women preachers/pastors....biblical or not?

[delizzle]

How about 1 Cor 14:34-35?

Now that's two examples to different churches.

Ok. So do you forbid women to speak in your church? Are they forbidden to ask questions. The passage clearly says that they should only ask their husband questions at home. Do you have any women on the worship team. I hope not. What about in children's ministry?

 

[ChrisTheSaved]

I also know that scripture says we will know them by their fruits. I know many female pastors who have brought many to Christ and have produced much fruit. We also see examples where God used women to accomplish very noble tasks.

So we are going to ignore clear commands in the Bible? There is no way around this. What's next the letter to the Romans was not really to us so it doesn't apply?

 

[ChrisTheSaved]

Ok. So do you forbid women to speak in your church? Are they forbidden to ask questions. The passage clearly says that they should only ask their husband questions at home. Do you have any women on the worship team. I hope not. What about in children's ministry?

Yes we obey the Bible. Ladies should not talk in church. It doesn't matter how much you don't like it, it's Biblical. They can ask questions before and after or at home. My wife knows more scripture and has brought more souls to Christ then most men, she obeys the Bible though and knows the role she's plays. She is a servant of the church.

Women can clearly teach women and other children. You're going all straw man on me.

 

[delizzle]

So we are going to ignore clear commands in the Bible? There is no way around this. What's next the letter to the Romans was not really to us so it doesn't apply?

Is women being forbidden to speak or even ask a question in church a clear command?

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 14:34‭-‬35 NIV

So unless your church actually enforces this standard and demands that all women should remain silent in church, you cannot tell me woman cannot be pastors.

 

[delizzle]

Yes we obey the Bible. Ladies should not talk in church. It doesn't matter how much you don't like it, it's Biblical. They can ask questions before and after or at home. My wife knows more scripture and has brought more souls to Christ then most men, she obeys the Bible though and knows the role she's plays. She is a servant of the church.

Women can clearly teach women and other children. You're going all straw man on me.

Not necessarily a straw men. How can they sing or teach children if they are forbidden to speak? Sign language?

 

[ChrisTheSaved]

Is women being forbidden to speak or even ask a question in church a clear command?

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 14:34‭-‬35 NIV

So unless your church actually enforces this standard and demands that all women should remain silent in church, you cannot tell me woman cannot be pastors.

Ladies can talk anytime other then when the pastor is talking or another man is teaching. Of course the same respect should be giving any time anyone is speaking/ teaching. Considering the church this was written to was in a home, church is probably referring to the time service only i.e. when the pastor is talking.

I don't see the logic in your post though? If we don't do this then women should get to preach? Well I must say a truly Godly women would not want to preach, she would want to follow a Biblical role.

I'm sorry this is a very clear command, this is used in more than one place to two different churches.

 

[ChrisTheSaved]

Not necessarily a straw men. How can they sing or teach children if they are forbidden to speak? Sign language?

More non-sense. Churches at this time were in homes, so when the pastor wasn't preaching it was not a church. So the same goes now, ladies can talk in the nursery, kitchen and other places...just not while men are talking and teaching. Have you read a Bible? Ladies are told to teach, there are just a few rules.

Titus 2:3:5
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

 

[delizzle]

More non-sense. Churches at this time were in homes, so when the pastor wasn't preaching it was not a church. So the same goes now, ladies can talk in the nursery, kitchen and other places...just not while men are talking and teaching. Have you read a Bible? Ladies are told to teach, there are just a few rules.

Titus 2:3:5
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
1 Corinthians 14:34 NIV

WHAT IS THE LAW THAT WE NOW MUST OBEY? AND WHY MUST WE FOLLOW THIS PARTICULAR LAW AND NOT THE REST?

 

[Reynolds]

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
1 Corinthians 14:34 NIV

WHAT IS THE LAW THAT WE NOW MUST OBEY? AND WHY MUST WE FOLLOW THIS PARTICULAR LAW AND NOT THE REST?

Gen 3:16
Why do you have to follow it? We will make it easy. Paul, at the inspiration of The Holy Spirit, said you had to.

 

[delizzle]

Gen 3:16
Why do you have to follow it? We will make it easy. Paul, at the inspiration of The Holy Spirit, said you had to.

Do you eat she'll fish or mix fabrics? When was the last burnt offering you performed?

 

[ChrisTheSaved]

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
1 Corinthians 14:34 NIV

WHAT IS THE LAW THAT WE NOW MUST OBEY? AND WHY MUST WE FOLLOW THIS PARTICULAR LAW AND NOT THE REST?

Gen 3:16

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

 

[Reynolds]

Do you eat she'll fish or mix fabrics? When was the last burnt offering you performed?

You asked. I gave you a simple answer. This is one area of the law that the N.T. plainly states is to be followed in The New Covenant. Argue with Paul.He said it. I didn't. Save yourself the trouble of going off on the ceremonial, sacrificial, and dietary rant.

 

[thatbrian]

If you've ever seen a marriage in which the woman rules that man, it is the most unnatural and pitiful sight. . .

When God's design is ignored, disintegration takes place.

 

[delizzle]

You asked. I gave you a simple answer. This is one area of the law that the N.T. plainly states is to be followed in The New Covenant. Argue with Paul.He said it. I didn't. Save yourself the trouble of going off on the ceremonial, sacrificial, and dietary rant.

The Corinthian text addresses women keeping silent in the church meetings. Perhaps the most obvious point in this passage is that it does not even refer to who is leading the service, but only to those who are in the congregation. The silence of women on such occasions is a carryover from the synagogue, and it was a sign of "reverence" not limitation. Moreover, the culture of the time looked askance at women who spoke in public in ways that could be perceived as disruptive. In extreme cases, their morality would even be called into question.

