World 3:16

[Iconoclast]

Reynolds;

Everyone who believes and submits to the Lordship of Christ.
Of course this is probably headed directly to the "potential atonement" debate.

Well yes indeed. The cross is the center-piece of redemptive history so eventually, we can not leave any stone unturned. We will get there.

10 He was in the world,

and the world was made by him,

and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Now the discussion here in John one goes from light, and world, to HIS OWN

Do you agree that is some sort of reference to national Israel, in contrast to "the world"?





Jn3
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

 

[Reynolds]

Reynolds;


Well yes indeed. The cross is the center-piece of redemptive history so eventually, we can not leave any stone unturned. We will get there.

10 He was in the world,

and the world was made by him,

and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Now the discussion here in John one goes from light, and world, to HIS OWN

Do you agree that is some sort of reference to national Israel, in contrast to "the world"?





Jn3
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

11 primarily references the Children of Israel.

 

[InTheLight]

11 primarily references the Children of Israel.

It does but it's doing it to show a contrast to the entire world, not to make a statement that he was only coming for a particular group of people (i.e. the "elect".) The idea is not only did the world reject him, but so did his own people.

 

[Iconoclast]

11 primarily references the Children of Israel.

Reynolds, Do you notice how much we agree on?
Believers should have more we agree on, than disagree.
Regardless of what position we hold, on any topic, I think walking through it like this is beneficial.
We have set some basic groundwork, now we cal put more things on the table.

 

[Iconoclast]

It does but it's doing it to show a contrast to the entire world, not to make a statement that he was only coming for a particular group of people (i.e. the "elect".) The idea is not only did the world reject him, but so did his own people.

This is in part true.
Let's explore this a bit more.
I suggest before we try and solve the puzzle, let's look at it and raises more concerns.
I will be more specific in a few minutes.

 

[Reynolds]

It does but it's doing it to show a contrast to the entire world, not to make a statement that he was only coming for a particular group of people (i.e. the "elect".) The idea is not only did the world reject him, but so did his own people.

Agreed.
Going forward from Christ advent, yes. Looking back, it is literal.

 

[Reynolds]

Reynolds, Do you notice how much we agree on?
Believers should have more we agree on, than disagree.
Regardless of what position we hold, on any topic, I think walking through it like this is beneficial.
We have set some basic groundwork, now we cal put more things on the table.

Classical Arminians and Calvinists agree on quite a bit. The discussions become difficult when 6 versions of non Calvinists and 8 versions of Calvinists try to each speak for all on their side of the discussion.

 

[Iconoclast]

Classical Arminians and Calvinists agree on quite a bit. The discussions become difficult when 6 versions of non Calvinists and 8 versions of Calvinists try to each speak for all on their side of the discussion.

Agreed again.
This in part is due to different levels of growth and maturity, sometimes a lack of proper study which leads to emotional outbursts and reactions

 

[JonC]

...This in part is due to different levels of growth and maturity, sometimes a lack of proper study which leads to emotional outbursts and reactions

I agree here.

 

[Iconoclast]

InTheLight,

Hello ITL

It does but it's doing it to show a contrast to the entire world

,
I agree in part. What I mean is this one verse by itself is showing that contrast. I do not think in the long run this is going to be the case.let me offer a few reasons why;

Redemptive History as we know it has been progressively revealed by God throughout the 66 books. I think we can frame out not only this verse, but a larger framework, before we try to "solve the puzzle".
Do you agree?

not to make a statement that he was only coming for a particular group of people (i.e. the "elect".)

You already know where I am going to come down on this, as I have not posted in secret.
Now Reynolds and I are trying to walk through and see where we agree and eventually we will get to where we differ,
I think if we all do this we can all profit. If we agree overall or not is up to God, but I think going through and thinking it out will be a helpful exercise.

The idea is not only did the world reject him, but so did his own people.[/

QUOTE]

Yes... The whole cration rejecting it's Creator and His terms.
Now I do notice several things here;

1]you mention HIS PEOPLE. By doing so you allude to other portions of scripture that give you understanding that in contrast to the unbelieving world , God had somewhere identified one nation in particular that he was going to harvest souls from.

As a cal I think of The Covenant promises Gen 12-22, Amos 3, and Deut 7 right away. I think as believers seeking truth we all should think of these portions because they have been clearly revealed;

Deut7;
7 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

Amos3;
Amos 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Hear this word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,

2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

Genesis...the Covenant promises being passed on down through the godly line......

We should all be agreed on these basics to some extent. Do you think I am veering off course because of my backround? or are we in agreement thus far?
Is this raising concerns in your mind, other than you know what direction i am going in.?

 

[Iconoclast]

Agreed.
Going forward from Christ advent, yes. Looking back, it is literal.

I see early on in John's gospel that he agrees with Paul in Romans 1-3 that spiritual death is universal, so the extent of the cure is also intended to go worldwide, not just to be in Israel.
They thought it was only for them because of their privilege;

Romans 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

mt10:
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Acts13:
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[Reynolds]

I see early on in John's gospel that he agrees with Paul in Romans 1-3 that spiritual death is universal, so the extent of the cure is also intended to go worldwide, not just to be in Israel.
They thought it was only for them because of their privilege;

Romans 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

mt10:
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Acts13:
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

I Agree.

 

[Van]

The Apostle John uses the Greek word translated "world" almost exclusively to refer to mankind or the corrupt value system of fallen mankind. Certainly John 1:10 refers to mankind because inorganic earth could not "know" Him. And again in John 3:16 God's love for the world must refer to mankind, because inorganic earth could not "believe" in Him.

In John 1:29 Christ does not take sin away from inorganic earth, but from mankind.
Even John 17:5 could be referring to the creation of mankind.
And also John 17:24 might be referring to before the creation of mankind.
Lastly, John 21:25 might be referring to the structures built by mankind.

In summary, all or almost all of the references in the gospel of John refer to mankind or the corrupt value system of mankind.

 

[percho]

World 3:16

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:17-21

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:20

For the creation (of the world R 1:20) was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;(of redemption?) Rom 8:20 NKJV

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[fn] of a woman, born under law, to redeem those who were under law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Gal 4:4,5

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John 3:16,17

Acts 17:22-31 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Not sure what all this means but do believe it to be relative to the OP.

 

[kyredneck]

...sumthin ain't rite, too much agreein goin on here....

 

[Iconoclast]

...sumthin ain't rite, too much agreein goin on here....

It's like the guy who jumped off the hundred story skyscraper and someone had the window open they heard them on the way down and the guy goes hey how you doing so far so good as he passed the 65th floor

 

[Iconoclast]

Reynolds ,you had posted this link;
The Five articles of Remonstrance refers to the document drawn up in 1610 by the followers of Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609). A "remonstrance" is literally "an expression of opposition or protest," which in this case was a protest against the Calvinist doctrine of predestination contained in the Belgic Confession. Consequently, those followers of Arminius who drafted this protest were given the name "Remonstrants."

This document was condemned as heresy by the reformed churches at the Synod of Dort, 1618-1619. [1]

Let's investigate why it was considered heresy. [so kyred will not get nervous,lol]

Article 1
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also. [2]


Not a bad statement, what do you think here...?

 

[Iconoclast]

The phrase....those who through the grace of the Holy Ghost,shall believe....is a bit vague in its wording.

 

[Iconoclast]

Article 2 is wrong from start to finish

 

[JonC]

Article 2 is wrong from start to finish

Unsubstantiated opinion.