"Women's roles in the church"

[HankD]

If anyone goes back to my post #49 which caused this debate between Reynolds and I you will see I am talking arbitrarily.

As I clearly indicated men and women have different leadership roles in the church.
Actually in principle I agree strongly that women should NOT usurp authority over men.

But again if lazy and/or irresponsible men wont step up to the plate don't be surprised when the women do - allowed or even directed by God to shame cowardly men as with Hulda and Deborah.

Fortunately in my ministry as pastor, deacon or teacher I never had to call upon women to fill a breech (except for contributing to the discussion of the Sunday School lesson).

When the small group movement became popular I was pleased to see women's wisdom in many areas.

 

[Reynolds]

The Hebrew word is pecel literally image. So yes the cherubim were images of angelic beings.

Even pictures (art work) were forbidden under the law.
Numbers 33:52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:

God made exceptions whenever He wanted.
Numbers 21
8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Images? Sure they were, but they were not graven images, AKA idols. Are you Amish? Probably not since you are on the internet.

 

[HankD]

Images? Sure they were, but they were not graven images, AKA idols. Are you Amish? Probably not since you are on the internet.

There is nothing special about the word "graven".

Images of any kind were forbidden (apart from the exceptions).

Deuteronomy 16
21 Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee.
22 Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.

Look again at the command to Moses to make the serpent.

The point is that God does as He pleases and sometimes that includes an exception or change to the rules He has made for mankind.

Now - lest we wonder from the actual point - in the post (#49) that got this debate going I stated the norm for leadership in the church BUT should God want to He could and would make the exception or change as He did with the office of prophetess for Hulda and Deborah.

Look at this verse again:

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Now if you believe this passage literally you could not TODAY allow a woman TO SAY ONE WORD in church otherwise you are being duplicitous or admitting to my point of EXCEPTION.

Are the women in your church allowed to speak once they enter?

 

[Reynolds]

There is nothing special about the word "graven".

Images of any kind were forbidden (apart from the exceptions).

Deuteronomy 16
21 Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee.
22 Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.

Look again at the command to Moses to make the serpent.

The point is that God does as He pleases and sometimes that includes an exception or change to the rules He has made for mankind.

Now - lest we wonder from the actual point - in the post (#49) that got this debate going I stated the norm for leadership in the church BUT should God want to He could and would make the exception or change as He did with the office of prophetess for Hulda and Deborah.

Look at this verse again:

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Now if you believe this passage literally you could not TODAY allow a woman TO SAY ONE WORD in church otherwise you are being duplicitous or admitting to my point of EXCEPTION.

Are the women in your church allowed to speak once they enter?

Hank, you are ignoring context.

If you think the Ark was an Idol, I can't help you.

 

[HankD]

Hank, you are ignoring context.

If you think the Ark was an Idol, I can't help you.

no you can't help me , neither do I need it or want it.

thanks for the debate

HankD

 

[Reynolds]

no you can't help me , neither do I need it or want it.

thanks for the debate

HankD

If you think the Ark was an idol you definitely need some theological help.

 

[HankD]

If you think the Ark was an idol you definitely need some theological help.

An image becomes an idol when worship is directed towards it rather than the LORD:

This happened with the brazen image Moses made which the LORD directed him to make:

2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

The angelic images themselves were not to be worshiped. You know that and you know that I know that.
They were golden material entities of angelic beings normally forbidden for the Hebrews to even own.

You sir lost the debate since you were the first to issue an ad hominem - by innuendo but a slander nonetheless.

nevertheless that is/was not the point of the fact that I was making:
That God makes the rules and changes them as He desires without our approval.

 

[ChurchofChristguy]

If anyone goes back to my post #49 which caused this debate between Reynolds and I you will see I am talking arbitrarily.

As I clearly indicated men and women have different leadership roles in the church.
Actually in principle I agree strongly that women should NOT usurp authority over men.

But again if lazy and/or irresponsible men wont step up to the plate don't be surprised when the women do - allowed or even directed by God to shame cowardly men as with Hulda and Deborah.

Fortunately in my ministry as pastor, deacon or teacher I never had to call upon women to fill a breech (except for contributing to the discussion of the Sunday School lesson).

When the small group movement became popular I was pleased to see women's wisdom in many areas.

Different roles in the church? Or the one hour service? Is church synonymous with assembly?

Is a small group different from the assembly? If so, why? Is not a “small group” gathering in a home much more representative of the NT assembly than our Las Vegas style shows on Sunday am?