The point for us in the Corinthian text is that it simply does not address the issue of women in leadership, much less ordination. It is not a text that even applies to the topic in question, because it refers only to what women should do in the audience. Nothing is said of what they may (or may not) do up front.

The passage in 1 Timothy is the second passage cited by those who oppose the ordination of women. At face value, it appears to be an open-and-shut case against women's ordination because Paul says clearly, "I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man" (2:12). However, it is wrong to make this a blanket statement, for to do so would cause Paul to contradict himself. He spoke approvingly of women ministering publicly in 1 Corinthians 11:5. He commended Euodia and Synteche for their labor in the gospel (Philippians 4:3), and he held Lois and Eunice in highest honor (2 Timothy 1:5).

So, what does the passage in 1 Timothy really mean if it is not a wholesale prohibition? It appears that what Paul was forbidding was women ministering "independently" — this is, "having authority" over men. The early church was barely thirty years old when Paul wrote this passage, and in some places the congregations were even younger. In that length of time, women had not yet risen to roles of leadership as quickly as men. This was not discrimination or prohibition as much as it was a reference to current reality. So, what Paul resisted was a woman "running ahead" of the development of the church at that time and presuming a role of "authority" not yet universalized in the Body of Christ.

But the seeds of change had been sown, and sown by Paul himself, who was already charting the course for the Christian church, different from Judaism and Greco-Roman culture. He was declaring the shift when he wrote revolutionary words in Galatians 3:28: "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." This is the principle that would revolutionize the church and lay the foundation for the ordination of women. It is against this transformational passage that we ultimately interpret our affirmation.

Commentary: The Ordination of Women – The United Methodist Church

 

[delizzle]

If you've ever seen a marriage in which the woman rules that man, it is the most unnatural and pitiful sight. . .

When God's design is ignored, disintegration takes place.

The best marriages I have seen where neither "owns" the other.

 

[Jerome]

In Romans chapter sixteen Paul commends Priscilla and Aquila:

"Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. Likewise greet the church that is in their house."

Spurgeon observes:

"He named Priscilla first, because she was first in energy of character and attainments in grace. There is a precedence which, in Christ, is due to the woman when she becomes the leader in devotion, and manifests the stronger mind in the things of God. It is well when nature and grace both authorize our saying, 'Aquila and Priscilla,' but it is not amiss when grace outruns nature, and we hear of, 'Priscilla and Aquila.'"

 

[thatbrian]

The best marriages I have seen where neither "owns" the other.

Firstly, who has said anything about owning anyone? Secondly, in marriage both parties have ownership of the other. "For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does." (1 Corinthians 7:4)

Finally, do you believe that Christ is the head of the Church? He certainly is, and if He is, then the same text that say such also tells us that the husband is the head of his wife.

 

[Reynolds]

The Corinthian text addresses women keeping silent in the church meetings. Perhaps the most obvious point in this passage is that it does not even refer to who is leading the service, but only to those who are in the congregation. The silence of women on such occasions is a carryover from the synagogue, and it was a sign of "reverence" not limitation. Moreover, the culture of the time looked askance at women who spoke in public in ways that could be perceived as disruptive. In extreme cases, their morality would even be called into question.

The point for us in the Corinthian text is that it simply does not address the issue of women in leadership, much less ordination. It is not a text that even applies to the topic in question, because it refers only to what women should do in the audience. Nothing is said of what they may (or may not) do up front.

The passage in 1 Timothy is the second passage cited by those who oppose the ordination of women. At face value, it appears to be an open-and-shut case against women's ordination because Paul says clearly, "I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man" (2:12). However, it is wrong to make this a blanket statement, for to do so would cause Paul to contradict himself. He spoke approvingly of women ministering publicly in 1 Corinthians 11:5. He commended Euodia and Synteche for their labor in the gospel (Philippians 4:3), and he held Lois and Eunice in highest honor (2 Timothy 1:5).

So, what does the passage in 1 Timothy really mean if it is not a wholesale prohibition? It appears that what Paul was forbidding was women ministering "independently" — this is, "having authority" over men. The early church was barely thirty years old when Paul wrote this passage, and in some places the congregations were even younger. In that length of time, women had not yet risen to roles of leadership as quickly as men. This was not discrimination or prohibition as much as it was a reference to current reality. So, what Paul resisted was a woman "running ahead" of the development of the church at that time and presuming a role of "authority" not yet universalized in the Body of Christ.

But the seeds of change had been sown, and sown by Paul himself, who was already charting the course for the Christian church, different from Judaism and Greco-Roman culture. He was declaring the shift when he wrote revolutionary words in Galatians 3:28: "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." This is the principle that would revolutionize the church and lay the foundation for the ordination of women. It is against this transformational passage that we ultimately interpret our affirmation.

Commentary: The Ordination of Women – The United Methodist Church

Keep on twisting scripture. I honestly place no value in the worldly opinion of the UMC. They marry homosexuals and ordain homosexuals. You going to rely on them for your theology?

Paul could not have been more plain.

 

[delizzle]

Keep on twisting scripture. I honestly place no value in the worldly opinion of the UMC. They marry homosexuals and ordain homosexuals. You going to rely on them for your theology?

Paul could not have been more plain.

That is a good point.

 

[delizzle]

Firstly, who has said anything about owning anyone? Secondly, in marriage both parties have ownership of the other. "For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does." (1 Corinthians 7:4)

Finally, do you believe that Christ is the head of the Church? He certainly is, and if He is, then the same text that say such also tells us that the husband is the head of his wife.

You are correct. You never said anything about owning. That was my mistake.