman" is the people of God [Ephesians 5; Revelation 12, etc], and the "child" that she is to "bear" is Christ Jesus in the inward heart, hence Christ in us the hope of glory. The "woman" was not only to receive and bear the "seed" in history [as given by prophecy], but also in character herself, in the heart/mind. Each of us individually are a member of that great body of this woman, and each of us is to receive the "seed" into the heart, where it is to be fed/watered of God, by the Holy Spirit and the word, and thus grow up into a tree of life, as like unto Jesus [we are not actually Christ Jesus, but we are Christians, wherein those not saved, see Christ in us, by the character, life, etc].

Christians are going through such labor pangs right now, to see whether they will truly give birth to the Christian character or to another, a dead character, a still born existence, and aborted experience.

Even the second Advent is likened by this process. The whole world is in such labor pangs, and the Head, Christ Jesus, is about to burst through the clouds in all glory ...

It also deals with the "woman" [the people of God, Jesus' bride] raising up "seed", baby Christians within the fold, etc. As the woman takes up her God-given responsibility, she is saved by doing the very work, in/by faith, entrusted to her, for it works upon her [our] own character.

There is a great depth in the words of 1 Timothy 2:15 that many look past, and I have only briefly touched on it here, and may elaborate more later in detail.

 

[ChrisTheSaved]

Does that mean that women should not be seminary professors too? Or is this only applied to pastors?

How about 1 Cor 14:34-35?

Now that's two examples to different churches.